Sony refusing to take loss on PS4, $500-$600 price expected

They state that it won't be a major loss. This implies that there will be a loss, but we just don't know how much, other than it not being "major" to Sony.

[QUOTE="blackace"][QUOTE="robotapple"]

I remember when Sony used to care about gamers and take big losses on all their consoles. Sad to see this.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/155521-playtation-4-sony-announces-the-ps4-wont-be-sold-at-loss

tormentos

Based on what the PS4 will cost $650 to make...

This is the 10 time i ask you this.....:lol:

The PS4 is build using cheap ass hardware,the only thing expensive or close is GDDR5,because even the CPU and GPU on an APU are say to be cheap.

I think not having a new disc format will hurt PS4's chances to break through.

This and Nintendos awful start puts MS in a dream position. Let's see what they'll do with it.

SuperFlakeman

You don't think it'll cost $650 to make? You're nuts. Cheap ass hardware is that new PS3 Slim. That's CHEAP!! Probably cost them $150-$175 to make that piece of crap. The PS4 will be cheaper to make then the PS3, but I doubt it'll be less then $650. The controller along is probably $65. blackace

The xbox 360 with a top of the line GPU did not cost $650 dollars to make back on 2006,and it had a amn 3 core CPU that was un heard of on PC,WTF i don't even know how some of you can think the PS4 would cost $650 to make..

The controller will be $65 to you,to sony i don't think so,much like Kinect was $59 for MS but for you it was $150.

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]I don't know why anybody is expecting it to be $600. There is nothing cutting edge in the box.Wasdie

The APU is pretty cutting edge. But the point of the APU is to be cheaper yet more powerful. So cutting edge is defined by price vs. performance.

PS4's APU wouldn't be the cutting edge when AMD Volcanic Islands (large scale APU) arrives sometime in Q4 2013.

AMD Volcanic Islands is a reverse fusion i.e. starting from a large GPU with glued CPUs and it targets NVIDIA Maxwell APU and Intel Xeon Phli APUs.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/AMD-erupt-Volcanic-Islands-GPUs-early-Q4-2013

Technically, a Volcanic Island GPU would be an oversized PS4 within an add-in card. This could give AMD an edge, particularly in games ported to the PC from the Playstation.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130404143508_TSMC_Is_Ahead_of_Its_Own_20nm_Roadmap_Report.html

In case all goes well, then TSMC will be able to manufacture 20nm chips in commercial volumes starting late this year.

How arrogants are some lemmings trying to bash PS3s price ( which i didnt like also ) when the ones that bought Xbox360 on release , 2005/6 ( 8 years ago ) , paid 50$$ per year just to play online ( 50x8=400$ ) ... How lame is that ?!! haha Give kudos to Sony .. They had some really rough times latetly ( last 5 years or so ) , with billions of loses and bad sales in many divisions ( TVs etc ) but they STILL provided , even now as we speak , solid support to their consumers.. unlike some others...guh guh ... Nintendo. So please guys .. WHAT THE .. !

How arrogants are some lemmings trying to bash PS3s price ( which i didnt like also ) when the ones that bought Xbox360 on release , 2005/6 ( 8 years ago ) , paid 50$$ per year just to play online ( 50x8=400$ ) ... How lame is that ?!! haha Give kudos to Sony .. They had some really rough times latetly ( last 5 years or so ) , with billions of loses and bad sales in many divisions ( TVs etc ) but they STILL provided , even now as we speak , solid support to their consumers.. unlike some others...guh guh ... Nintendo. So please guys .. WHAT THE .. !

AzatiS

No problems since Cows wouldn't mind working a second job to pay for their beloved toys...

No problems since Cows wouldn't mind working a second job to pay for their beloved toys...

TheXFiles88

I have some really really good advice on how Sony can improve PS.  They should kill the Vita, Playstation Mobile and just focus on the PS4.  Sony is spreading themselves too thin and can't do a good job on all their platforms. 

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]I don't know why anybody is expecting it to be $600. There is nothing cutting edge in the box.ronvalencia

The APU is pretty cutting edge. But the point of the APU is to be cheaper yet more powerful. So cutting edge is defined by price vs. performance.

PS4's APU wouldn't be the cutting edge when AMD Volcanic Islands (large scale APU) arrives sometime in Q4 2013.

AMD Volcanic Islands is a reverse fusion i.e. starting from a large GPU with glued CPUs and it targets NVIDIA Maxwell APU and Intel Xeon Phli APUs.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/AMD-erupt-Volcanic-Islands-GPUs-early-Q4-2013

Technically, a Volcanic Island GPU would be an oversized PS4 within an add-in card. This could give AMD an edge, particularly in games ported to the PC from the Playstation.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130404143508_TSMC_Is_Ahead_of_Its_Own_20nm_Roadmap_Report.html

In case all goes well, then TSMC will be able to manufacture 20nm chips in commercial volumes starting late this year.

Considering low ass adoption rates on PC i estimates that if the tech survive it will catch on by 2017 probably...

my guess is a $429 base and a $500 deluxe or whatever you want to call the upgrade.

[QUOTE="I_can_haz"]It's most likely gonna be $399 for base model and $499 for premium. When they say they don't plan to take losses it doesn't mean it's gonna be $599, rather it means they won't be making the PS4 with expensive complicated tech like they did with the PS3. It's funny how stupid lems like the OP assume they mean it will be $599.blackace

Exactly what I am expecting as well. Which means the money I save from the PS3 to the top model PS4 is almost enough to buy an extra game.. and I'm cool with that.

seeing is believing. if they did do that, kaz should fire everyone working for the gaming division, including himself

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

The APU is pretty cutting edge. But the point of the APU is to be cheaper yet more powerful. So cutting edge is defined by price vs. performance.

tormentos

PS4's APU wouldn't be the cutting edge when AMD Volcanic Islands (large scale APU) arrives sometime in Q4 2013.

AMD Volcanic Islands is a reverse fusion i.e. starting from a large GPU with glued CPUs and it targets NVIDIA Maxwell APU and Intel Xeon Phli APUs.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/AMD-erupt-Volcanic-Islands-GPUs-early-Q4-2013

Technically, a Volcanic Island GPU would be an oversized PS4 within an add-in card. This could give AMD an edge, particularly in games ported to the PC from the Playstation.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130404143508_TSMC_Is_Ahead_of_Its_Own_20nm_Roadmap_Report.html

In case all goes well, then TSMC will be able to manufacture 20nm chips in commercial volumes starting late this year.

Considering low ass adoption rates on PC i estimates that if the tech survive it will catch on by 2017 probably...

Games (via Valve's Steam) are not the only PC application type for AMD/NVIDIA GPUs.

From http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405922,00.asp

XBox Yukon specs for 20nm or 28nm APU solution i.e. MS wasn't sure if 20 nm based APU would be ready in time, hence 28 nm based fallback.

Volcanic Islands = 20 nm based product lines.

Southern Islands, Sea Islands = 28 nm based product lines. It looks like Sea Islands flagship desktop gpu was cancelled.

[QUOTE="robotapple"]

I remember when Sony used to care about gamers and take big losses on all their consoles. Sad to see this.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/155521-playtation-4-sony-announces-the-ps4-wont-be-sold-at-loss

joel_c17

[QUOTE="tormentos"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

PS4's APU wouldn't be the cutting edge when AMD Volcanic Islands (large scale APU) arrives sometime in Q4 2013.

AMD Volcanic Islands is a reverse fusion i.e. starting from a large GPU with glued CPUs and it targets NVIDIA Maxwell APU and Intel Xeon Phli APUs.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/AMD-erupt-Volcanic-Islands-GPUs-early-Q4-2013

Technically, a Volcanic Island GPU would be an oversized PS4 within an add-in card. This could give AMD an edge, particularly in games ported to the PC from the Playstation.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20130404143508_TSMC_Is_Ahead_of_Its_Own_20nm_Roadmap_Report.html

In case all goes well, then TSMC will be able to manufacture 20nm chips in commercial volumes starting late this year.

ronvalencia

Considering low ass adoption rates on PC i estimates that if the tech survive it will catch on by 2017 probably...

Games (via Valve's Steam) are not the only PC application type for AMD/NVIDIA GPUs.

From http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405922,00.asp

XBox Yukon specs for 20nm or 28nm APU solution i.e. MS wasn't sure if 20 nm based APU would be ready in time, hence 28 nm based fallback.

Volcanic Islands = 20 nm based product lines.

Southern Islands, Sea Islands = 28 nm based product lines. It looks like Sea Islands flagship desktop gpu was cancelled.

ssshhh don't tell eltormo that the xbox is based on volcanic islands the dude will have a nervous breakdown :(

ssshhh don't tell eltormo that the xbox is based on volcanic islands the dude will have a nervous breakdown :(

HaRmLeSS_RaGe

[QUOTE="blackace"] You don't think it'll cost $650 to make? You're nuts. Cheap ass hardware is that new PS3 Slim. That's CHEAP!! Probably cost them $150-$175 to make that piece of crap. The PS4 will be cheaper to make then the PS3, but I doubt it'll be less then $650. The controller along is probably $65. tormentos

The xbox 360 with a top of the line GPU did not cost $650 dollars to make back on 2006,and it had a amn 3 core CPU that was un heard of on PC,WTF i don't even know how some of you can think the PS4 would cost $650 to make..

The controller will be $65 to you,to sony i don't think so,much like Kinect was $59 for MS but for you it was $150.

[QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

No problems since Cows wouldn't mind working a second job to pay for their beloved toys...

Murderstyle75

[QUOTE="HaRmLeSS_RaGe"]

ssshhh don't tell eltormo that the xbox is based on volcanic islands the dude will have a nervous breakdown :(

tormentos

Yes I know I kid :)

VG leaks specs aren't entirely correct though either :cool:

[QUOTE="Murderstyle75"][QUOTE="TheXFiles88"]

No problems since Cows wouldn't mind working a second job to pay for their beloved toys...

blackace

[QUOTE="HaRmLeSS_RaGe"]

ssshhh don't tell eltormo that the xbox is based on volcanic islands the dude will have a nervous breakdown :(

tormentos

"Yukon" is not "Durango". With AMD Volcanic Islands, the GPUs are already APUs which can replace SeaIslands based APUs.

1/4 of 4096 stream processors (AMD Hawaii) would be 1024 stream processor based SKU which is equivalent to 16 CUs in GCN 1.x format. This potential 97x0 SKU replaces 77x0. This could be a logical upgrade to Sea Islands based 7790 (14 CUs).

1/2 of 4096 stream processors (AMD Hawaii) would be 2048 stream processor based SKU which is equivalent to 32 CUs in GCN 1.x format. This potential 9870 SKU replaces 7870. This could be a logical upgrade to Southern Islands based 7870 XT (24 CUs, AMD Tahiti LE). The lesser 9850 could replace 7870 GE (20 CU, AMD Pitcairn). This upgrade is similar flagship 5870 to mid-high 6870 shift i.e. 7970's performance levels shift to mid-high.

Based on the past Xbox 360, MS uses cutting-edge GPU designs with around 90-to-100 watts.

PS4's Southern/Sea Island based APU could still end up slightly faster than AMD VI based Xbox Next i.e. assuming if MS stays in 97x0 based SKU and it's 1/4 of AMD Hawaii.

The danger part would be if Radeon HD 9770 SKU has 5 CUs (each CU having 256 stream processors).

Without the flagship AMD VI SKU, the older SI/CI GCNs are still capable to rival AMD VI GCNs.

-----------------------

On instruction set side, the current wave front instruction issue is 64 ALU element wide which is processed in 4 cycles from 16 ALUs within a CU. Current CU has four 16 ALU lines i.e. 4 wave fronts in 4 cycles per CU.

With VI's 256 processors per CU model, it could process a single 64 ALU element wave front in a single cycle. AMD VI's CU would have four lines of 64 ALUs.

AMD GCN software would remain mostly unchanged.

[QUOTE="blackace"] You don't think it'll cost $650 to make? You're nuts. Cheap ass hardware is that new PS3 Slim. That's CHEAP!! Probably cost them $150-$175 to make that piece of crap. The PS4 will be cheaper to make then the PS3, but I doubt it'll be less then $650. The controller along is probably $65. tormentos

The xbox 360 with a top of the line GPU did not cost $650 dollars to make back on 2006,and it had a amn 3 core CPU that was un heard of on PC,WTF i don't even know how some of you can think the PS4 would cost $650 to make..

The controller will be $65 to you,to sony i don't think so,much like Kinect was $59 for MS but for you it was $150.

mad?

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="tormentos"]

Considering low ass adoption rates on PC i estimates that if the tech survive it will catch on by 2017 probably...

tormentos

Games (via Valve's Steam) are not the only PC application type for AMD/NVIDIA GPUs.

From http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405922,00.asp

XBox Yukon specs for 20nm or 28nm APU solution i.e. MS wasn't sure if 20 nm based APU would be ready in time, hence 28 nm based fallback.

Volcanic Islands = 20 nm based product lines.

Southern Islands, Sea Islands = 28 nm based product lines. It looks like Sea Islands flagship desktop gpu was cancelled.

You like to quote steam stats in the past.

Xbox "Yukon" is for 20 nm product linkage with AMD VI and 28nm backup plan.

If we go for the top end 8X over Xbox 360's GPU (240 GFLOPs) we end up with 1920 GFLOPs, which AMD VI based APU can easily deliver i.e. it only needs 1/4 of AMD Hawaii @ 1Ghz. AMD 7790 @ 1Ghz only delivers 1792 GFLOPs and it's in 28nm process tech.

Sony could easily counter it with 900Mhz version i.e. Sony haven't shown the final PS4 hardware. We only have AMD's statement on PS4's "nearly 2 TFLOPs" (1).

1. http://community.amd.com/community/amd-blogs/amd-unprocessed/blog/2013/02/21/amd-and-the-sony-ps4-allow-me-to-elaborate

It could be have 1990 GFLOPs. I take AMD's offical leaks over VG leaks.

"next-generation AMD Radeon graphics delivering nearly 2 TFLOPS of compute performance" - AMD

Lets see. Before the PS3 launched Sony publically came out and said 'We want you to work for it'. Sony Fan said, 'It won't be $600'.

Now Sony comes out and says, 'We won't be taking a loss like we did on PS3'. Sony Fan says, 'It won't be $600'.

It is almost sad how delusional Sony Fan is. I would cry but I am to busy laughing.

kuu2

It doesn't need to be Sony. PS4's APU chip size is similar to AMD Trinity APU (older 32nm process tech with inefficient/large Piledriver CPU cores).

Sony's APU has a modern photo mask design for ~250 mm^2 chip.

The first gen PS3's total chip size for RSX and CELL is about 488 mm^2.

[QUOTE="SuperFlakeman"]

I think not having a new disc format will hurt PS4's chances to break through.

This and Nintendos awful start puts MS in a dream position. Let's see what they'll do with it.

Chutebox

They now have blu-ray according to rumors, so it's a +1 for MS that the field is leveled.

It actually doesn't sound too bad, I certainly don't want a cheap-made system.CJ_ofCamelot

[QUOTE="CJ_ofCamelot"]It actually doesn't sound too bad, I certainly don't want a cheap-made system.AD216

If sony doesn't want to take a loss on the PS4 I don't think there are going to sell it at 400 dollars. Console are sold at a loss and are made up by licensing of their platform.

If sony doesn't want to take a loss on the PS4 I don't think there are going to sell it at 400 dollars. Console are sold at a loss and are made up by licensing of their platform.

TheFadeForever

[QUOTE="TheFadeForever"]

If sony doesn't want to take a loss on the PS4 I don't think there are going to sell it at 400 dollars. Console are sold at a loss and are made up by licensing of their platform.

ronvalencia

[QUOTE="tormentos"]

[QUOTE="blackace"] They are still going to lose money on it. That's a fact. I think what Sony is saying is that they aren't going to lose the billions they lose with the PS3. The PS4 probably won't cost $800 to make. Probably closer to $650. I see the system selling between $450 - $550. It definitely won't sell for $400 unless Sony decides to pull some things out of the system. blackace

Based on what the PS4 will cost $650 to make...

This is the 10 time i ask you this.....:lol:

The PS4 is build using cheap ass hardware,the only thing expensive or close is GDDR5,because even the CPU and GPU on an APU are say to be cheap.

PS4's APU IP blocks are cheap i.e. near ARM Cortex A15 chip size AMD Jaguar IP + AMD Pitcairn level GPU IP.

$139 retail pays for

1. AMD Pitcairn ASIC (16 CU enabled with 4 disabled CUs). AMD pays for the entire chip regardless of the disabled units.

2. 256bit wired PCB.

3. 1 GB GDDR5 VRAM

2011 era GDDR5 cost http://www.abload.de/img/gpuq3280ufv.png

$18.45 per 1024 MB or $129.15 for 7 GB GDDR5 (at 2011 prices).

Let say 7850 replaces 6850 i.e. $106 cost. A memory + GPU combined $106 + $129.15 = $235.15

8 core AMD Jaguar has chip size 41.6 mm^2 i.e. near half the size of AMD Ontario APU's chip size i.e. $29.99 for AMD E-350 APU. Let say it's $16 for 8 core AMD Jaguar.

For estimated PS4 APU, $106 + $129.15 + $16 = $251.15. IF AMD has two IPs (i.e. CPU, GPU) for the price of one tactics, then it's would be cheaper.

NVIDIA or Intel wouldn't be able to compete against AMD on "get two IPs for price of one IP" tactics.

AMD Jaguar APUs ussually includes southbridge IP i.e. SoC.

$399 box is possible. AMD is good at cheap DX11.1 level HD gaming machines.

I'm guessing $449.99. I hope that Sony learned there lesson last time.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="TheFadeForever"]

If sony doesn't want to take a loss on the PS4 I don't think there are going to sell it at 400 dollars. Console are sold at a loss and are made up by licensing of their platform.

I_can_haz

Note that AMD Volcanic Island GPU could double as APUs i.e. it has embedded CPU type cores for off-load serial processing.

http://www.techpowerup.com/183704/amds-answer-to-geforce-gtx-700-series-volcanic-islands.html

[QUOTE="I_can_haz"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] One can assemble a PC with Radeon HD 7850 for around $400 and that's with large chip size AMD Piledriver. Around Q4 2013, AMD Volcanic Island GPU range replaces AMD's Southern/Sea Island PC GPU range. ronvalencia

Note that AMD Volcanic Island GPU could double as APUs i.e. it has embedded CPU type cores for off-load serial processing.

http://www.techpowerup.com/183704/amds-answer-to-geforce-gtx-700-series-volcanic-islands.html