System Wars Myths/Arguments That Need to Die - Complete Edition with bonus

"unless some extremely major, unforseen events take place the wii has this generation won as far as sales are concerned"

I was with you until here.

So, the wii has already won?

Last gen, about 175 million consoles were sold. About 25 (I'm being very, very generous here) million were sold this gen. If the market were to somehow remain the same size,(which is absurd considering its constant growth, not to mention the new gamers brought be the wii), we would be about 1/7 the way through this gen.

Calling it over 1/7 of the way is preposterous. It's like calling a football(American) game after the first 8 1/2 minutes, its ridiculous.

Not to mention many people predicting that the wii is just a fad. It's impossible to predict how the next 6/7 of this generation will unfold. As they say, it's not over till it's over.

Edit: Oh, and since the wii will most likely have the shortest life span of the three, It will have to consistently sell at a much faster rate than the other two.

[QUOTE="Heil68"]Well I respect you post's and your views. I think you're one of the more educated people we have on here. I'm not being a smart ass either. I want to know who is entitled to the "winner". I take it PS2 lost last gen then too, right? I can show thread after thread of Sheep claiming victory with NO mention of the PC. I ask your help in correcting the errors of their ways. =)Jandurin

What would be entertaining is if a console clearly became better than the PC. That would be wild.

what would it take to get 300 million console units into peoples homes?Heil68

Virtual Reality for cheap could do it.

what would it take to get 300 million console units into peoples homes?Heil68

Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.

So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.

[QUOTE="Heil68"] what would it take to get 300 million console units into peoples homes?Hoobinator

Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.

So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.

They don't even have to rely on the backwards compatibility to win. :P

Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.Hoobinator

what would it take to get 300 million console units into peoples homes?Heil68

A bulldozer?

[QUOTE="Heil68"]what would it take to get 300 million console units into peoples homes?Tylendal

A bulldozer?

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.Heil68

You =/= General Population. Most of the games that come along with PC's (as I've stated) are casual games, card games, pinball crap.

As a proper gaming system the PC does not sell that well. Most people do not buy PC's as a gaming system. If you want proof on this look at the games market on the PC and it's size is actually smaller than the PS2, much smaller. Look at the sales of stand alone GPU'S and you'll see it really is a niche market. Neither NVidia nor ATi sell that many GPU's in comparison to consoles, especially PS2. One of the most profitable PC GPU sectors is actually the integrated graphics card. They're crap for games but companies buy them up to bundle in their PC's as a low cost neccessity for graphics output. They are pathetic when it comes to actually running games.

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.Hoobinator

You =/= General Population. Most of the games that come along with PC's (as I've stated) are casual games, card games, pinball crap.

As a proper gaming system the PC does not sell that well. Most people do not buy PC's as a gaming system. If you want proof on this look at the games market on the PC and it's size is actually smaller than the PS2, much smaller. Look at the sales of stand alone GPU'S and you'll see it really is a niche market. Neither NVidia nor ATi sell that many GPU's in comparison to consoles, especially PS2. One of the most profitable PC GPU sectors is actually the integrated graphics card. They're crap for games but companies buy them up to bundle in their PC's as a low cost neccessity for graphics output. They are pathetic when it comes to actually running games.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"]what would it take to get 300 million console units into peoples homes?Heil68

A bulldozer?

Something new and revolutionary. Something with the innovation of the Wii, the power of the PS3, the current price of the Gamecube, and the multi-media functionality of the I-Phone or the 360.

Well I respect you post's and your views. I think you're one of the more educated people we have on here. I'm not being a smart ass either. I want to know who is entitled to the "winner". I take it PS2 lost last gen then too, right? I can show thread after thread of Sheep claiming victory with NO mention of the PC. I ask your help in correcting the errors of their ways. =)Heil68

Well, I think we should have a say in this....:P

PC's don't count in sales for a pretty obvious reason: They aren't gaming machines first and foremost. You could say PC always wins, but that would mean basically nil. ;)

[QUOTE="Heil68"] Well I respect you post's and your views. I think you're one of the more educated people we have on here. I'm not being a smart ass either. I want to know who is entitled to the "winner". I take it PS2 lost last gen then too, right? I can show thread after thread of Sheep claiming victory with NO mention of the PC. I ask your help in correcting the errors of their ways. =)Tsug_Ze_Wind

then the argument why buy a 360 when I have a PC fails..which it doesn't so sales Do matter ;)Heil68

Uhhh....no.

If I could play Motorstorm on an Etch-A-Sketch, it wouldn't be exclusive. :P

[QUOTE="Heil68"] then the argument why buy a 360 when I have a PC fails..which it doesn't so sales Do matter ;)Tsug_Ze_Wind

Uhhh....no.

If I could play Motorstorm on an Etch-A-Sketch, it wouldn't be exclusive. :P

[QUOTE="Heil68"] Well I respect you post's and your views. I think you're one of the more educated people we have on here. I'm not being a smart ass either. I want to know who is entitled to the "winner". I take it PS2 lost last gen then too, right? I can show thread after thread of Sheep claiming victory with NO mention of the PC. I ask your help in correcting the errors of their ways. =)Tsug_Ze_Wind

Well, I think we should have a say in this....:P

PC's don't count in sales for a pretty obvious reason: They aren't gaming machines first and foremost. You could say PC always wins, but that would mean basically nil. ;)

Like I said, everyone knows the PC will win. The PC always wins, so what's the point.

Well I can install a game on any pc..And Windows comes with 11 games in of itself and you can play free games online.Heil68

That's nice, ask the average person what they use their PC for. ;)

[QUOTE="Heil68"] Well I can install a game on any pc..And Windows comes with 11 games in of itself and you can play free games online.Tsug_Ze_Wind

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"][QUOTE="Heil68"] Well I can install a game on any pc..And Windows comes with 11 games in of itself and you can play free games online.Heil68

Okay, have fun on your happy cloud.

Everyone wins! :D

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"][QUOTE="Heil68"] Well I can install a game on any pc..And Windows comes with 11 games in of itself and you can play free games online.Heil68

Okay, we all know PC will be first place. Always has been, always will be. It even killed the gaming market in the U.S. in 1984. Now can we get back to arguing about second place.

Okay, we all know PC will be first place. Always has been, always will be. It even killed the gaming market in the U.S. in 1984. Now can we get back to arguing about second place.

Tylendal

Pacifist! :P

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.Heil68

You =/= General Population. Most of the games that come along with PC's (as I've stated) are casual games, card games, pinball crap.

As a proper gaming system the PC does not sell that well. Most people do not buy PC's as a gaming system. If you want proof on this look at the games market on the PC and it's size is actually smaller than the PS2, much smaller. Look at the sales of stand alone GPU'S and you'll see it really is a niche market. Neither NVidia nor ATi sell that many GPU's in comparison to consoles, especially PS2. One of the most profitable PC GPU sectors is actually the integrated graphics card. They're crap for games but companies buy them up to bundle in their PC's as a low cost neccessity for graphics output. They are pathetic when it comes to actually running games.

A $400 PC won't run the latest games, heck wouldn't run 2 year old games at decent settings. The point is you can't lump all PC's into one big broad category and say "look how well the PC is selling, it's the number 1 selling games machine" when clearly most people buy their PC for non-gaming purposes and game very little on them. PC gaming is not a big market.

PC's do NOT automatically win SW as gaming machines. You seem to combine cumulative sales across generations and then pass it off as PC sales supremacy when clearly it would win. It's akin to counting all PS consoles as one and saying Sony wins in sales. You got to split the generations up as the consoles do, other wise you are comparing to completely different standards.

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Most people who buy PC's do not do so for the gaming. Most PC's are not used for games, or if they are then it is occassional gaming, usually old software or free internet games.So to use this argument to show that the PC sold the most as a gaming platform is wrong.Hoobinator

You =/= General Population. Most of the games that come along with PC's (as I've stated) are casual games, card games, pinball crap.

As a proper gaming system the PC does not sell that well. Most people do not buy PC's as a gaming system. If you want proof on this look at the games market on the PC and it's size is actually smaller than the PS2, much smaller. Look at the sales of stand alone GPU'S and you'll see it really is a niche market. Neither NVidia nor ATi sell that many GPU's in comparison to consoles, especially PS2. One of the most profitable PC GPU sectors is actually the integrated graphics card. They're crap for games but companies buy them up to bundle in their PC's as a low cost neccessity for graphics output. They are pathetic when it comes to actually running games.

A $400 PC won't run the latest games, heck wouldn't run 2 year old games at decent settings. The point is you can't lump all PC's into one big broad category and say "look how well the PC is selling, it's the number 1 selling games machine" when clearly most people buy their PC for non-gaming purposes and game very little on them. PC gaming is not a big market.

PC's do NOT automatically win SW as gaming machines. You seem to combine cumulative sales across generations and then pass it off as PC sales supremacy when clearly it would win. It's akin to counting all PS consoles as one and saying Sony wins in sales. You got to split the generations up as the consoles do, other wise you are comparing to completely different standards.

Ifthe PC wins becuase it sells the most argument is valid, then cellphones win the handheld race. Any cellphone can play basic games and some of the advanced ones (smartphones) with Palm or Windows OS can play some much more advanced games. So DS with sales of 30+ million lag far from the the cellphone (have no figues, but I know it is the 100's of millions per year). In fact according to the is logic the I-pod doesn;t win the MP3 market - once again it is cellphones. This one I have a link for: http://1vc.typepad.com/soaring_on_ridgelift/2007/04/mp3_capable_cel.html

And going even further cellphones win the digital camera race also.

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

Jandurin

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

In fact I can use Casey's 360/PC argument - the main reason I have no use for a DS or a PSP is because any time I would have a need for it I can play games on my phone. Waiting in line, shopping with the wife, etc.

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

thew13

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

[QUOTE="thew13"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

Jandurin

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

This is system wars, people argue about everything

In fact Gamespot hasan areafor cellphone games:

http://www.gamespot.com/mobile

And looky here a review for Sims2 for cellphones:

http://www.gamespot.com/mobile/strategy/thesims2mobile/review.html?sid=6143369

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

thew13

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

In fact I can use Casey's 360/PC argument - the main reason I have no use for a DS or a PSP is because any time I would have a need for it I can play games on my phone. Waiting in line, shopping with the wife, etc.

Your mistaking one of the reasons we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming as the only reason we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming.

You can't just pick one point out of an argument, then attack the point as being logically contradictory when it makes sense in the context of a larger argument.

[QUOTE="thew13"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

Danm_999

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

In fact I can use Casey's 360/PC argument - the main reason I have no use for a DS or a PSP is because any time I would have a need for it I can play games on my phone. Waiting in line, shopping with the wife, etc.

Your mistaking one of the reasons we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming as the only reason we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming.

You can't just pick one point out of an argument, then attack the point as being logically contradictory when it makes sense in the context of a larger argument.

Read all my post in this topic. Iam not saying PC gaming can't be compared with console gaming.

Casey's point is there is competion to whatever degree. Well to some degree (very small) mobile phone gaming competes with DS and PSP. Casey has argued all along that the degree of competition doesn't matter, only that there is competion - that is why this is system wars not console wars. By that standard mobile phone gaming has to be considered here also when debating handheld systems.

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="thew13"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

thew13

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

In fact I can use Casey's 360/PC argument - the main reason I have no use for a DS or a PSP is because any time I would have a need for it I can play games on my phone. Waiting in line, shopping with the wife, etc.

Your mistaking one of the reasons we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming as the only reason we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming.

You can't just pick one point out of an argument, then attack the point as being logically contradictory when it makes sense in the context of a larger argument.

Read all my post in this topic. Iam not saying PC gaming can't be compared with console gaming.

Casey's point is there is competion to whatever degree. Well to some degree (very small) mobile phone gaming competes with DS and PSP. Casey has argued all along that the degree of competition doesn't matter, only that there is competion - that is why this is system wars not console wars. By that standard mobile phone gaming has to be considered here also when debating handheld systems.

Actually, his point was that since PC gaming affects the sales of console gaming (due to them sharing a lot of titles and the PC being so common, but that's my argument), it needs to be included.

Mobile phones do not affect the sales of consoles, since it is very, very rare for a console and a mobile game to be viable alternatives that are essentially the same in terms of gameplay. You can then see why that slippery slope way of thinking doesn't invalidate the PC, and doesn't validate mobile phones.

[QUOTE="thew13"][QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="thew13"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

We aren't worried about cameras here.

I think when you get into the ambiguous PC/cell phone non-game systems that can also play games, you have to go by actual games released and quality of said games.

Danm_999

Going by the logic of the above argument it doesn't matter - you can play games on your cellphone - it counts as a handheld

In fact I can use Casey's 360/PC argument - the main reason I have no use for a DS or a PSP is because any time I would have a need for it I can play games on my phone. Waiting in line, shopping with the wife, etc.

Your mistaking one of the reasons we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming as the only reason we consider PC gaming alongside console gaming.

You can't just pick one point out of an argument, then attack the point as being logically contradictory when it makes sense in the context of a larger argument.

Read all my post in this topic. Iam not saying PC gaming can't be compared with console gaming.

Casey's point is there is competion to whatever degree. Well to some degree (very small) mobile phone gaming competes with DS and PSP. Casey has argued all along that the degree of competition doesn't matter, only that there is competion - that is why this is system wars not console wars. By that standard mobile phone gaming has to be considered here also when debating handheld systems.

Actually, his point was that since PC gaming affects the sales of console gaming (due to them sharing a lot of titles and the PC being so common, but that's my argument), it needs to be included.

Mobile phones do not affect the sales of consoles, since it is very, very rare for a console and a mobile game to be viable alternatives that are essentially the same in terms of gameplay. You can then see why that slippery slope way of thinking doesn't invalidate the PC, and doesn't validate mobile phones.

Your bringing real world logic into the argument. I realize what you are saying is true.(exceptI was comparing cellphones to handhelds not consoles), but real world logic doesn't comn into play here in SW. By SW logic and rules, cellphones must be in the argument when discussing handhelds. They have a much higher sale rate and do to some extent play similar games to handhelds - two examples: Tetris and Sims

My reason for not wanting a handheld(becuase I can do my mobile gaming on my Treo) is as valid asCasey's(or anyone else with the same reason)reason for not having a 360(too may games the same as PC)

Thats SW's...Not my rules...read back..its the way it is..Heil68

OK, I suppose by this new rule that Mobile Phones win SW outright. Mobile Phone sales are close to the billion mark, and nearly all of them can play a game or two, (snakes, card games etc). So they too must be counted as a platform.

Mobile Phones beat PC and win SW. Checkmate. :|

Checkmate. :|Hoobinator

Tables ftw! There must be a trillion of 'em.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Checkmate. :|Jandurin

Tables ftw! There must be a trillion of 'em.

Although it doesn't quite fit in, (you don't need a table to play games, you can use the floor etc etc), it highlights the completely idiocy of counting all PC's as gaming machines.

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Checkmate. :|Hoobinator

Tables ftw! There must be a trillion of 'em.

Although it doesn't quite fit in, (you don't need a table to play games, you can use the floor etc etc), it highlights the completely idiocy of counting all PC's as gaming machines.

The question here is, are we losing console/PC game sales because of the existence of board games.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Checkmate. :|Jandurin

Tables ftw! There must be a trillion of 'em.

Although it doesn't quite fit in, (you don't need a table to play games, you can use the floor etc etc), it highlights the completely idiocy of counting all PC's as gaming machines.

The question here is, are we losing console/PC game sales because of the existence of board games.

That wasn't my point that I was arguing. All I was arguing is that it is wrong to count all PC's as gaming machines and adding up their total sales to say they win SW in sales. If people want this rule to apply then the Mobile Phone argument can be presented to them.

That wasn't my point that I was arguing. All I was arguing is that it is wrong to count all PC's as gaming machines and adding up their total sales to say they win SW in sales. If people want this rule to apply then the Mobile Phone argument can be presented to them.Hoobinator

I think mobile phones can EASILY be counted against handhelds, just no one chooses to... as they would get laughed at. They would technically be correct.

I'm just wondering whether board games are in competition with video games. I'm not really arguing anything, just wandering in and out of threads aimlessly.

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"] Checkmate. :|Hoobinator

Tables ftw! There must be a trillion of 'em.

Although it doesn't quite fit in, (you don't need a table to play games, you can use the floor etc etc), it highlights the completely idiocy of counting all PC's as gaming machines.

The question here is, are we losing console/PC game sales because of the existence of board games.

That wasn't my point that I was arguing. All I was arguing is that it is wrong to count all PC's as gaming machines and adding up their total sales to say they win SW in sales. If people want this rule to apply then the Mobile Phone argument can be presented to them.

My point exacly - although it seems my points above were totally ignored in the cellphone/mobile debate

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]That wasn't my point that I was arguing. All I was arguing is that it is wrong to count all PC's as gaming machines and adding up their total sales to say they win SW in sales. If people want this rule to apply then the Mobile Phone argument can be presented to them.Jandurin

I think mobile phones can EASILY be counted against handhelds, just no one chooses to... as they would get laughed at. They would technically be correct.

I'm just wondering whether board games are in competition with video games. I'm not really arguing anything, just wandering in and out of threads aimlessly.

Everything can be argued to be in competition with everything else, because at the end of the day they're all after your money, which you have a finite amount of.

As far as proper segmentation of markets go, usually casual / flash / board games are not in direct competition to videogames. Look at the different demographics they market to. A board or flash game is just as likely to be played by your mum as it is anyone else, but a game like MGS is quite a niche market played only by avid videogame players. A non-gamer or even a very casual gamer is not the audience that MGS is targeted towards.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]That wasn't my point that I was arguing. All I was arguing is that it is wrong to count all PC's as gaming machines and adding up their total sales to say they win SW in sales. If people want this rule to apply then the Mobile Phone argument can be presented to them.Jandurin

I think mobile phones can EASILY be counted against handhelds, just no one chooses to... as they would get laughed at. They would technically be correct.

I'm just wondering whether board games are in competition with video games. I'm not really arguing anything, just wandering in and out of threads aimlessly.

Remember it was you a few pages back that told me(although I knew it already) that SW and the Real world are not the same. By system wars rules cellphones must be considered as mobile gaming devices - doesn't matter who uses them to play video games, they can play games and some can play very sophisticated games.

EA (the biggest videogame maker, I believe?) makes games for cellphones - that alone tells you there is a market and it competes with other handheld devices

http://www.eamobile.com/Web/Catalog/

But, it is direct competition that Hoobinator specified as a rule and it rings true. Everything is in competition for our money that we work for, but only some things are in DIRECT competition.

And, cell phones/handhelds do have some overlap, so it would be a fair comparison. It's just unlikely anyone would take you seriously.

And who would the cellphone fanboys be?

Like, the opposite of hermits...bizarro hermits! :P

And who would the cellphone fanboys be?

Like, the opposite of hermits...bizarro hermits! :P

Tsug_Ze_Wind

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

And who would the cellphone fanboys be?

Like, the opposite of hermits...bizarro hermits! :P

Jandurin

The bizarro hermit sock puppets! Win.

[QUOTE="Grenade-V"][This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]CaseyWegner

wow. that's a ban.

See that should not be allowed...Now we all have to see here and wonder what was said.