Scorpio runs BF2 on 4K, at 60FPS, outperforms most of the PCs around

So? Nobody cares about bad games because nobody is forced to play bad games and we have long running systems to filter out the trash. It's a non-argument. You've failed to convince anybody why having bad games on a platform somehow invalidates the volume of great games you can play.

The argument that people should ditch the PC for the Scorpio is dumb. I brought up the fact that the library is absolutely massive on the PC as a reason why you shouldn't ditch it for a multiplatform game being slightly better on the Scoprio than your common laptop and you got all bitchy about it. Honestly looking back on it, it was a dumb argument anyways because despite the thread, the PC can play the game better. A moot point to even begin with.

You "called me out" with a non-argument. Literally nothing. It's logic that if a platform has more games then it'll probably have more quality titles. You latched onto that 10k number and tired to say that since "most" of those games were bad, the number is irrelevant, all while ignoring the original reason why I would even say that in the first place. Your inability to see basic logic just astounds me.

At the end of the day it boils down to you arguing a non-point for the past hour while ignoring basic logic.

It's about as accurate I can get without I'm guessing a month of counting haha.

Lol at people thinking console has more games then PC.

They do realize all a console is, is a limited PC box with some exclusives. While PC has it's own exclusives which makes that whole point completely void to start with.

WIth the massive BC solution of PC, 30 year old games can still be played on new PC's. while consoles you are limited towards there respective generations.

Not only that you got emulation.

Litterly all console games can be played on PC besides xbox360/ps3/ps4/xbox one. Because most noteworthy games on those platforms are already playable anyway on PC.

All handheld games with that, all mobile games can be emulated etc.

Not only that by far the biggest games played today that reak in by far the most money are PC games, consoles are not even close. E-sports is a real thing and completely dominated by PC gaming.

Don't get me wrong, consoles are fun for people that have no other options or really dig those few exclusives, but in the grand scheme of things. they are far behind PC's on every front.

Its the PIX developer tool making this possible. MS flexes their software know how letting devs optimize the crap outta existing games for scorpio.

I cant wait til Sunday!

The spins already starting.

'Bu bu bu its 4k60 on MEDIUM'

lawl

As you have clearly stated. "Nobody cares about bad games" If Nobody cares about bad games and the vast majority of your now 20-30K is garbage games then its seems rather pointless to leverage that number. After all "Nobody cares about bad games". BTW I am not here to convince anyone. It maybe best to say that you are. :)

I think you need to re-read the discourse because I did not get bitchy. You did. You got hostile exceptionally fast and reacted to this way too personal.

As I have said numerous times, touting a number that is inflated with mostly bad games is silly. You don't share that view and that is fine.

At the end of the day it boils down to someone loosing their shit and desperately grasping for straws with counter arguments that undermines their perpetual argument and becoming overly hostile while trying to save face nearer the end of the discourse.

Well I originally hit your point with a counter argument and you, or somebody else, brought up how PCs are becoming more like consoles. Thus I brought up the subs in addition to other rebuttals to that also ridiculous argument. That's why.

Frankly since the arguments being made here were so idiotic I forgot who I was replying too.

Honestly you do a lot of talking about vaguely connected "points" about hardware that contribute basically nothing to a thread and I don't think I've ever seen you come to a conclusive point that you were attempting to make.

You derail a lot of threads with that stuff. Nobody, even myself, has any idea how to respond to it as you don't make a point and it's very loosely connected to what was being talked about.

PIX is pretty cool stuff. Way over my head at the moment. I tried using it and I was like "WOW this is awesome but what the hell am I looking at?"

Just because you said this I will, it's not that I don't possess the ability, I could argue you into submission without issue. You simply speak in all knowing absolutes which tells me that you're not only an unreasonable person, you would never concede even if wrong, arguing with you is a fruitless endeavor which is exactly why I wanted to avoid you from the onset.

Here goes.

I don't underestimate how many games the PC gets, but the reality is that most games the PC gets now are Wii level shovelware, numbers don't mean anything when 10/100 games coming to your platform are actually worth looking at. Since Steam decided in 2012 to open the floodgates to lesser developers the platform has become flooded with undesirable nonsense, and I am not even talking about bad games that made an attempt at being something, I am simply talking about cash grabbing minimal effort shovelware, things that have no business being sold through official channels such a Steam. As far as I am concerned these things don't even exist, and shouldn't, what I used to consider the best platform on PC has been ruined by a sea of hot garbage.

When you get that out of the way you begin to see what I am talking about, in terms of actual games, things people from all walks of life would actually want to play, things people want to buy, consoles get nearly all of those titles but the systems are actually curated and run approval like Steam pre-2012 and the junk I am specifying is mostly filtered out. What you see when you look at a PlayStation 4 or Xbox One library are libraries composed of a 90 percentile of playing viability, when you look at something like Steam it is literally the polar opposite with a 10 percentile of viability, Steam from 2005-2011 echoed exactly what Sony and Microsoft do with their platforms, and it was far better then.

I'll concede that though, PC gets more games, but in terms of games that actually pose a real worth in existing, consoles get almost all of them. You can have the numbers, but contextually they mean almost nothing.

-----------------------

PC gaming hasn't fallen completely, but it's not anywhere as good as it once was, the glory of owning a PC was the realization that you owned something which was churning out games that were starkly different graphically than what a console was capable of doing, something that was impossible on a console. That was almost the entire justification for constantly upgrading your hardware, now it has become solely a metric of having higher framerates, slightly better graphics settings and higher resolutions, which mind you was important then as well, however it's almost entirely devoid of the massive leap in graphics themselves which was the biggest focal point of PC gaming.

Then you come to the high level games that only PC got, those simply don't exist anymore, we get console ports now. Those games that were meant to push the system, meant for the platform in particular, meant to actually justify the money you were spending, they're just not there. Crysis was the PC's final opus, after that consoles and PC have become inseparably intertwined.

Frankly I don't understand people like you, it's like you intentionally ignore all of this and even think who you're talking to are console gamers, or only that because we don't submit to your concrete stance, I'm not, I've been PC gaming for over 25 years, my Steam account is about to round 14 years old, I've been around the block and fully understand the state of things. You can call it an industry change because that's exactly what it is, but this said industry change has been regressive for PC in every capacity while consoles have become progressive and gained massive ground on PC's, enough to where they are a viable option in place of that.

In 1998 if someone said I'm going to buy a console instead of a PC they would get laughed out of the room, in 2017 it can actually be rationalized, that alone is a tell at how far this platform has fallen.

You can't afford to look like a mad man. :)

@Pedro: I think you need to get a grip on basic logic what I was trying to say. It's pointless continuing this "debate" if you keep sticking your head in the sand and ignoring basic stuff.

Also you're clearly here to convince me since you keep responding so just don't give me that shit.

And you can't afford to troll a mod.

You went there. Not me.

Only warning.

Don't hate me for pointing out the cracks in your logic.

I am responding because I can. :)

LoL this thread was fun to read.

Having shovelware is one of many results of a successful platform where developers are making lots of money (or trying to). The PS2 had a lot, the Wii and so does PC. I do however think that shovelware (percentage wise) can give people a negative perception of the platform as people tend to focus more on the bad than good. This reduces consumer confidence and when people stop buying games the market crashes.

I'm biased against mobile gaming (trash) but the reason that PC and Mobile don't crash despite their high volume of releases (some good but mostly bad) is the fact that the storefronts are making customized recommendations based on a buyers purchase and review history. If the stores keep recommending you games that you like and are most likely going to review well, the perception of quality goes up.

Shovelware is not a good point to argue. Consoles have a small upfront cost which is why people gravitate to them. Much like Fremium games small short term cost and publishers get money back later when the software audience scales in size.

@gordonfreeman: Let me just break this down by paragraphs.

1: Not an argument. Same argument Pedro was trying to make by somehow shifting the argument to games nobody cares about while ignoring the volumes of games that people do play.

2: Ignoring the most played games of all TIME which are on the PC. Currently League of Legends is the most played game, DotA 2 is behind that with games like World of Warcraft behind it. Playerunknown Battleground has scored 2 million sales in early access and is absolutely dominating the streaming scene.

People care about PC games. You just seem to be oblivious to which ones. When you say "almost all of them", you're excluding a small number of unbelievably popular titles that never showed up on consoles. Phenomenons only ever experienced on the PC. It's a deflection, a poor one at that.

3: You contradicted yourself completely in the first two sentences. PC gaming hasn't fallen yet it's not as good as it used to be? So what it is?

4: High level PC games do exist. Star Citizen is a thing. Games like Witcher 3 on the PC are basically completely different graphical games. Check this link to see just how absolutely different the version of Witcher 3 was from the console versions. There's also the Total War series which absolutely punishes both GPU and CPUs.

High level PC games were always rare. They still are. Very few devs want to risk it all targeting higher end PCs. Nothing has changed in that department.

BTW, I don't see Unreal Tournament on the consoles which pushes GPUs pretty damn hard.

5: You need to realize you're speaking to somebody who also owns a PS4 Pro and Xbox One. I defend consoles when they need defending, and often it's from rabid PC fanboys who say there is absolutely no reason to own a console. Consoles and PCs have both advanced in numerous ways. I can't even tell you the last time I bought a physical PC game. Also, during the majority of this thread I was playing Elite Dangerous with a Saitek X-55 and TrackIR on a 144hz/1440p monitor with g-sync. Are you honestly telling me that PCs haven't advanced? None of that tech existed 5 years ago.

6: I was never once rationalizing a casual gamer picking a PC over a console in anything in this thread. That is yet again another stretch you made. However this is System Wars and we're talking gamers. I would never once dream of somehow arguing that a PC is going to be preferred as a gaming platform to your average person. That's insanity and defies all of the observable evidence we have. However that's not really the point of this thread is it? In the OP it directly called out PCs in comparison of a future console we don't even have any actual benchmarks of. That's what I was responding too.

@Ghost120x: Trash doesn't get made on the consoles like it gets made on the PC and mobile because of the additional fees that a developer must pay just to develop and publish a game on a console. It's a winning strategy to keep the crap off of the console. Nintendo did the same thing with the "seal of approval" because, prior to the internet, there was no good way for the common consumer to filter out the junk.

Today it's a different story. Lots of shit gets thrown out on the mobile platforms and PC, but we have filtering tools. It's really not an issue today.

They are NOT vaguely "points" about hardware since Anandtech like sites has focused on Maxwell/Pascal's Pixel Engine connection with 2 MB/3MB L2 cache advantage.

After AMD has announced Vega's Pixel Engine connection with L2 cache marketing PR, NVIDIA has decided to officially reveal Maxwell and Pascal's L2 cache render booster.

Anandtech has inquired about L2 cache render booster and NVIDIA has remained silent until GTX 1080 Ti's official L2 cache render booster reveal which is after Vega's L2 cache render booster reveal.

NVIDIA was silent on L2 cache render booster despite the fact Maxwell GPUs has this design feature along time ago.

------------

After AMD has announced Shader Intrinsic Functions marketing PR with Doom 2016, NVIDIA has decided to officially reveal thier Shader Intrinsic Functions that was included with NVAPI along time ago.

One should understand the reasons for NVIDIA's NDA.

WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR POINT?!

Seriously man. You need to learn how to convey some sort of a point. It's just fucking annoying trying to decipher your posts.

You literally did not even come up with an actual point you were trying to make with this response. I have no clue what the hell you are trying to say. Nobody here has a clue what you're trying to say because you don't say anything.

If NVIDIA is silent about something and hidden under NDA, that's one of their secret sauce.

This is pretty easy to understand.

Pixel Shader and ROPS workloads are superior with L2 cache connection. Forza wet track has smashed AMD's ROPS into memory controller bottleneck!

There are multiple 3D engines with the same problem e.g. Unreal Engine 4, CryEngine 3 and 'etc'.

His point is very clear because

Halo 5G is not yet available on PC.

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@ronvalencia:I still don't get your point. What does it have to do with Scorpio running BF2 at 4K and better than "most" PCs registered with Steam? What does Forza and Nvidia have to do with Battlefront?

@Pedro: Those budget PC builds make me laugh. They are so terrible. That CPU is going to bottleneck the shit out of any properly multithreaded game, of which most new ones are. I never argued that PC gaming was cheap, in fact I argue that most cheap PCs suck ass.

Also I own Halo 5. The PC missing out on that is not a big loss.

You missed my tease, I was just regurgitating a previous post by Ronvalancia.

He is probably Autistic. In his mind... all these flow charts, graphs, spreadsheets, infographics, etc. all make sense, and he is trying to convey a message with them. Unfortunately, the message is lost to most and we don't know WTF he is going on about and how it relates to the topic at hand.

They make sense to me too actually, but I'm not autistic.

1. I'm telling you the basic background reasons on why Scorpio hardware is better than mainstream RX-480/RX-580 class PC GPUs.

2. Rendering to 2MB L2 cache is not limited to a single 3D engine. It pretty simple, If NVIDIA done it, then it's good e.g. rendering to 2MB L2 cache and NVIDIA has results to prove it.

Unified Shader workloads are mostly about iterative shader loop, hence tighter (low latency) the loop = better effective performance for most 3D engines.

I've been pretty convinced about this also, not to talk down to him disparagingly or anything, but it does seem like the kind of behavior.

Pentium G4560 Kabylake has 4 threads with 2 CPU cores hence it's like last generation's Skylake i3.

At 4K resolution, the bottleneck is most likely be the GPU not the CPU.

My point with Pentium G4560/GTX 1070 PC build is for "bang per buck" arguments.

We already know consumers can spend $$$$$$$$$$$ to beat Scorpio.

It's simple to claim Scorpio has GTX 980 Ti like solution and leave it as that, then some poster will claim Scorpio is just RX-480 OC while implying MS sat on RX-480 like solution for more than a year doing absolutely nothing. In the meantime, the old R9-390X beats RX-480 at 4K LOL

So, what happen between Hawaii XT's year 2013 release to end of year 2016 (first Scorpio's first working silicon)?

Major mobile GPU vendors has render-to-L2 cache design for a few years not just Nvidia. AMD and Intel are last GPU companies that haven't adopted render-to-L2 cache design.

See... simple and to the point. You should always start your posts like that. Then you can elaborate in depth (if necessary) once you have made your point. For the record, the autistic comment was not to put you down. Many autistic people are super intelligent, but their brains work differently and they have trouble communicating. Your communication is not always easy to comprehend. It seems like you just post a lot of stuff and it is often a waste of time to go through it as there is no guarantee it will make any sense. So, quickly make a point and explain how the other stuff backs it up.

My first pass reading with DF's Scorpio reveal and my conclusion was mostly memory bandwidth increase until I noticed MS's side comment on 2 MB L2 cache usage for 4K rendering.

I know RX-480 OC's 6 TFLOPS was memory bandwidth bottle-necked which is the main complaint for PS4 Pro's 4K rendering issues and Forza wet track has tons of alpha blending effects which are ROPS based effects. I also know current AMD GPU's ROPS are not connected to L2 cache unlike Maxwell GPUs. realworldtech.com has discovered the difference between NV Maxwell and AMD GCN rendering behavior and this is many months before Pascal. NVIDIA has kept silent with render to L2 cache feature during the Maxwell's life time i.e. has refused to answer regarding this design feature.

Geforce GTX 980 Ti has 337 Gbps memory bandwidth with render to 2MB L2 cache design which RX-480 OC doesn't have these features.

The puzzle came together with more than 300 Gbps memory bandwidth GPU allocation and render to 2MB L2 cache usage, then I recalled Phil Spencer's statement on GTX 980 like GPU design for Scorpio, hence why I made my own conclusion for GTX 980 Ti class performance i.e. I didn't instantly believe DF's GTX 1070/Fury X's class claims and I need to know some basic framework for this performance level and low level APIs doesn't change ROPS and memory bandwidth bottlenecks i.e. memory bandwidth increase is just half the answer.

AMD is pretty good with cloning somebody's hardware when they know the competitor's secret sauce e.g. Ryzen is a close clone to Intel Haswell CPUs

Hello all, I also like Scorpio but I want to know that Is it perfect to play Tekken7 game? Please give your suggestion. I bought my PC after seeing the reviews on https://gamingbuff.com/.

Well this thread blew up, but not in the way I expected it to lol.

1) the scorpio is not coming anywhere near close to a 980 ti gpu solution. It's a 970 at best. ( let alone a 1080 what the other guy was talking about lol )

2) amd tflops mean nothing and specially with low profile cpu's it means even less. a 3,4tflop nvidia gpu trounces a amd gpu of 5flops.

3) Unless they pay some heavy bribes towards company's to push there games towards the scorpio as main platform, honestly nobody is going to care even the slightest about ( developers ) using anything special the scorpio might have. They will ram the game on it scale the resolution up until it shokes and done. We saw this on the ps4 pro already.

So that's completely useless

4) scorpio has a 400% increase on gpu performance over the ps4, yet only 50% cpu performance. Good luck with drawdistance, pop in everywhere or terrible performance.

The scorpio gpu is practically a 480gtx, which a bit more rops lower clock speed however so it equals out.

At 4k benchmark ( heavily favoring amd, because there drivers are terrible for lower resolutions and weaker cpu's )

DX 12 benchmark ( heavily favoring AMD ) as most if not all games are still builded around DX11 solutions which nvidia trounces amd in.

So even at the best solutions, high resolution 4k ( less cpu overhead ) and dx12 ( again less cpu impact ) AMD is barely able to defeat or not even hit 970 performance which is from what i remember a 3,4tflop nvidia gpu.

A 980ti = 5,6tflop, and a 1080ti = 11,3tflop. The scorpio is miles and miles away from the 980ti performance wise.

I have zero interest in game performance comparisons, because most of those benches are heavily crippled by drivers or money bribes by company's which feature terrible optimizations which favor one over the other.

You'll be eating a lot of crow.

It has become very clear that this Gen is aging way faster then anyone thought and the rising of PC has shown it's increase since the start of PS4/Xbox One arrival.

Mighty Scorpio Murderous Stinger Inbound, yeah baby, yeah!!! :P

Mark my words: The greatest system EVAR.

Well that's pretty obvious, as the game won't be on Steam ^^

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. First we need to see lots of gameplay before passing on judgment.

Pretty much, 970 isn't much these days and it was never designed to run stuff at higher resolutions, I'm expecting the Scorpio deliver above 980, closer to 980ti

I'll be honest here. I'm already hoping I get a decent amount for trade in on my xbox one S 2 tb model towards the Scorpio. Looks to be a good system if the price isn't crazy high.

Captain Ron has now been promoted to Colonel Ron by me the SP....

Lololol :P

Well most PC are no even stronger than the Pro on steam,so scorpio is even higher that doesn't say much,i want to see head to head comparison with the 1070gtx both frames and quality wise.

The secret sauce strike again..

Forza is a shitty optimized game,and is not impressive in any way,wait until BF2 arrives and see how it fares vs the 1070 so you can make more shitty post.

You don't need to quadruple cache to hit 4k,many GPU do it already,this is nothing more than PR from MS,just like ESRAM was and the 209GB/s which you ride many times and that serve the xbox one for nothing.

MS it self claim 720p games on xbox one could use checkerboard rendering dude,so it came from MS it self.

Not all games will be 4k native on scorpio.

People still think the 970 is a gold-standard for GPU's lol. Don't get me wrong, it's a very decent card but it came out almost 3 years ago.

Well, this was an interesting thread. On the subject of PC game numbers, not only can you play the entire back catalogue, which includes some of the greatest games of all time, but there's also emulation. I have no way to hook up my Snes or Megadrive, but I can play all the games on PC, opening up another enormous catalogue of classic titles.

As for crappy games, of course there are more on PC but that's an inevitable consequence of a more open platform, and it's not exactly hard to avoid them. I would argue that it's fantastic for the future of the game industry that there's been a huge rise recently in amateur developers, able to easily release titles independently. It's resulted in some real emerging talent.

@gordonfreeman said:

@Ghost120x said:

"Jaguar" cpu bottleneck says no? Unless assets used are of middle quality.

It's not a Jaguar, it's based off of one but it's modified, to what extent who knows, it could be heavily. Also don't forget about the DirectX 12 module built into the hardware which parses drawcalls down to only 9-11 from what would be hundreds of thousands of instructions the CPU would be processing that it no longer has to.

Yes it is stop your denial it is a jaguar with the same modifications found on xbox one as well done to the command processor no amount of customization would turn a jaguar into an i7 or Ryzen if AMD could do that they would be KINGS now selling cheap ass jaguars that perform like i7,the tech inside scorpio isn't MS is AMD.

So yeah it is a jaguar bumped 31% clock speed wise with the same modification,and yes it will bottlenect the GPU in certain scenarios,just like bigger FX series CPU from AMD bottleneck many GPU and intel showed better performance in many tests.

DX12 is built into the xbox one as well confirmed by MS it self,DX12 is not magic and on consoles is basically redundant DX12 is nothing more than several API done on consoles for years ported to PC,including that command processor modification which MS has been doing since the 360 days.

Just like the PS4 doesn't need DX12 either and its API are even lower level than MS DX12.

IN fact even MS admit that gains are totally dependent on game,so it change on a game by game basis.

Stop man fu**Ing stop Phil Spencer is just a face on the xbox,the real decision come from higher pay grade than his,and he already admit that he was part of the weak sauce xbox one specs,trying to portrait Phil as the savior of the xbox one is a joke,he was part of all the bad things MS did and he ADMIT IT SO even if you can't admit it.

You use Phil Spencer quote where he claim to go in a different direction than the Pro to claim Ryzen,Vega and FP16 inside scorpio and you where WRONG YOU FAILED YOU WERE WRONG AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE DECENCY TO ADMIT IT.

Si anything you say about Phil should be taken with a ocean full of salt.

Scorpio is Polaris with some vega modification that don't turn it into a true Vega GPU,just like the Pro,it doesn't use Ryzen but a cheap ass Jaguar with the same modification done on xbox one,if 2.1ghz bottleneck the Pro 2.3 would bottleneck a 6TF even more.

Scorpio has 43% more power than the Pro with just 10% more CPU it is an official bottleneck and time will give me the reason as it has done until now vs your delusional arguments.

Remember the Pro Exceed scorpio it has FP16 which turn 4.2TF into 8.4TF just like you claim scorpio was 12TF with FP16..Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

When you OC your CPU and it give you instantly 10FPS you damn well know it is bottlenecking your GPU.

This is a full blown FX8370 which is a higher IPC than Jaguar and stronger and faster,and when even OC the competition still is 34FPS abode you you damn sure know that you are totally hold back by your CPU.

This is what Ronvalencia want to ignore,a jaguar -Puma CPU will never EVEEEEEEEERRRRRR get the same amount of performance from a 6TF GPU than an i5 6600k will or a newer Ryzen,scorpio 6TF GPU will be bottleneck in some scenarios no question about it just like the pro.