System Wars Lounge V.66: Happy Manly New Year Edition

I can see why. There's always something holding them back. Now, I personally have enjoyed every single 3D Zelda game to date (even though I don't care much for OOT on account of it having aged terribly), but I can see why someone would feel different about it.

This year's Zelda game looks so incredible.

I think I'm ready for Nintendo to have the franchise fucking stop sucking. C'mon Nintendo, just don't screw this one up.

I would argue given how I'm closer to Zelda is good vs Zelda is great, that's not necessarily a bad quote. There are absolutely a lot of things about Twilight Princess that don't get enough love the big ones being how fucking good those dungeons are and how well thought out Midna was as a character, even if they botch the whole Zant thing.

We weren't, you nerd. But **** it I'll bite.

God Tier
1: A Link to the Past

Top Tier
2: Link's Awakening
3: Majora's Mask (might need to replay this)
4: A Link Between Worlds
5: The Legend of Zelda

Mid Tier
6: Twilight Princess
7: Ocarina of Time
8: The Wind Waker

Low Tier
9: Oracle of Seasons/Ages
10: The Minish Cap

Hit the Bench Please
11: Spirit Tracks
12: Phantom Hour Glass
13: Skyward Sword

Well, since we're ranking it, here's mine.

1. A Link Between Worlds

2. The Wind Waker

3. A Link to the Past

4. Skyward Sword

5. Majora's Mask

6. Twilight Princess

7. Phantom Hourglass

8. Minish Cap

9. Link's Awakening

10. Ocarina of Time

11. Oracle of Ages/Seasons

12. pile of flaming dog shit

13. Spirit Tracks

Gonna get lots of flak for #4 and #10 lol

What mid dungeon snoozefests?

Because honestly from Arbiter Ground Forward, I really like the dungeons in Twilight Princess. The dungeons before that are good, well designed, they are just too "oh look it's forest, fire, and water dungeon, again, hooray". The Wolf shit in the opening stretch of that game is trash.

By mid-dungeon I meant from one dungeon to the next. The interlude parts between the dungeons. The dungeons themselves were really good.

Skyward sword has too much padding, and errand boy work to be good. And the item pickup animations resetting and Fi are as annoying as bullet ants in my shoes.

It does have some good design, but it's honestly not worth a 2nd trek through the the mud to get to those moments again. Oh and the swimming and wii sports bowling bombs were just bad. For most of the motion controls, I don't think the motion added anything but unnecessary effort. Archery is the one that stands out, but the gyro can get out of wack at times and that was annoying. I remember the whip being all right.

Also, the art style is good, but from a technical perspective in some ways it looks like it belongs on the N64. It's a bad game with some bright spots.

@Chozofication: Valid criticisms. But here's why I like it- what forms the core of a good Zelda game for me is this- the dungeon design, the combat, the bosses, the puzzles and the music. And then, there's the art style, but that's not as important as the aforementioned. In all these areas, Skyward Sword excels. The combat, bosses and puzzles are the best in a 3D Zelda game, and the dungeon design is very good. The music is excellent, and the art style is really good too.

The easy difficult undercuts the quality of the bosses and the combat somewhat, but not nearly enough in my opinion.

Also, the progression of lore and the series' overarching narrative in that game is pure fan service.

Blab and I when discussing this last year came to the conclusion it has more to do with the idiosyncrasies of Zelda, a lot of it being just how fat and bloated those games are (of which I wrote about, back when I actually wrote things on my site), it's a lot of the little shit Zelda does. Yeah the combat has never been deep, but I can't honestly say it's the combat that has turned me off on Zelda. It's not, they are more puzzle games in nature, and there ease of difficulty isn't that hard of a pill to swallow.

But the fucking bitch work in between, the weird way they always do Zelda's story telling which has been more of a con for Zelda since fucking Ocarina of Time, and less a pro, has never been my thing, there idea of clever with Zelda is just bizarre at times. In contrast Metroid to me has always been tighter in the Prime department, whatever misgivings people have with the movement mechanics (and I'm not going to act like people like Mems don't have a valid gripe, calling that shit deliberate is being a bit too nice lol), I do think the actual world design is top notch and outside of one key hunt at the very end, it never feels tedious the way Zelda does. You get more room to play a game that feels like it is escalating naturally or on your terms. Prime 2's backtracking was a pill that was easy to swallow, there was some added depth to Prime 2's puzzle designs, world design, and it was all the more challenging for it. In a lot of ways I agree with foxhound when he called it Metroid's Majora's Mask back then.

That and I adore the way Metroid tells a story in a video game, because you know it's a fucking video game. 2d zeldas benefit so much from their simplicity, 3d zelda I would argue Egoraptor has a huge point when he argued that too many of Zelda's design decisions are based around on this concept of a "formula" things Zelda must have, because Lttp has them, and not enough on how things should change because the game went into 3d.

But you know since it's Zelda, it's beyond reproach, it can never be criticized, you're just a hater if you think Zelda does anything incorrectly.

@khoofia_pika: Yeah, the soundtrack is nice.

I'm with you on some of the dungeon design. In particular, the ancient cistern (best) and sand ship were pretty good. The time crystal stuff was cool.

The look of SS never did anything for me. . It's a great color palate, but aesthetic composition I don't buy the consistency of it and the game world and all the design.

Where as The Wind Waker, everything pops, it goes nicely with the up beat, happy go vibe of sailing and exploring the sea as a kid, and the game design is there as well, the easy nature of the game as I stated is justified more so in Wind Waker, than the sequels. Put it another way I think recently the Giantbomb crew makes an excellent argument for why Splatoon's aesthetic is complete across the board. In terms of the art itself to the mechanics to the music in the game to the outfit design, and all that jazz.

Don't feel that way about SS.

But yeah **** Skyward Sword, what a waste of some exceptional puzzles. I do like the story beats in SS though, that said I'd prefer if Zelda didn't act like the timeline was a thing.

@jg4xchamp: I read that article, I have to say, you hit the nail on the head. Perfectly described what makes ALBW so good and so much better structurally than any Zelda game in recent memory. I'm hoping for similar results in Zelda Wii U/NX but I have a terrible feeling that since it won't be limited by handheld hardware, Nintendo will feel like they need to flesh out its open world with meaningless filler crap and typical shitty Zelda padding. Point is, I don't really care if it was because of hardware limitations or because of a conscious decision that ALBW was structured and designed the way it was- what matters is that it was the perfect template for future Zelda games to follow. I hope Nintendo have enough sense to see that, but you never know with them.

My worry is how they handle open world in a 3d space. It's one thing to do it in 2d, there is an elegance and simplicity to 2d, 3d is more complicated. And Zelda works better on hand crafted design, procedural generation for Zelda to me is blasphemous, and just wing it doesn't seem to be Nintendo's shtick anyway, but I like the idea of multiple ways to get in and out of dungeons. Turn Zelda back into a game about exploring like the original game, and less what it's become now, because as it stands Metroid is the exploring game (Other M noted). Zelda really isn't.

Twilight Princess would have been GOAT tier if it wasn't a monumental disaster of pacing.

I'm quoting this for posterity.

And you do need to replay Majora. It's still a fun, experimental game, but a lot of what it did didn't age well (though kudos to Nintendo for trying to address that stuff in the remake).

I could tolerate everything, but ranking Link's Awakening under Phantom Hourglass is inexcusable

This. All of this. I agree with this:

• The motion controls are bad and shoehorned, except for in the combat, where there are still times that they don't work as intended. ****, I would have taken regular analog/button combat for this game, at least then the onus of failure would have been on me, and not on me doing the right thing and the game being a fucking dick about it. And don't get me started on the bomb rolling/swan diving/key manipulation/flying/swimming controls. Those were literally the worst thing Nintendo has done in a game, I don't know what they were thinking
• The pacing is whack, there are too many fetchquests, the game wastes your time far too much, it has too much bloat.
• There is an utter lack of an overworld or exploration, in a Zelda game
• The repeated tutorials. Good god.
• Fi. **** Fi.
• It has a beautiful artstyle, but it looks muddy as shit. The Wii did it no justice. The new Zelda game looks like what Skyward Sword was trying to go for all along.

Metroid is great. Specifically, three Metroid games are great, another two are very good, the rest are all just 'what the ever loving **** were they thinking.'

Zelda deserves criticism for a lot of things- it does, and you know, I'm a Zelda guy, and I don't shy away from criticizing just about every game in the franchise except for LttP, ALBW, and Link's Awakening. I have no issues with the totally fair criticism that just about every Zelda game can and should get. My issue, well issues, are twofold: one, I dislike this revisionist notion that 3D Zelda is somehow bad or poor, which seems to be a thing lately. 3D Zelda is not bad, they are all exceptionally well designed games that do some things poorly, but are really very good otherwise (and are still better than just about 95% of the other tripe that gets put on the market, and then put on a pedestal- 100 times out of 100, I would play any 3D Zelda sans Skyward Sword over The Last of Us, and The Last of Us is an actual good game that gets put on said pedestal). See, champ, you have legitimate problems, and you lay them out in your regular way of posting, that's fine. Then others come along and run with this somehow misguided notion that 3D Zelda is 'bad.' Jesus Christ, it's not bad, and hell, I think it's easy to forget after the mixed reception of Twilight and Skyward, but Zelda was considered to be one of, like, three franchises in the world that actually managed the transition into 3D well.

The other notion is related, it's that Zelda in 2D is the only one that's worth it, 3D Zelda does not matter. Like, are you kidding me? Again, 3D Zelda has issues, every single 3D Zelda has had issues, even the beloved ones like Ocarina or Majora or Wind Waker, but again, every game has had issues, and Zelda still does what it does exceptionally well (and generally speaking, better than other comparable games on the market, the one exception being Skyward Sword, and Skyward Sword is trash). Like, the whole 'lol3DZelda' movement is bullshit and revisionist, it's not taking into account context, and it's bandwagoning using points that most people who are bandwagoning have very little understanding of- actually playing the games they're trying to criticize might help.

But sure, that aside, as long as there's no broadstrokes 'lolZelda' style criticism, go all out, Zelda deserves, and should get criticism.

@jg4xchamp: I would say its art style is nice, but the execution wasn't great. It's kind of a muddy looking game.

I get what you're saying though, the visuals don't mesh with the world, it feels like the art and the world/mechanics were made separately.

Yeah, should have seen that coming lol

Phantom Hourglass' stupid similicity appealed to me, I don't know why. I found it to be a very enjoyable game, even though it wasn't in keeping with what Zelda has traditionally been about

@khoofia_pika: I mean, I like Phantom Hourglass, I really enjoyed it, but you rank it higher than Link's Awakening

Link's Awakening is more of ALTTP, and Oracle is more of Link's Awakening, and I thought it was outdone by both in every way possible.

Don't hate, everyone is allowed a few quirks :P

Link's Awakening is not just more of ALttP, there is a very legitimate argument to be made (albeit not one I subscribe to myself, but one I hold to be perfectly acceptable) that it is ALttP done better. I have nothing but massive request for just how immaculately well designed that game really was, it's a thing of beauty as far as game design goes.

Phantom Hourglass is... well, not.

I agree that Zelda is at its best when it's set in a 2D landscape. It's simplistic and crisp, it retains what makes Zelda so good and almost always does away with the bloat that 3D Zelda games can be blamed for. The 3D Zelda games do get a lot right, though. If only Nintendo didn't feel the need to fill up those worlds with stuff to do and filler crap (TP was the biggest offender, I think)... It's almost like what Ubisoft does with its open world games, but not nearly as offensive and extreme. In the same vein, though.

It does look like they're gonna focus more on exploration with the new Zelda, but again, I just hope they don't interpret that as a vast open world with meaningless content that ruins the pacing and undercuts the exploration aspect.

Here's the thing- I can see why Phantom Hourglass gets the flak it does, hell, I even agree with it. But do you remember GameSpot's "reviewer's tilt" thingie back when? I guess that's a factor for me here. I can't put my finger on it, but PH was just so stupidly enjoyable that I usually tend to forgive it for most of its shortcomings.

agingisntathingtruegreatdesignistimelesstherealityisthatthethingyouthinkispoornowwasalwaysafuckingissue/10

I am worried that 27 year old me will not like the the Zelda parts of Majora's Mask, and isn't taking into account how much I really like the story.

Yeah going back to Ocarina of Time last year, I would agree, Ocarina is too good at way too many things, it sort of requires you to not give Nintendo credit where credit is due. My beef with 3d zelda has been its status as great, a semantics type deal, but whatever I relish in these semantics. But that's anything, and how obnoxious fans don't respect counter arguments sort of creates that extra backlash and venom. It's stupid, but I at least get how or why people go the extra mile. It's like anything else, it's easier to go with the absolutes lol, but sure it's usually more complicated than that, but that's also why half the forum audience can never handle someone saying negative.

Half of SW just roles with the idea that

A: I hate The Witcher
B: I want it to be Bayonetta

Neither are true, I actually think The Witcher 3 is a pretty good game, the combat is just asscheeks, there is no nice of way putting it lol.

As for Metroid, since whatever

God Tier
1. Super Metroid
2.Metroid Prime

Top Tier
3. Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
4. Pootie Tang
5. Metroid Zero Mission (and by extension OG Metroid)

Mid Tier
6. Metroid Fusion
7. *sigh* Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

Low Tier
8. Metroid: Other M
9. Metroid 2: Return of Samus

GTFO
10. Metroid Prime Hunters

And **** you Metroid pinball is great.

Larger point, I'll take Metroid's best days over Zelda's best days.

@jg4xchamp: Definitely agree, Zelda fans are obnoxious (I actually think fandom in general, and especially for video games, is vile, but that's a discussion for another time), and I can see why there can be sort of a pushback against fans that reuse to entertain the notion that not everyone has to hold Zelda sacred like that do, I can see how that exaggerates some of the backlash, sure.

And man, most posters on SW are just... Well, I mean, there are the good folks, and they're the reason I keep returning to this place, but then there are forks who make me question if this is what we as a species have come to. Then again, I guess that's all the internet at large. There's a shocking inability on people's parts to understand that having legitimate criticism is not hating it, that things aren't a binary love it or hate it, and that drawing a comparison as a point of reference doesn't mean you want one thing to be identical to another.

As for The Witcher 3's combat, I agree. I mean, I still like it, it never actively interfered with my enjoyment (except for this one time where I ran into an enemy that was a damage sponge- trust me, man, you don't want a damage sponge with Witcher 3's combat), but yeah, it was a shocking downgrade from Bloodborne, which I'd just finished right before.

Metroid, I'll go:

Metroid Prime

Super Metroid

Metroid Prime 2: Echoes

Zero Mission

Fusion

Corruption

Hunters

Other M

Return of Samus

I finished OoT about two years ago and it's one of my favourite adventures of all time. The water temple was freaking hard because everything looked the same. But walking around enough should make it easier. I think I'd still get lost there lol. But overall it's a game that I hold in high regard and it's fantastically crafted if I would describe it. Love the adventures nature in its soundtrack and art.

I played MM last year and it's a totally different atmosphere from OoT. They did a 180 with this one. It's creepy But also not your typical creepy. It's lighter. Excuse me for the lack of a better word. It was fantastic and the puzzles were pretty good. Unfortunately due to other matters in my life it's on hiatus but I did reach the swamp with the old witch. I will resume someday.

Wind weaker is still wrapped in plastic waiting to be played.

I played the four swords adventure and enjoyed it a bit. Those are pretty much my Zelda adventures.

If OoT is considered mid tier then I can't wait to play A link to the past. Where can I play it? Is it on the Eshop?

Also if you guys think Zelda fans are obnoxious then take a look at the elitist Souls fanbase.

I haven't played a zelda game since Wind Waker's original release.

it's on the eShop on Wii and Wii U. A Link to the Past is literal, legitimate gaming perfection. This is not hyperbole, this is a fact, and you will find this opinion to be widely held. There is not a single thing about that game that really warrants improvement, not a single part of it that is slow or unnecessary. The entire game just sings together, it is an amazing accomplishment, and I think the only (or at worst, one of two) example(s) we have of a real, actual perfect game.

I've never played a zelda game before :P

@finalstar2007: you're missing out on some of the best gaming experiences you can get. 3DS should suffice. It has at least 4 Zelda games. Not to mention some RPG goodness. BC with DS too which offers a ton more games you missed out on. There's no better time to get a 3DS than now with its crazy good library of games and DS games. Gaming heaven right there. I just wish I had more time to sit and play the thing.

@charizard1605: that's some high praise man. I'll be getting it and splatoon in a few days then.

Holy shit... talking to this Juub1990 guy is like bashing your head against a very stupid wall.

Im over handhelds man i dont play much handhelds anymore but i have been addicted to the neptunia games on vita, once i beat them i doubt i'll be touching the vita anytime soon heck i havent been gaming a lot in general to begin with.. feels like im in that zone where i gotta take a break from gaming :P

@Zassimick said:

@charizard1605 said:

Zelda deserves criticism for a lot of things- it does, and you know, I'm a Zelda guy, and I don't shy away from criticizing just about every game in the franchise except for LttP, ALBW, and Link's Awakening. I have no issues with the totally fair criticism that just about every Zelda game can and should get. My issue, well issues, are twofold: one, I dislike this revisionist notion that 3D Zelda is somehow bad or poor, which seems to be a thing lately. 3D Zelda is not bad, they are all exceptionally well designed games that do some things poorly, but are really very good otherwise (and are still better than just about 95% of the other tripe that gets put on the market, and then put on a pedestal- 100 times out of 100, I would play any 3D Zelda sans Skyward Sword over The Last of Us, and The Last of Us is an actual good game that gets put on said pedestal). See, champ, you have legitimate problems, and you lay them out in your regular way of posting, that's fine. Then others come along and run with this somehow misguided notion that 3D Zelda is 'bad.' Jesus Christ, it's not bad, and hell, I think it's easy to forget after the mixed reception of Twilight and Skyward, but Zelda was considered to be one of, like, three franchises in the world that actually managed the transition into 3D well.

The other notion is related, it's that Zelda in 2D is the only one that's worth it, 3D Zelda does not matter. Like, are you kidding me? Again, 3D Zelda has issues, every single 3D Zelda has had issues, even the beloved ones like Ocarina or Majora or Wind Waker, but again, every game has had issues, and Zelda still does what it does exceptionally well (and generally speaking, better than other comparable games on the market, the one exception being Skyward Sword, and Skyward Sword is trash). Like, the whole 'lol3DZelda' movement is bullshit and revisionist, it's not taking into account context, and it's bandwagoning using points that most people who are bandwagoning have very little understanding of- actually playing the games they're trying to criticize might help.

But sure, that aside, as long as there's no broadstrokes 'lolZelda' style criticism, go all out, Zelda deserves, and should get criticism.

Aaaand this is why you're the best Charizard.

@khoofia_pika: let me guess.. The PC elitist dude?

Also how is Divinity so far? I hope it's good since I'll be buying some games soon and I'd like to incorporate this into my purchase list.

@finalstar2007: I recommend P4G. A huge time sink and will keep you busy from building up that backlog of games lol.

I don't know if he's a PC elitist, but have you read his posts in the "define an RPG" thread? Dude is straight up stupid and keeps going around in circles, refusing to acknowledge anyone else's argument. Keeps repeating the same shit over and over like he's actually making a point. If you have the time and want some serious entertainment (or want to get seriously angry, depending on your mood and temperament lol), read his thread.

And Divinity is really good. I've only played it for like 6-7 hours so far (on account of being busy with a lot of other vacation-y stuff), and I realize that's only given me a taste of what it's like, but I'm really liking it. It's refreshing how little it holds your hand and spoon-feeds you. Throws you into its world, tells you its mechanics, and lets you use them and explore however you want, whenever you want, usually without any annoying cues or "hints". Very pleasantly refreshing. Oh, and purely from a design perspective, a very well made game. You should definitely get it.

@khoofia_pika: that is going to be an interesting read. But I LOL ed at the Pokemon is not an RPG part. I think we have thread of the year material here lol. Pokemon is not an RPG lol.

So divinity is pretty much my style of game, ala souls series . Nice thanks i'll including it in my games to buy list. I wish more games are like it, but I understand that developers have to appease to the console audience. Still it's nice to see some developers not afraid to take that step and let the player handle himself.

Worst part is he's not backing down, and a childish part of me is telling me to get into a petty insult-throwing argument with him because that's what I'll probably have to resort to to shut him up. Not gonna do it though, gotta be more mature than that :P

You'll definitely like Divinity if you like the Souls games. They're not very similar, to be truthful, but a lot of what makes the Souls games good is also what makes D:OS so good. I don't mind the games appealing to the lowest common denominator as long as I get to play the likes of Bloodborne, Souls and D:OS every now and then. Makes for a nice balance lol

@khoofia_pika: yeah don't stoop to his level. Be the mature one here brother.

Also exactly what I mean. It has that souls quality to it based on the description. It doesn't hold your hand. It just gives you the tools and sets you free to explore its amazingly crafted world. Very refreshing in this day when most games just hold your hand and lead you like GTA for example. I can't believe GTAV had a mission where you have to mop the floor lol and it had to teach me how to lol.

I did get a fair bit of insults in but I stopped before it got ugly(er) :P

And oh god that mission. I wanted to give up on the game when it was making me do that. People hating on games for being "walking simulators" don't know how good they have it lol

@charizard1605: The 2D LoZ games suck, plain and simple. Sorry but MM, WW, Twlp and AlbW are all better than the 2D crappy LoZ games.

Batman Arkham City is the best 3D Zelda game.

QFT

@charizard1605: Yup, first one. I just beat the BJ boss.

@a-new-guardian: Good advice bro. Yeah Khoof, you are better than reflecting insults. I used to do the same thing. I'd try to be civil with folks and despite that, on occasion, someone would say something offensive to me and I'd lash out in anger and disbelief. Always ended up regretting it later too, even if I was justified in doing so.

It's just not worth bringing yourself down and being miserable over this dumb stuff. In the end, all those insults don't mean a damn thing, and are soon forgotten about. Your (and all of our) words will always shine brighter when they keep the attention on what you're passionate about.

Very true. Could have handled that better, admittedly. Decided it would be better for the thread (and for my brain lol) if I just stopped replying altogether :P

hai

hi thar

where've you been all this time

@khoofia_pika: Where? In front of my computer mostly!