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[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]
wow...those "professional" journalists sound like average SW fanboys.
ActicEdge
Which is why I just call them enthuisiest press. They aren't journalists, they are just fanboys with a mic.
Same difference, really. Being a journalist doesn't mean you're not an idiot.There are two reasons. Two simple reasons.
1. People hate on the Wii because of 06/07. Simple as that. The launch games were absymal and did a great job at shattering every hope and expectation. The controller was not what it was marketed to be, the third party support was not what it was expected to be, and what games there were tried to use the Wiimote, but mostly failed horribly; the huge majority of games were made worse by their controls, not better; what followed were games that didn't use any motion sensing other than general movement ("waggle").
Opinions were formed then. Strong opinions.
Now, in 2008/2009, everything is delightful and perfect. The game library, for a Nintendo console in it's third year, is very satisfying and diverse. Third party support is better than it ever was on a Nintendo console, both(!) in terms of quantity AND quality. The upcoming games for 09/10 look fantastic. There are many games that managed to utilize the Wiimote's capabilities in great ways, and at the same time devs have realized that if they wouldn't work, they don't implement then. And then there is MotionPlus that, hopefully, will have a similar impact on the console as Dual Analog sticks, the SFX chip or the Expansion Pack.
The people with the opinions, however, wouldn't know that. Because they delight in not being able to make qualified statements about the library: They haven't turned on their console in months, and it collects dust. And they are very proud to tell people that. Quite embarrassing, actually. :D
2. The Wii doesn't offer many games that try to be bad movies with playable action sequences. The Wii is not able to satisfy the gun porn needs of the average HD gamer, hence a few gears up in lack of interest. They wouldn't be able to tell if there are good games on the Wii, because games such as DeBlob or Little King's Story don't even enter their awareness level.
Lothenon
The entire thought process that the wii had every chance to deliver and didn't is a absolute fallacy. The entire media laughed at the wii, it was expected Sony domination and the wii was expected to fail. No one supported it from the start.The idea that the wii would have good third party support is a joke. It was never poised to, nintendo hasn't had that since the SNES days. If that's the true cause gamers know less than I thought.
I wonder if they would call metroid the other M and SMG2 lame as well?
It's like a good game is automatically at fault just because it's on the wii.
Anyway does the wii deserve the hate it gets? Some of the hate is justified...but it's often way to over blown.
well truthfully, one of the reasons Im not a fan of the wii is that I am not good at all with the motion control scheme, its never been fun or enjoyable for me. (with a few exceptions of course though.) I only play my wii for gamecube games and a few VC titles. Although I own most old systems anyways, so even the VC games arent useful to me, only system from the old days i dont own any more is genesis, and I already have Sonics Ultimate Genesis Collection which has all my genesis needs on it...
[QUOTE="ActicEdge"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]
wow...those "professional" journalists sound like average SW fanboys.
Cherokee_Jack
Which is why I just call them enthuisiest press. They aren't journalists, they are just fanboys with a mic.
Same difference, really. Being a journalist doesn't mean you're not an idiot.Correct but gaming press don''t perform any actually journalism. They don't write inciteful editorials, they don't talk about incite into the industry, they don't write serious, fact filled and checked articles they do nothing. There job is to tell us how awesome every game is in a preview and then tell us what they think in a review. A review is not journalist, its just an opinion supported by opinion.
[QUOTE="Lothenon"]
There are two reasons. Two simple reasons.
1. People hate on the Wii because of 06/07. Simple as that. The launch games were absymal and did a great job at shattering every hope and expectation. The controller was not what it was marketed to be, the third party support was not what it was expected to be, and what games there were tried to use the Wiimote, but mostly failed horribly; the huge majority of games were made worse by their controls, not better; what followed were games that didn't use any motion sensing other than general movement ("waggle").
Opinions were formed then. Strong opinions.
Now, in 2008/2009, everything is delightful and perfect. The game library, for a Nintendo console in it's third year, is very satisfying and diverse. Third party support is better than it ever was on a Nintendo console, both(!) in terms of quantity AND quality. The upcoming games for 09/10 look fantastic. There are many games that managed to utilize the Wiimote's capabilities in great ways, and at the same time devs have realized that if they wouldn't work, they don't implement then. And then there is MotionPlus that, hopefully, will have a similar impact on the console as Dual Analog sticks, the SFX chip or the Expansion Pack.
The people with the opinions, however, wouldn't know that. Because they delight in not being able to make qualified statements about the library: They haven't turned on their console in months, and it collects dust. And they are very proud to tell people that. Quite embarrassing, actually. :D
2. The Wii doesn't offer many games that try to be bad movies with playable action sequences. The Wii is not able to satisfy the gun porn needs of the average HD gamer, hence a few gears up in lack of interest. They wouldn't be able to tell if there are good games on the Wii, because games such as DeBlob or Little King's Story don't even enter their awareness level.
ActicEdge
The entire thought process that the wii had every chance to deliver and didn't is a absolute fallacy. The entire media laughed at the wii, it was expected Sony domination and the wii was expected to fail. No one supported it from the start.The idea that the wii would have good third party support is a joke. It was never poised to, nintendo hasn't had that since the SNES days. If that's the true cause gamers know less than I thought.
I remember that in 2006 I was doing bets with my friends. I was saying that the Wii will dominate this generation and the ps3 would be in last place. Guess I was right but I never expected that the Wii would win because the casual gamers. I wish now that the 360 or the ps3 would be in first place and the Wii in last place because Nintendo took the same position as Sony had in sixth and fifth generation.
Talk about out of touch. If those yahoos at "invisible walls" were stock analysts or brokers, they would have been canned during their internships. The Wii has been, and continues to dominate the economic side of things.
Ask me, Im left handed and it is a pain using the Wiimote with the right hand.well truthfully, one of the reasons Im not a fan of the wii is that I am not good at all with the motion control scheme, its never been fun or enjoyable for me. (with a few exceptions of course though.) I only play my wii for gamecube games and a few VC titles. Although I own most old systems anyways, so even the VC games arent useful to me, only system from the old days i dont own any more is genesis, and I already have Sonics Ultimate Genesis Collection which has all my genesis needs on it...
dragonfly110
I wonder if they would call metroid the other M and SMG2 lame as well?
It's like a good game is automatically at fault just because it's on the wii.
Anyway does the wii deserve the hate it gets? Some of the hate is justified...but it's often way to over blown.
Shinobishyguy
They would, the press inherently hates it because its on the wii. This is not even opinion. You can find them saying it all over. The hate the console, not dislike it. Some of the hate is incredibly justified, most however is just blatant fanboyism. I mention in the opening that the Wiimote is an incredibly flawed controller for instance.
[QUOTE="ActicEdge"][QUOTE="Birdy09"] Maybe you are the one missing the point, those multiplats represent the taste of most of the core gamers here, the console not even having them and then valueing things like Wii-Fit and a very miniscule library of Japanese orientated 3rd parties is whats holding them back and why we think very little of the system as a whole, or its complete lack of competent modern online gaming. Or the fact that the wiimote is limited, despite its inputs being both button and motion based. it does more harm than good in most genres, and some of the wiis best games dont even benefit, infact hindered from it (Zelda TP.. waggle sword is fun :lol: not.). Somethings wrong when tyhe only decent online on the Wii is Mario Kart, a fun yet shallow/easy/holding your hand racer.Birdy09
No I don't actually think I missed the point. The point of the Wii was to go back and try to find what made video games enjoyable to the people and what didn't. Nintendo came to the answer that graphics, cinimatics etc weren't it and they seemed to be right. This thread isn't about asking why the wii doesn't appeal to the SW crowd, I already know that answer, it is about trying to find why there is an inherent and intense hatred for it by everyone but the people buying it. You say the wiimote is limited, I said that in my very first post if you read the opening. You are following into the trap, I asked why the hatred is so great, not why the average 19 - 35 year ikd male dislikes.
Well then you probably already know the anwser, youve already said it yourself, its a different audiance, the average consumor, those that dont dabble or become enthusiast into a specific medium. The success of the platform will take attention away from what "core crowd" considers great games, sales will decrease blah blah blah. You already know the anwser. ITs the same in genres then aswell, those of us that despise the success of WoW & Modern Warfare 2 because we/they feel that it holds back what the genre is really capable of in terms of immersion, depth and competition... some of the older, more core values of gaming other than a cheap thrill.This is the correct answer. The core gamer demographic, the hardcore gamers, the gamers who have been playing for 20+ years and watched games continue to evolve over the decades... to these guys, the Wii is taking a step back. The controls are gimmicky. The graphics are no better than last generations. The machine is not capable of handling modern game engines. There may be a handful of games, mostly first party, that are pretty good, but the majority of titles are shovelware. None of this holds the system back, however, since they aren't targetting that core gamer demographic. They are targetting grandmas, soccer moms, people who never really got into games. That's fine. It was a good business move, very successful.
The problem is that the non-gamer demographic is much larger than the gamer demographic. Nintendo's competitors, the ones who targetted the gamers who kept the industry alive the past 20 years, see the success in Nintendo's direction, and start to think "hey... they made something that costs less for them, and is making them all kinds of money... Why are we pumping all this money into making games better and better, when we could just stop trying to improve them, tack on some waggle wands and make more money by selling to casuals?"
Personally, I always supported Nintendo. I've had every Nintendo console... except the Wii. After I supported them for 20 years, as what I would call a hardcore gamer, they decided they could make more money by catering to people who had never played a game before. I wouldn't say I HATE it. I think it's pretty lame of Nintendo to crap on the people that kept them in business for 20 years. I hate the fact that there is a very real possibility of the other guys seeing how well Nintendo's strategy paid off and following their lead.
[QUOTE="dragonfly110"]Ask me, Im left handed and it is a pain using the Wiimote with the right hand.well truthfully, one of the reasons Im not a fan of the wii is that I am not good at all with the motion control scheme, its never been fun or enjoyable for me. (with a few exceptions of course though.) I only play my wii for gamecube games and a few VC titles. Although I own most old systems anyways, so even the VC games arent useful to me, only system from the old days i dont own any more is genesis, and I already have Sonics Ultimate Genesis Collection which has all my genesis needs on it...
Miroku32
Im left handed too, but you know the wii mote works the smae with either hand right? :P
[QUOTE="ActicEdge"][QUOTE="Birdy09"] Maybe you are the one missing the point, those multiplats represent the taste of most of the core gamers here, the console not even having them and then valueing things like Wii-Fit and a very miniscule library of Japanese orientated 3rd parties is whats holding them back and why we think very little of the system as a whole, or its complete lack of competent modern online gaming. Or the fact that the wiimote is limited, despite its inputs being both button and motion based. it does more harm than good in most genres, and some of the wiis best games dont even benefit, infact hindered from it (Zelda TP.. waggle sword is fun :lol: not.). Somethings wrong when tyhe only decent online on the Wii is Mario Kart, a fun yet shallow/easy/holding your hand racer.Birdy09
No I don't actually think I missed the point. The point of the Wii was to go back and try to find what made video games enjoyable to the people and what didn't. Nintendo came to the answer that graphics, cinimatics etc weren't it and they seemed to be right. This thread isn't about asking why the wii doesn't appeal to the SW crowd, I already know that answer, it is about trying to find why there is an inherent and intense hatred for it by everyone but the people buying it. You say the wiimote is limited, I said that in my very first post if you read the opening. You are following into the trap, I asked why the hatred is so great, not why the average 19 - 35 year ikd male dislikes.
Well then you probably already know the anwser, youve already said it yourself, its a different audiance, the average consumor, those that dont dabble or become enthusiast into a specific medium. The success of the platform will take attention away from what "core crowd" considers great games, sales will decrease blah blah blah. You already know the anwser. ITs the same in genres then aswell, those of us that despise the success of WoW & Modern Warfare 2 because we/they feel that it holds back what the genre is really capable of in terms of immersion, depth and competition... some of the older, more core values of gaming other than a cheap thrill. Wow , Birdy09 you nailed it down right there...it's right here: "ITs the same in genres then aswell, those of us that despise the success of WoW & Modern Warfare 2 because we/they feel that it holds back what the genre is really capable of in terms of immersion, depth and competition... some of the older, more core values of gaming other than a cheap thril" Also I get mad every time I see a franchise that I liked on the PS2 going to the wii or ds, because it's cheap to make for a quick buck instead of making a proper new gen game. Suikoden, one of my favorite rpgs, got a ds cut down game on ds instead of a new epic Suikoden 6 on ps3..what is that? Silent hill 2 was my favorite horror game, now its going on the wii with bad graphics and a no gun gameplay...how immersive can it be when it looks like crap on a hdtv. I don't like the fact that some devs will throw crap easy to make ports at the wii instead of making the hd next gen versions.. dumbing them down and taking out the things that made them great to begin withAsk me, Im left handed and it is a pain using the Wiimote with the right hand.[QUOTE="Miroku32"][QUOTE="dragonfly110"]
well truthfully, one of the reasons Im not a fan of the wii is that I am not good at all with the motion control scheme, its never been fun or enjoyable for me. (with a few exceptions of course though.) I only play my wii for gamecube games and a few VC titles. Although I own most old systems anyways, so even the VC games arent useful to me, only system from the old days i dont own any more is genesis, and I already have Sonics Ultimate Genesis Collection which has all my genesis needs on it...
dragonfly110
Im left handed too, but you know the wii mote works the smae with either hand right? :P
Really? Because Im having alot of troubles in Metroid Prime 3. I cant point very well with my right hand.[QUOTE="dragonfly110"][QUOTE="Miroku32"] Ask me, Im left handed and it is a pain using the Wiimote with the right hand. Miroku32
Im left handed too, but you know the wii mote works the smae with either hand right? :P
Really? Because Im having alot of troubles in Metroid Prime 3. I cant point very well with my right hand.well Im almost positive the wiimote is interchangable, try switching to your left hand, as long as your in front of the TV and not way off to the left/ right it should work fine.
I don't hate it at all. I think it has the potential to make dozens of new and unique AAAE experiences. Developers just aren't doing enough of that IMO. ------------- It may partly be Nintendo's fault for the way they advertise the Wii + Devs who are making more "casual" experiences than "hardcore" + Wii owners who buy "causal" games more than "hardcore" games = Many Wii games that aren't up to snuff for my standards (compared to PS3 and 360). This has tarnished the Wii image in the "hardcore" crowd as well.TREAL_Since
I agree in some sense but the hate is really what I'm getting at, not why the console disappoints. (I love the wii but its disappointing to the extreme in some cases)
How the console is advertised shouldn't affect the core gamer though because games have never been top notch and cool to the general public. Maybe to the 18 - 34 male demographic but not to the average person. The problem is the publishers and esoecially developers hate the wii so it becomes a situation where they hate it and won't work with it, yet they are furling the very hate they hold. They have the power to change it but they refuse so who the hell are they to be talking? Wii games not being up to snuff is not nintendo's problem. O don't see the average person ripping up 3rd parties for this because they don't want to rip up 3rd parties, they want to rip up nintendo. What nintendo has produced, can on a quality level, match anything out this gen. They aren't to blame for that issue.
Well then you probably already know the anwser, youve already said it yourself, its a different audiance, the average consumor, those that dont dabble or become enthusiast into a specific medium. The success of the platform will take attention away from what "core crowd" considers great games, sales will decrease blah blah blah. You already know the anwser. ITs the same in genres then aswell, those of us that despise the success of WoW & Modern Warfare 2 because we/they feel that it holds back what the genre is really capable of in terms of immersion, depth and competition... some of the older, more core values of gaming other than a cheap thrill.[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]
No I don't actually think I missed the point. The point of the Wii was to go back and try to find what made video games enjoyable to the people and what didn't. Nintendo came to the answer that graphics, cinimatics etc weren't it and they seemed to be right. This thread isn't about asking why the wii doesn't appeal to the SW crowd, I already know that answer, it is about trying to find why there is an inherent and intense hatred for it by everyone but the people buying it. You say the wiimote is limited, I said that in my very first post if you read the opening. You are following into the trap, I asked why the hatred is so great, not why the average 19 - 35 year ikd male dislikes.
ianuilliam
This is the correct answer. The core gamer demographic, the hardcore gamers, the gamers who have been playing for 20+ years and watched games continue to evolve over the decades... to these guys, the Wii is taking a step back. The controls are gimmicky. The graphics are no better than last generations. The machine is not capable of handling modern game engines. There may be a handful of games, mostly first party, that are pretty good, but the majority of titles are shovelware. None of this holds the system back, however, since they aren't targetting that core gamer demographic. They are targetting grandmas, soccer moms, people who never really got into games. That's fine. It was a good business move, very successful.
The problem is that the non-gamer demographic is much larger than the gamer demographic. Nintendo's competitors, the ones who targetted the gamers who kept the industry alive the past 20 years, see the success in Nintendo's direction, and start to think "hey... they made something that costs less for them, and is making them all kinds of money... Why are we pumping all this money into making games better and better, when we could just stop trying to improve them, tack on some waggle wands and make more money by selling to casuals?"
Personally, I always supported Nintendo. I've had every Nintendo console... except the Wii. After I supported them for 20 years, as what I would call a hardcore gamer, they decided they could make more money by catering to people who had never played a game before. I wouldn't say I HATE it. I think it's pretty lame of Nintendo to crap on the people that kept them in business for 20 years. I hate the fact that there is a very real possibility of the other guys seeing how well Nintendo's strategy paid off and following their lead.
That was a great analysis. I pretty much feel the same way. But I like the Wii very much and I own one. There are only a handful of games that are "must owns" for me. It has definitely gotten better since launch back in 2006, but devs haven't been focusing enough on games that I'd like to play :(. Thinking about it, Nintendo has hardly catered to my gaming desires this gen. Their two new IPs this gen were Wii Sports and Wii Fit. At least they are still carrying on Mario and Zelda and Metroid though :). This gen comes as a complete shock to me since the GCube was my favorite system last gen...The fact that I wasted $250 on it.
After about 6 months it just sat there collecting dust. I sold it shortly thereafter.
Well I can understand where some of the hate comes from as the wii doesn't have strengh in some areas that make games enjoyable to people: solid controls, good online interface, and competitive games as a general are all lacking on the system. That being said I think these weaknesses get blown way out of porportion by the general gaming population. I think the biggest thing is gamers just don't like change in their hobby and the wii is undeniably bringing just that to both the games and the market.
Same difference, really. Being a journalist doesn't mean you're not an idiot.[QUOTE="Cherokee_Jack"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]
Which is why I just call them enthuisiest press. They aren't journalists, they are just fanboys with a mic.
ActicEdge
Correct but gaming press don''t perform any actually journalism. They don't write inciteful editorials, they don't talk about incite into the industry, they don't write serious, fact filled and checked articles they do nothing. There job is to tell us how awesome every game is in a preview and then tell us what they think in a review. A review is not journalist, its just an opinion supported by opinion.
True, but the game press doesn't consist entirely of opinionated dip****s like the Invisible Walls guys. It's not fair to use that label as a pejorative.
(it's insight, BTW)
I prefer the Wii over the 360. I played a few games on the 360 and it is nothing special. FEAR 2 was incredibly boring and so was Terok. The Wii has more classic games. Platformers are an example. They basically built up gaming to what it is today. I have seen one platformer that is not on the Wii. Splosion Man.
Yes shooters are fun but not when they are all exactly the same,mindless,boring,crap like the Call of Duty series. Activision is milking that series,that is all they ever do,milk stuff.
I think the Wii is such an amazing console, but it isn't for everyone.
I can pretty much guarantee you, that if the Wii's graphics were on par with the 360/PS3, almost nobody would complain.
The only thing they would have left is "waggle", which I can't understand since I find the controls responsive enough.
1) graphics are terrible
2) 90% of games are shovelware designed for people under the game of 8
3) It gets shoddy ports, or none at all
Its a console for kids. Who dont care about graphics or gameplay as long as they get to play as their favourite cartoon character.
Ah, don't tease him.1) graphics are terrible
2) 90% of games are shovelware designed for people under the game of 8
3) It gets shoddy ports, or none at all
Its a console for kids. Who dont care about graphics or gameplay as long as they get to play as their favourite cartoon character.
NinjaMunkey01
[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]I don't hate it at all. I think it has the potential to make dozens of new and unique AAAE experiences. Developers just aren't doing enough of that IMO. ------------- It may partly be Nintendo's fault for the way they advertise the Wii + Devs who are making more "casual" experiences than "hardcore" + Wii owners who buy "causal" games more than "hardcore" games = Many Wii games that aren't up to snuff for my standards (compared to PS3 and 360). This has tarnished the Wii image in the "hardcore" crowd as well.ActicEdge
I agree in some sense but the hate is really what I'm getting at, not why the console disappoints. (I love the wii but its disappointing to the extreme in some cases)
How the console is advertised shouldn't affect the core gamer though because games have never been top notch and cool to the general public. Maybe to the 18 - 34 male demographic but not to the average person. The problem is the publishers and esoecially developers hate the wii so it becomes a situation where they hate it and won't work with it, yet they are furling the very hate they hold. They have the power to change it but they refuse so who the hell are they to be talking? Wii games not being up to snuff is not nintendo's problem. O don't see the average person ripping up 3rd parties for this because they don't want to rip up 3rd parties, they want to rip up nintendo. What nintendo has produced, can on a quality level, match anything out this gen. They aren't to blame for that issue.
I understand you. But the way the Wii is advertised does affect the ore gamer.
---
Here are the steps:
1.) Nintendo advertises the Wii as a family friendly and casual experience (mostly) to attract "new gamers".
2.) Therefore more of the "new gamers" buy the Wii, and in turn, want those "casual experiences" that cater to their "simple gaming" needs.
3.) Those experiences sell more than the games I would like to see more of (No More Heroes, Madworld, Zack and Wiki etc). Because of this, devs make more and more of these experiences that I really don't care for.
----
Now I'm not saying I hate the Wii in anyway. There's just a combination of things that have gotten the Wii's image to this point. Like a domino effect.
THIS THIS THIS. You wonder why people HATE the Wii. I've wondering the whole time why retards ACCEPT the Wii. Its a freakin insult to gamers and its cashing in on "non-gamers". Why should devs have to work hard on games anymore? Just make a bowling game and invite your grandma over. THATS WHY I hate the Wii....
CoreoVII
You realize if video game companies keep appealing to the same market over and over again without expanding their audience, the industry will either become completely stagnant or die altogether. Nintendo was the only company really pushing to expand gaming and make it more mainstream; Sony and MS are merely trying to catch up right now.
This is the correct answer. The core gamer demographic, the hardcore gamers, the gamers who have been playing for 20+ years and watched games continue to evolve over the decades... to these guys, the Wii is taking a step back. The controls are gimmicky. The graphics are no better than last generations. The machine is not capable of handling modern game engines. There may be a handful of games, mostly first party, that are pretty good, but the majority of titles are shovelware. None of this holds the system back, however, since they aren't targetting that core gamer demographic. They are targetting grandmas, soccer moms, people who never really got into games. That's fine. It was a good business move, very successful.
The problem is that the non-gamer demographic is much larger than the gamer demographic. Nintendo's competitors, the ones who targetted the gamers who kept the industry alive the past 20 years, see the success in Nintendo's direction, and start to think "hey... they made something that costs less for them, and is making them all kinds of money... Why are we pumping all this money into making games better and better, when we could just stop trying to improve them, tack on some waggle wands and make more money by selling to casuals?"
Personally, I always supported Nintendo. I've had every Nintendo console... except the Wii. After I supported them for 20 years, as what I would call a hardcore gamer, they decided they could make more money by catering to people who had never played a game before. I wouldn't say I HATE it. I think it's pretty lame of Nintendo to crap on the people that kept them in business for 20 years. I hate the fact that there is a very real possibility of the other guys seeing how well Nintendo's strategy paid off and following their lead.
ianuilliam
I've been playing games for a while now, not 20 years - but around 15ish - I'm going to be honest and say towards the end of last generation I was getting bored, tired of the same old games and I wanted something new. Thats where the Wii and the DS came in, and I got something different. To me without the Wii I would've probably waited even longer to get a console than I did when it did release.
Companies will not just decide to ditch the core market and start making games that cost less. Developers can make profits - in both markets. Plus, not everyone in the industry is thinking solely about money - many in the industry do care about the industry itself.
And Nintendo has never made 'core' games. Hell, most of the mainstream games you and I play use the exact same formula Nintendo uses with games like Mario and Zelda - They're all pretty accessible. A lot of games are doing it this generation - From games like Gears of War 2 to something like Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - they're not terribly difficult games to play or get into and all can be played in short spurts - much like what Nintendo is doing with most of their titles this generation - the whole 'pick up and play' thing.
You can fear that Sony and Microsoft are going to 'follow' in the footsteps of Nintendo, but it won't entirely be a bad thing. In the end Nintendo is still catoring to its core userbase, the Nintendo fans. The fans of Zelda, have their games. The Mario fans, have their games. Hell - Metroid fans are finally getting a 2D/3D new Metroid titling - moving the series in a new direction.
Nintendo's core audience is getting a lot of titles - whether or not you enjoy them is a different story. If the other companies decide to go the route of Nintendo, it'll be the same situation - The core fans will be pleased, they will have their titles - The company will ALSO be making games to appeal to new audiences, which to me isn't a bad thing if you want the industry to grow and gain more opportunities.
It's not a console for kids at all. It's a console for EVERYONE. That's Nintendo's vision. As a result, this means you're not going to get many people who care about playing games like Zack and Wiki or Madworld. And that means there will be games that core gamers won't feel satisfied with because less and less core experiences will be available. --- Now there are many good and great games on the Wii... I just don't really want to play most of them...1) graphics are terrible
2) 90% of games are shovelware designed for people under the game of 8
3) It gets shoddy ports, or none at all
Its a console for kids. Who dont care about graphics or gameplay as long as they get to play as their favourite cartoon character.
NinjaMunkey01
[QUOTE="CoreoVII"]
THIS THIS THIS. You wonder why people HATE the Wii. I've wondering the whole time why retards ACCEPT the Wii. Its a freakin insult to gamers and its cashing in on "non-gamers". Why should devs have to work hard on games anymore? Just make a bowling game and invite your grandma over. THATS WHY I hate the Wii....
shoryuken_
You realize if video game companies keep appealing to the same market over and over again without expanding their audience, the industry will either become completely stagnant or die altogether. Nintendo was the only company really pushing to expand gaming and make it more mainstream; Sony and MS are merely trying to catch up right now.
This. I agree with you. Yet, Nin didn't survive for 20+ years on a bowling franchise. I used to be a huge fan of them. Look at the hardships of the PS3/360. They have appealed to the same audience the whole time. Now we get two new wii motes to play with. I dont think Wii just ruined gaming, no, it infact started a casual movement within the industry. I can't even count on my fingers how many devs are still trying to make a quality game knowing that it wont sell to a wii sports? That is just sad...
Well then you probably already know the anwser, youve already said it yourself, its a different audiance, the average consumor, those that dont dabble or become enthusiast into a specific medium. The success of the platform will take attention away from what "core crowd" considers great games, sales will decrease blah blah blah. You already know the anwser. ITs the same in genres then aswell, those of us that despise the success of WoW & Modern Warfare 2 because we/they feel that it holds back what the genre is really capable of in terms of immersion, depth and competition... some of the older, more core values of gaming other than a cheap thrill.[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]
No I don't actually think I missed the point. The point of the Wii was to go back and try to find what made video games enjoyable to the people and what didn't. Nintendo came to the answer that graphics, cinimatics etc weren't it and they seemed to be right. This thread isn't about asking why the wii doesn't appeal to the SW crowd, I already know that answer, it is about trying to find why there is an inherent and intense hatred for it by everyone but the people buying it. You say the wiimote is limited, I said that in my very first post if you read the opening. You are following into the trap, I asked why the hatred is so great, not why the average 19 - 35 year ikd male dislikes.
ianuilliam
This is the correct answer. The core gamer demographic, the hardcore gamers, the gamers who have been playing for 20+ years and watched games continue to evolve over the decades... to these guys, the Wii is taking a step back. The controls are gimmicky. The graphics are no better than last generations. The machine is not capable of handling modern game engines. There may be a handful of games, mostly first party, that are pretty good, but the majority of titles are shovelware. None of this holds the system back, however, since they aren't targetting that core gamer demographic. They are targetting grandmas, soccer moms, people who never really got into games. That's fine. It was a good business move, very successful.
The problem is that the non-gamer demographic is much larger than the gamer demographic. Nintendo's competitors, the ones who targetted the gamers who kept the industry alive the past 20 years, see the success in Nintendo's direction, and start to think "hey... they made something that costs less for them, and is making them all kinds of money... Why are we pumping all this money into making games better and better, when we could just stop trying to improve them, tack on some waggle wands and make more money by selling to casuals?"
Personally, I always supported Nintendo. I've had every Nintendo console... except the Wii. After I supported them for 20 years, as what I would call a hardcore gamer, they decided they could make more money by catering to people who had never played a game before. I wouldn't say I HATE it. I think it's pretty lame of Nintendo to crap on the people that kept them in business for 20 years. I hate the fact that there is a very real possibility of the other guys seeing how well Nintendo's strategy paid off and following their lead.
This is whereIstart to sense that gamers are not gamers for fun and enjoyment and they game for graphics (regardless of whether you agree with me or not, I truly believe most of the industry are graphics whores. This isn't to be cliche, its to say this is what they love to do but not what is important to everyone) and just seeing gaming evolve and be respected. The problem is, games can't evolve until you let everyone in. I won't pretend I'm a 20+ year gamer cause I'm not, I will say however that I think I Know enough about the industry and what I play to see that thehardcore gamers you speak of are shallow and uninterested in seeing something new or seeing change. To see the wii as a step back is fair in a lot of regards. To not see it as any sort of step forward is where I begin to wonder whether you are hardcore or whether you just like games. Shovelware is not an issue, you don't buy it regardless of whther or not it exists. If you will not buy it why do you care. If the whole casual and core devide is true then wondering about what others like completely destroys the point of seperating us. You know what the problem is, the core demographics isn't hardcore, they are the demographic that wants to see games become like movies. There is nothing wrong with that but often times I here how Wii games can't compete and wonder, have you ever followed any wii news? Have yo opened up and looked outside of your dark room?
This threaqd is about why the hate is so deep and if what you say is true than the reason is, core gamers are pathetic children who have the mantra that they shouldn't have to share or respect others. Is this it? You think that all the 3rd parties who haven't supported the wii care about its success? Do you honestly think that? This isn't an argument, it would be if the wii had support but it doesn't, it inherently has done nothing wrong but capture more people. Imatation of the wii won't happen next gen entriely because these publishers and devs don't want to accept the wii. This is the point. What you are propsoing will never happen and if it does, you can't blaqme nintendo for this because the whole industry never gave them a chance. Understand what I'm getting at.
The last part is what makes me sad. Catering to people who never gamed is not bad. Nintendo gave up tech, they didn't give up making top quality games. So are you more interested in tech or playing games. You hate people for sharing your hoby. You are the exact type of hate I am talking about.
1) graphics are terrible
2) 90% of games are shovelware designed for people under the game of 8
3) It gets shoddy ports, or none at all
Its a console for kids. Who dont care about graphics or gameplay as long as they get to play as their favourite cartoon character.
It's not a console for kids at all. It's a console for EVERYONE. That's Nintendo's vision. As a result, this means you're not going to get many people who care about playing games like Zack and Wiki or Madworld. And that means there will be games that core gamers won't feel satisfied with because less and less core experiences will be available. --- Now there are many good and great games on the Wii... I just don't really want to play most of them... I have a wii, its ok but I dont like it much. Madworld is not great... Infact all I play is wii sports and wii play, occasionally. But im hoping the COD4 port will change that.the wii is a kiddie console perception the media and the general core gamer tends to have confuses the hell out of me too.
maybe it's partly due to nintendos marketing why are they still advertising wii fit and showing footage of wii sports, with old people and familys playing hula hooping on tv? where is the commercials with mario galaxy and a teen/adult having fun. they market it purely as a party/family console. they need to show the other target audiences, this is not just a party console how about showing that.
the only problem with this view is the ds, in the uk anyway the adverts for the ds are just as poor. why is patrick stewart, some dodgy 90's pop star and some old woman playing brain training, like 2 years after brain training launched? yet the ds is known among many as the greatest handheld of all time. i don't see many mario games or i doubt golden sun will feature much when that releases. yet it get's not 1/1000 of the bad press the wii gets.
i may be wrong but i remember in the first 2 years of the ds's life it was looked down upon, so maybe in the coming years the wii's library will speak for itself.
as you mentioned the controls aren't always great, but the motion is a hell of alot better than ps3 motion controls (six axis), yet the ps3 controller never gets pulled up, and it's an 11 or so year old controller design. the wiimote mainly had problems at launch with waggle controls, ports and some of the early games sucked (okami and twilight princess). slightly hit and miss controls certainly wouldn't warrant hate, and the psp has similar problems with controls, but that isn't hated(only ds fans tend to attack it).
to me the wii will be better than the gamecube in the long run for gamers. i think the potential has not yet been fully realised and some of the franchises can be truly great.
What does that have to do with games , or gaming tastes? Absolutely nothing. Parents buy the wii because there are millions of little kids and they know its a safe family friendly console for the little ones. That is why the sales of the console and wii-sports is so high, but 3rd party games like madworld and conduit are low.. The invisible walls podcast was right, SEGA really did there best for the wii and nobody bought the games. It tells me that the wii is owned and played by mostly non-gamers who buy it like they would buy a board game. To play it at parties and then put in the closet. This is about games not economics. Why do people always bring this up, do they own stock in the company? Sales mean nothing when 80% is from kid the base console and one game.Talk about out of touch. If those yahoos at "invisible walls" were stock analysts or brokers, they would have been canned during their internships. The Wii has been, and continues to dominate the economic side of things.
dkrustyklown
I hate the console. I can honestly say I hate it. I own the thing and I totally regret that I ever bought it. Wii Sports was fun for awhile, but then I realized that the Wii offered nothing new. It has turned into the dumping ground of crapware. It doesn't offer any form of actual, easy to use online gameplay. SMG was fun for a few levels but then the realization set in that it was simply just SM64 with the ability to jump between planets. LoZ: TP was OOT remade, with less innovation. The best game on it is a port of a PS2 game, Okami. Far better than LoZ:TP in every way.
And the worst part is, I can't even sell it because my wife says "You want to sell the only game I like: Wii Sports." The $250 I spent on the Wii + games and controllers could have easily went to a PS3 and I'd be much happier at this point.
On the complete opposite end of the scale, while I hate the NDSi (it offered truely nothing game changing), I LOVE my NDS Lite.
This. I agree with you. Yet, Nin didn't survive for 20+ years on a bowling franchise. I used to be a huge fan of them. Look at the hardships of the PS3/360. They have appealed to the same audience the whole time. Now we get two new wii motes to play with. I dont think Wii just ruined gaming, no, it infact started a casual movement within the industry. I can't even count on my fingers how many devs are still trying to make a quality game knowing that it wont sell to a wii sports? That is just sad...
CoreoVII
Look at Nintendo's 2010 lineup and the new Metroid Prime Trilogy, they are doing plenty for the so called "hardcore." Nintendo took a huge risk for the Wii, and it payed off big time. MS/Sony, on the other hand, went with the same old and are getting their asses kicked because of it. It's business, I don't really feel sorry for them lol.
[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]
[QUOTE="TREAL_Since"]I don't hate it at all. I think it has the potential to make dozens of new and unique AAAE experiences. Developers just aren't doing enough of that IMO. ------------- It may partly be Nintendo's fault for the way they advertise the Wii + Devs who are making more "casual" experiences than "hardcore" + Wii owners who buy "causal" games more than "hardcore" games = Many Wii games that aren't up to snuff for my standards (compared to PS3 and 360). This has tarnished the Wii image in the "hardcore" crowd as well.TREAL_Since
I agree in some sense but the hate is really what I'm getting at, not why the console disappoints. (I love the wii but its disappointing to the extreme in some cases)
How the console is advertised shouldn't affect the core gamer though because games have never been top notch and cool to the general public. Maybe to the 18 - 34 male demographic but not to the average person. The problem is the publishers and esoecially developers hate the wii so it becomes a situation where they hate it and won't work with it, yet they are furling the very hate they hold. They have the power to change it but they refuse so who the hell are they to be talking? Wii games not being up to snuff is not nintendo's problem. O don't see the average person ripping up 3rd parties for this because they don't want to rip up 3rd parties, they want to rip up nintendo. What nintendo has produced, can on a quality level, match anything out this gen. They aren't to blame for that issue.
I understand you. But the way the Wii is advertised does affect the ore gamer.
---
Here are the steps:
1.) Nintendo advertises the Wii as a family friendly and casual experience (mostly) to attract "new gamers".
2.) Therefore more of the "new gamers" buy the Wii, and in turn, want those "casual experiences" that cater to their "simple gaming" needs.
3.) Those experiences sell more than the games I would like to see more of (No More Heroes, Madworld, Zack and Wiki etc). Because of this, devs make more and more of these experiences that I really don't care for.
----
Now I'm not saying I hate the Wii in anyway. There's just a combination of things that have gotten the Wii's image to this point. Like a domino effect.
Here's the thing, who inherently has prevented the wii from having core game experiences? Nintendo also released MP3 didn't they? It sold 1.5 million didn't it? 3rd parties followed suit early in the systems life and provided AAA experiences in the same vein didn;t they? Oh wait they didn't. If they had backed the wii from the start (I'm not even talking full support or PS3/360 level but rather solid support) this wouldn't be the situation. Answer me this, in the 3 years the wii has been on the market has it seen one major third party AAA games besides MH3? I get the image, I don't the hate for the system and nintendo period.
the wii is a kiddie console perception the media and the general core gamer tends to have confuses the hell out of me too. maybe it's partly due to nintendos marketing why are they still advertising wii fit and showing footage of wii sports, with old people and familys playing hula hooping on tv? where is the commercials with mario galaxy and a teen/adult having fun. they market it purely as a party/family console. they need to show the other target audiences, this is not just a party console how about showing that. the only problem with this view is the ds, in the uk anyway the adverts for the ds are just as poor. why is patrick stewart, some dodgy 90's pop star and some old woman playing brain training, like 2 years after brain training launched? yet the ds is known among many as the greatest handheld of all time. i don't see many mario games or i doubt golden sun will feature much when that releases. yet it get's not 1/1000 of the bad press the wii gets. i may be wrong but i remember in the first 2 years of the ds's life it was looked down upon, so maybe in the coming years the wii's library will speak for itself. as you mentioned the controls aren't always great, but the motion is a hell of alot better than ps3 motion controls (six axis), yet the ps3 controller never gets pulled up, and it's an 11 or so year old controller design. the wiimote mainly had problems at launch with waggle controls, ports and some of the early games sucked (okami and twilight princess). slightly hit and miss controls certainly wouldn't warrant hate, and the psp has similar problems with controls, but that isn't hated(only ds fans tend to attack it). to me the wii will be better than the gamecube in the long run for gamers. i think the potential has not yet been fully realised and some of the franchises can be truly great.Mckenna1845
Its never gets pulled up because for the last 11 years its hold true. I could never play MGS, JAK, Prince of Persia, Kingdom hearts, Arcana Hearts, Onimusha, Devil May Cry, Fall out, BlazBlue, Uncharted, Halo, Gears, etc...etc...on a Wii mote. Also, I do agree in the fact that Nin's Marketers are too scared to even move from a grandma playing Wii Sports on TV. Its just money. The passion for a good game is gone. I have moved to a high end PC because of it.
Props for making a thread like this Arctic and wow, i cant believe gametrailers said that, very sad.
I made a thread similar in spirit to this a few months ago and calling out people who keep buying wiis then selling them a few months later. I was debating with this one guy who said 'I have a right to complain etc because i bought mine at launch so i was under the assumption Nintendo would deliver but they changed' I just thought wait a minute E3 2006 (nintendos grand unvieling) they showed mariometroid zelda and a host of other smaller titles. E3 2009 Nintendo showed mario metroid and zelda and a host of other smaller titles? what exactly has changed? He then went on to a typical fanboy bash.
Like you said, Nintendo really has not changed, if anything, they've expanded. Just looking at their game releases, the core titles (hate using these terms) still outway the casual titles (which are still great). When explaining that people then like to go on complaining how theres no new 1st party ips, thats a far area to argue but me personally, i dont think we need Nintendo to do that anymore, not with 3rd parties stepping up (NMH, LKS, Zack and Wiki etc). It would be nice, buts its not like were missing out now.
phew....that was a pretty long post. I usually dont have a problem with people who dont buy a wii or dont care about it but theres just something about people who buy a Wii and then sell it a few months later with some lame excuse. The wii is what it is, has been since day 1.
Personally, i dont even have a wii so this is coming from a 360/ps3 owner. My reason for not having one is just due to game overload. Have around 10 games to get through and getting a Wii isnt going to help that.
I like the Wii. It's a different console with different games that appeals to a different audience. There is nothing wrong with that.
It's really fun in parties or with your family, not so much by yourself (there are only a handful of single player games that appeal to me), but that's fine. I have the ps3 or my pc for that.
They just really need to cut their prices.
[QUOTE="ianuilliam"]
[QUOTE="Birdy09"] Well then you probably already know the anwser, youve already said it yourself, its a different audiance, the average consumor, those that dont dabble or become enthusiast into a specific medium. The success of the platform will take attention away from what "core crowd" considers great games, sales will decrease blah blah blah. You already know the anwser. ITs the same in genres then aswell, those of us that despise the success of WoW & Modern Warfare 2 because we/they feel that it holds back what the genre is really capable of in terms of immersion, depth and competition... some of the older, more core values of gaming other than a cheap thrill.ActicEdge
This is the correct answer. The core gamer demographic, the hardcore gamers, the gamers who have been playing for 20+ years and watched games continue to evolve over the decades... to these guys, the Wii is taking a step back. The controls are gimmicky. The graphics are no better than last generations. The machine is not capable of handling modern game engines. There may be a handful of games, mostly first party, that are pretty good, but the majority of titles are shovelware. None of this holds the system back, however, since they aren't targetting that core gamer demographic. They are targetting grandmas, soccer moms, people who never really got into games. That's fine. It was a good business move, very successful.
The problem is that the non-gamer demographic is much larger than the gamer demographic. Nintendo's competitors, the ones who targetted the gamers who kept the industry alive the past 20 years, see the success in Nintendo's direction, and start to think "hey... they made something that costs less for them, and is making them all kinds of money... Why are we pumping all this money into making games better and better, when we could just stop trying to improve them, tack on some waggle wands and make more money by selling to casuals?"
Personally, I always supported Nintendo. I've had every Nintendo console... except the Wii. After I supported them for 20 years, as what I would call a hardcore gamer, they decided they could make more money by catering to people who had never played a game before. I wouldn't say I HATE it. I think it's pretty lame of Nintendo to crap on the people that kept them in business for 20 years. I hate the fact that there is a very real possibility of the other guys seeing how well Nintendo's strategy paid off and following their lead.
This is whereIstart to sense that gamers are not gamers for fun and enjoyment and they game for graphics (regardless of whether you agree with me or not, I truly believe most of the industry are graphics whores. This isn't to be cliche, its to say this is what they love to do but not what is important to everyone) and just seeing gaming evolve and be respected. The problem is, games can't evolve until you let everyone in. I won't pretend I'm a 20+ year gamer cause I'm not, I will say however that I think I Know enough about the industry and what I play to see that thehardcore gamers you speak of are shallow and uninterested in seeing something new or seeing change. To see the wii as a step back is fair in a lot of regards. To not see it as any sort of step forward is where I begin to wonder whether you are hardcore or whether you just like games. Shovelware is not an issue, you don't buy it regardless of whther or not it exists. If you will not buy it why do you care. If the whole casual and core devide is true then wondering about what others like completely destroys the point of seperating us. You know what the problem is, the core demographics isn't hardcore, they are the demographic that wants to see games become like movies. There is nothing wrong with that but often times I here how Wii games can't compete and wonder, have you ever followed any wii news? Have yo opened up and looked outside of your dark room?
This threaqd is about why the hate is so deep and if what you say is true than the reason is, core gamers are pathetic children who have the mantra that they shouldn't have to share or respect others. Is this it? You think that all the 3rd parties who haven't supported the wii care about its success? Do you honestly think that? This isn't an argument, it would be if the wii had support but it doesn't, it inherently has done nothing wrong but capture more people. Imatation of the wii won't happen next gen entriely because these publishers and devs don't want to accept the wii. This is the point. What you are propsoing will never happen and if it does, you can't blaqme nintendo for this because the whole industry never gave them a chance. Understand what I'm getting at.
The last part is what makes me sad. Catering to people who never gamed is not bad. Nintendo gave up tech, they didn't give up making top quality games. So are you more interested in tech or playing games. You hate people for sharing your hoby. You are the exact type of hate I am talking about.
Both of you make sense to me. - The deep seeded Wii hate within the "core" gamer community is way too extreme *shakes head*. It's perfectly fine for new experiences to co-exist with the old. Without it the industry won't grow it's audience. - But at the same time there's the other side who say: Unique and fresh experiences can be had with an increase in technology. This is the crowd that wants progression tech and gameplay wise. They could give a damn about "new gamers" entering the market. Especially if it hinders or holds back a "core" experience they could have.[QUOTE="CoreoVII"]
This. I agree with you. Yet, Nin didn't survive for 20+ years on a bowling franchise. I used to be a huge fan of them. Look at the hardships of the PS3/360. They have appealed to the same audience the whole time. Now we get two new wii motes to play with. I dont think Wii just ruined gaming, no, it infact started a casual movement within the industry. I can't even count on my fingers how many devs are still trying to make a quality game knowing that it wont sell to a wii sports? That is just sad...
shoryuken_
Look at Nintendo's 2010 lineup and the new Metroid Prime Trilogy, they are doing plenty for the so called "hardcore." Nintendo took a huge risk for the Wii, and it payed off big time. MS/Sony, on the other hand, went with the same old and are getting their asses kicked because of it. It's business, I don't really feel sorry for them lol.
Metroid Prime 3 Trilogy? 3 last gen games with tacked on waggle is hardcore? Sheesh. Ninty's '10 line is pretty good for Wii Standards, but come on. The New Mario game is pretty much the DS game same engine, with multiplayer and new levels. Is that honestly all they got? I want to see IP's like Madworld, but why waste my time on the Wii when I can play something just as brutal and fun on the 360/PS3. I've grown tired of seeing the same rehash and spin-off off thesame IP. It's really a shame, their work even on the GCN was better than this
While I do not think that Nintendo has totally forgotten their core crowd, I think that it is beyond obvious that they are far less of a priority then they used to be. Anyone can see plain as day that the Wii is so successful because of the casual market, so naturally that is where the brunt of Nintendo's marketing is going to be. Although, I do happen to think they are doing much better in trying to appease the so called 'core market' these days as oppsed to earlier in the Wii's life cycle and for that I give them props.
Speaking for myself here, there still is just not enough incentive for me to run out and pick one up when I put the games up against what all I am going to be playing on my PS3/360. I want one and see a few games coming down the pipe that appeal to me, but I just cannot justify it right now. The price of the Wii makes absolutely no sense to me on the current market either. As long as it is still selling like hotcakes, though, there is simply no reason for Nintendo to drop the price. Oh well, I guess.
In essence, I really think that success simply breeds contempt. The more successful the Wii is and the more games like Wii Fit and Cooking Mama are released, the more hate the Wii is guaranteed to generate. That's just the way the wind blows. However, I must say that what criticisms the Wii has received pale in comparison to it's success. Love it or hate it, no one can deny that it has been a behemoth.
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