The FALLOUT 3 Reality Thread

Here's a study in "missing the point", courtesy of Fallout 3's lead designer:

[quote="Emil Pagliarulo"]There are some people who say that making an 18-rated game, and especially making a Fallout one, should be about sleeping with the hooker, then waking up with the venereal disease. A lot of that stuff personally, to me, veers into being a 12-year old dungeon master.

Some of it feels right and some of it feels wrong. We're appealing to an adult audience and it's a tough call. I mean, once you have groin shots you're approaching a level of silliness that, if you're not careful, can pervade the whole game.Zeliard9

Here's another courtesy of Pete Hines, the Marketing VP, trying to describe Fallout's humor:

The dark and often violent humor is a large question mark. Pete Hines noted in an interview with SpoNG "You know, the humour in Fallout 3 is that you can get a weapon and blow a guy to a bloody mess, then when you pull up your interface, you see a little smiling cartoon character holding his thumb up. Like that's funny… funny not in terms of jokes or winks at the camera and such…" If you were to ask any experienced gamer, or very likely any Fallout designer, to define Fallout's humor, that would not be their answer.NMA

wow, bethesda made the game fun and it doesn't take 4 hours to figure out what you're doing, that's horribleWINDWAKER1

Don't feed the troll

wow, bethesda made the game fun and it doesn't take 4 hours to figure out what you're doing, that's horribleWINDWAKER1

fun is subjective.

wow, bethesda made the game fun and it doesn't take 4 hours to figure out what you're doing, that's horribleWINDWAKER1

Fallout didnt have a steep learning curve gameplay wise?

[QUOTE="WINDWAKER1"]wow, bethesda made the game fun and it doesn't take 4 hours to figure out what you're doing, that's horribleMeu2k7

Fallout didnt have a steep learning curve gameplay wise?

point and click is just too much for some people i guess.

Subrosian,

Thanks a bunch for killing the hype I had for this game. j/k :P

Nice post as always - I think you make some valid points from the prospective of a Core Fallout fan and I certainly understand why this new game is sorta making you cringe a bit.

That said, I have been following some of the news on this game but have yet to see or read about someone who has actually played the game in even a almost ready for sale version to it's completion.

Please, if possible, tell us if you were able to play some of the game or is this you're feeling based upon the available news from the dev. or blogs ?

I certainly can appreciate the concerns from a nostalgic view point but I also really want the game to be great fun and the dev. should innovate without spoiling the franchise which I continue to hope what the completed game will deliver because I just umm, Really want this game. :D

Can we safely hold out some hope that Fallout 3 will be a great RPG worth spending many hours playing ?

Eh, we've heard it before 1,000 times...Fallout 3 is a disgrace, Bethesda is the devil. Listen. They gave me Morrowind. Until they produce 5 games inferior to Morrowind (Oblivion is number 1) then I can start hating them. Until that happens...Fallout 3 ftw + Day 1 purchase.TheSystemLord1

Bethesda is simply the wrong developer for this kind of game too, they are good at combat, not at story and diolougue, which is what Fallout was known for....

If Black Isle cant do it, than at least a better RPG developer than Bethesda, like Bioware, Blizzard, or CD Prjeckt, who would actually be really good for a fallout game since their so good at making non- black and white stories, with very good story altering decisions (the witcher)

Here's a study in "missing the point", courtesy of Fallout 3's lead designer:

There are some people who say that making an 18-rated game, and especially making a Fallout one, should be about sleeping with the hooker, then waking up with the venereal disease. A lot of that stuff personally, to me, veers into being a 12-year old dungeon master.

Some of it feels right and some of it feels wrong. We're appealing to an adult audience and it's a tough call. I mean, once you have groin shots you're approaching a level of silliness that, if you're not careful, can pervade the whole game.Emil Pagliarulo

Here's another courtesy of Pete Hines, the Marketing VP, trying to describe Fallout's humor:

The dark and often violent humor is a large question mark. Pete Hines noted in an interview with SpoNG "You know, the humour in Fallout 3 is that you can get a weapon and blow a guy to a bloody mess, then when you pull up your interface, you see a little smiling cartoon character holding his thumb up. Like that's funny… funny not in terms of jokes or winks at the camera and such…" If you were to ask any experienced gamer, or very likely any Fallout designer, to define Fallout's humor, that would not be their answer.NMA

*Reads* "the lusty argonion maden"

Wow bethasoft is retarded

TL; DR

bawwww

if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Nolan16

Interesting post, sub. But the commercialization of hardcore games is inevitable. Especially when the original developer goes belly-up and someone else comes in to take their place.

Think Shadowrun.

If you don't want to play it, just skip the title. For others, it'll be a glimpse into a new world...for old players, it'll be a taste of what they've missed.

But not buying the game won't speed along the creation of a "true" Fallout game. Not buying will only mean financial losses for Bethesda and a community of developers that will say, "that universe is dead...we better not put any of our money into that mess". There's nothing to win here. Only "loose" or "loose everything", IMO.

Take your pick. Since I've never played Fallout, that's more of a choice for people like yourself to make.

[QUOTE="TheSystemLord1"]Eh, we've heard it before 1,000 times...Fallout 3 is a disgrace, Bethesda is the devil. Listen. They gave me Morrowind. Until they produce 5 games inferior to Morrowind (Oblivion is number 1) then I can start hating them. Until that happens...Fallout 3 ftw + Day 1 purchase.Ibacai

It's not as if someone forced Bethesda to design it like Oblivion or something. So he has to blame Bethesda.

[QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="Pariah_001"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Also, Fallout 3 is FAR from a casual game, sorry. Its story, gameplay. It just doesn't fit into that casual demographic.skrat_01

Yes it does. Roided up graphics paired up with twitch gameplay and topic markers (as opposed to dialogue trees) is most assuredly casual.

Not to mention first person shooting present int the game

I mean seriously.

200 years later and the cars explode like mini nukes.

*facepalm*

It's Bethesda. It'll work. Maybe it sounds stupid on paper...but...they'll make it work.

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Dreams-Visions

Interesting post, sub. But the commercialization of hardcore games is inevitable. Especially when the original developer goes belly-up and someone else comes in to take their place.

Think Shadowrun.

If you don't want to play it, just skip the title. For others, it'll be a glimpse into a new world...for old players, it'll be a taste of what they've missed.

But not buying the game won't speed along the creation of a "true" Fallout game. Not buying will only mean financial losses for Bethesda and a community of developers that will say, "that universe is dead...we better not put any of our money into that mess". There's nothing to win here. Only "loose" or "loose everything", IMO.

Take your pick. Since I've never played Fallout, that's more of a choice for people like yourself to make.

Yes, Unfortunatly this is the reality, all I can hope for is they dont make the same mistakes they made with Oblivion, scaled leveling and relentlessly rehashed areas.

Scaled Leveling will crush it for me, I'l have to wait for a total conversion AGAIN. I hope thier level system is experiance based aswell, Ive never ever liked Elder Scrolls leveling system.

Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.BioShockOwnz

Kill hardcore gaming?? ....!!! Oo How youll do that m8? There are many millions hardcores gamers or even proffessional especially in europe - korea. How youll stop them ?

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Meu2k7

Interesting post, sub. But the commercialization of hardcore games is inevitable. Especially when the original developer goes belly-up and someone else comes in to take their place.

Think Shadowrun.

If you don't want to play it, just skip the title. For others, it'll be a glimpse into a new world...for old players, it'll be a taste of what they've missed.

But not buying the game won't speed along the creation of a "true" Fallout game. Not buying will only mean financial losses for Bethesda and a community of developers that will say, "that universe is dead...we better not put any of our money into that mess". There's nothing to win here. Only "loose" or "loose everything", IMO.

Take your pick. Since I've never played Fallout, that's more of a choice for people like yourself to make.

Yes, Unfortunatly this is the reality, all I can hope for is they dont make the same mistakes they made with Oblivion, scaled leveling and relentlessly rehashed areas.

Scaled Leveling will crush it for me, I'l have to wait for a total conversion AGAIN. I hope thier level system is experiance based aswell, Ive never ever liked Elder Scrolls leveling system.

I fully expect the same "mistakes" (if that's what you want to call them)...primarially because...those decisions helped make their Oblivion game AAA and GoTY in many places. It's hard to convince a developer a decision was bad when it results in AAA status.

I don't expect an Oblivion clone with a Fallout skin or something...but I wouldn't be suprised if many of the same programming concepts remained. As they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...and they'd probably say that wasn't broken (even if it was the biggest flaw).

[QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="Pariah_001"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Also, Fallout 3 is FAR from a casual game, sorry. Its story, gameplay. It just doesn't fit into that casual demographic.Dreams-Visions

Yes it does. Roided up graphics paired up with twitch gameplay and topic markers (as opposed to dialogue trees) is most assuredly casual.

Not to mention first person shooting present int the game

I mean seriously.

200 years later and the cars explode like mini nukes.

*facepalm*

It's Bethesda. It'll work. Maybe it sounds stupid on paper...but...they'll make it work.

Even in Fallout 1 and 2, cars were wrecks - exept for one working one in FO2.

You would think that in 200 years + the engines would have ceased working, and cars would have been looted of their interiors and valuables.

It just seems to be there to make pretty explosions during fire fights. From a design perspective - in the game universe it just looks stupid.

Maybe so, but was there any game critic out there that actually praised the Scaled Leveling? Thugs and Bandits with Dreadic(SP) armour? It was completely messed up.

The old system got AAA aswell, so it could go either way, I guess we will find out either way :P

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.AzatiS

Kill hardcore gaming?? ....!!! Oo How youll do that m8? There are many millions hardcores gamers or even proffessional especially in europe - korea. How youll stop them ?

Buy expaning the mainstream just means you are going to attract more 'new' gamers, which will result in even more people becomming hardcore gamers eventually, which will increase the demmand for games with more depth.

Its like half the market wants to reverse engeneer the progressiveness of game design, only to result in making these basic designs complex again as the market shifts.

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.AzatiS

Kill hardcore gaming?? ....!!! Oo How youll do that m8? There are many millions hardcores gamers or even proffessional especially in europe - korea. How youll stop them ?

When people say "hardcore gaming" in this context, they mean games that are ultra taylored to somewhat smallish audiences. Games that you may have to really love gaming to enjoy. Gameplay mechanics that are either "love 'em or hate 'em."

In this context, they're not referring to games that people log lost of hours on. Meh...it's kinda wierd to explain, but I hope that helped.

Show me a video of you playing Fallout 3. Otherwise, this is just pointless speculation.dracula_16

It is specualtion but there is plenty of reason behind the cynicism.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"][QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="naval"][QUOTE="Pariah_001"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Also, Fallout 3 is FAR from a casual game, sorry. Its story, gameplay. It just doesn't fit into that casual demographic.skrat_01

Yes it does. Roided up graphics paired up with twitch gameplay and topic markers (as opposed to dialogue trees) is most assuredly casual.

Not to mention first person shooting present int the game

I mean seriously.

200 years later and the cars explode like mini nukes.

*facepalm*

It's Bethesda. It'll work. Maybe it sounds stupid on paper...but...they'll make it work.

Even in Fallout 1 and 2, cars were wrecks - exept for one working one in FO2.

You would think that in 200 years + the engines would have ceased working, and cars would have been looted of their interiors and valuables.

It just seems to be there to make pretty explosions during fire fights. From a design perspective - in the game universe it just looks stupid.

I hear you...but we've seen much worse. games where people dodge gunfire by deflecting bullets with swords...people jumping off tall buildings and landing on their feet...people fighting through a game and never getting tired...etc. And how many bullets should you be able to take in a videogame before you die? :lol: Point is, almost all videogames have realisitic elements.

I'll be the first to say I haven't seen any Fallout 3 gameplay footage (don't know if any has been released), but it's Bethesda. They don't know how to fail. If they put it in, it must not be a huge deal.

And of course, if you OVERTHINK a game, you'll take the imagination and fun out of it.

Imagine if you went through Crysis...dismissing every element that is so obviously unrealistic...

[QUOTE="AzatiS"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.skrat_01

Kill hardcore gaming?? ....!!! Oo How youll do that m8? There are many millions hardcores gamers or even proffessional especially in europe - korea. How youll stop them ?

Buy expaning the mainstream just means you are going to attract more 'new' gamers, which will result in even more people becomming hardcore gamers eventually, which will increase the demmand for games with more depth.

Its like half the market wants to reverse engeneer the progressiveness of game design, only to result in making these basic designs complex again as the market shifts.

I don't know if it's that, in this case. Would creating another open universe game be a step backwards? I don't see that like turn-based JRPG gaming or something that's kind of old and stale. Open universe games were always pretty rare anyway. A nextGen game like that could have been cool, though it would have catered to a smaller audience than a game with more mainstream elements would ahve catered to.

Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.BioShockOwnz

DIE HIPPIE !!!

Fallout and F2 are two of my favorite RPGs of all time...and I am not a PC gamer at all. In fact, these are two games I still come back to play from time to time because I think they are still amazing.

But this idea that Fallout 3 is a betrayal of the series, or will ruin the series, is absolute Hermit fanboy garbage. Seriously fanboys. You really need to knock it off.

Fallout 3 may very well come out and be horrible. Although I think the devs should have LONG proven themselves to be good devs. But the fact is, whatever F3 ends up scoring, the arguements that this game isn't going to work on consoles, or will be ruined because it isn't top down, is ridiculous.

The hate against F3 that is coming from the hermit camp is bordering on a cultish hatred.

i just don't understand all the hate. if you dislike the direction of this one, the solution is easy. DON'T BUY IT. i liked the first 2, and i can't wait for this one.clone01

Imagine if Ubisoft took over for Metal Gear Solid 5 and mostly dumped the story elements (80% less CG).

Imagine if Rare took over for Halo 4 and added in 60 different weapons and UK voice acting.

Imagine if Volition (Saint's Row) took over Grand Theft Auto 5.

People would be up in arms.

Remember Shadowrun. Not to suggest Bethesda could ever screw up a game in the order of what happened to Shadowrun, but you get it. Big, unwanted changes frustrate.

Fallout and F2 are two of my favorite RPGs of all time...and I am not a PC gamer at all. In fact, these are two games I still come back to play from time to time because I think they are still amazing.

But this idea that Fallout 3 is a betrayal of the series, or will ruin the series, is absolute Hermit fanboy garbage. Seriously fanboys. You really need to knock it off.

Fallout 3 may very well come out and be horrible. Although I think the devs should have LONG proven themselves to be good devs. But the fact is, whatever F3 ends up scoring, the arguements that this game isn't going to work on consoles, or will be ruined because it isn't top down, is ridiculous.

The hate against F3 that is coming from the hermit camp is bordering on a cultish hatred.

ZIMdoom

No hermit has said it wont work on consoles ... the very fact that its an FPS with RPG elements prooves that it will easily cater to the consoles, however you wouldnt see the orginial Fallout Gameplay on consoles, and I believe thats a very good portion of the reason Bestheda picked it up in the first place ... FPS games sell well on consoles, an FPS-RPG like Oblivion would sell tons.

It shouldnt of been named Fallout 3 though, its like say if Halo 3 was announced instead of being an FPS its the RTS (Halo Wars) instead ... its like a kick in the balls.

Fallout and F2 are two of my favorite RPGs of all time...and I am not a PC gamer at all. In fact, these are two games I still come back to play from time to time because I think they are still amazing.But this idea that Fallout 3 is a betrayal of the series, or will ruin the series, is absolute Hermit fanboy garbage. Seriously fanboys. You really need to knock it off. Fallout 3 may very well come out and be horrible. Although I think the devs should have LONG proven themselves to be good devs. But the fact is, whatever F3 ends up scoring, the arguements that this game isn't going to work on consoles, or will be ruined because it isn't top down, is ridiculous. The hate against F3 that is coming from the hermit camp is bordering on a cultish hatred. ZIMdoom

I have a question: If they had named this game "Fallout Chronicles" or something that doesn't immediately invoke thoughts of a true and sequential sequel, would you guys be so pissed?Dreams-Visions

I have a question: If they had named this game "Fallout Chronicles" or something that doesn't immediately invoke thoughts of a true and sequential sequel, would you guys be so pissed?Dreams-Visions

i think that's a good point. i don't think there was as much of a flap about Brotherhood of Steel.

I think alot of people in this thread are missing the point altogether.

You see, I am a big fan of alot of Bethesda's work (Morrowind is one of my favorite games of all time), and I'm sure that they will be able to make Fallout 3 a good game.

But that's just the problem here: Fallout 1 and 2 were not just "good games"; they were ****ing incredible games, so even if Bethesda manages to make a good game out of Fallout 3, it will still be a major dissapointment.

And yeah, alot of what I've seen indicates that Bethesda really isn't thinking too hard about some of their design choices. I mean, exploding nuclear cars? Mindless mutants/ghouls that can't talk or reason? Nuke proof telephone booths? What the hell?

Now look I'm not saying F3 will suck, in fact, I'm cautiously optimistic, and I certainly hope that F3 will be a good game that does Fallout 1 and 2 justice, but as it stands, it looks like Bethesda is designing with spectacle in mind rather than substance (Megaton, for example). And so, whilst I can't say that I share his fervor (liking Fallout 3 = evil? :? ), I have to agree with Subrosian's general view on this matter.

Fallout and F2 are two of my favorite RPGs of all time...and I am not a PC gamer at all. In fact, these are two games I still come back to play from time to time because I think they are still amazing.

But this idea that Fallout 3 is a betrayal of the series, or will ruin the series, is absolute Hermit fanboy garbage. Seriously fanboys. You really need to knock it off.

Fallout 3 may very well come out and be horrible. Although I think the devs should have LONG proven themselves to be good devs. But the fact is, whatever F3 ends up scoring, the arguements that this game isn't going to work on consoles, or will be ruined because it isn't top down, is ridiculous.

The hate against F3 that is coming from the hermit camp is bordering on a cultish hatred.

ZIMdoom

Reading the thread helps.. alot..

i just don't understand all the hate. if you dislike the direction of this one, the solution is easy. DON'T BUY IT. i liked the first 2, and i can't wait for this one.clone01

if you liked the first 2 then u shud be worried.

[QUOTE="Ibacai"][QUOTE="TheSystemLord1"]Eh, we've heard it before 1,000 times...Fallout 3 is a disgrace, Bethesda is the devil. Listen. They gave me Morrowind. Until they produce 5 games inferior to Morrowind (Oblivion is number 1) then I can start hating them. Until that happens...Fallout 3 ftw + Day 1 purchase.Dreams-Visions

Sub clearly states.... "Bethesda's not a bad studio, they're not bad people, they don't intend to make Fallout 3 into a bad game" He doesn't agree with what they are doing but that doesn't mean he thinks they are evil themselves. People will look on this as just a "bashing Bethesda" thread as TheSystemLord1 did when it's actually not about Bethesda themselves but about what they are doing. And yes, you can argue that we are defined by our actions but one can not make up a whole.Ibacai

Yes he did say that. But then he also said that the game had been bastardised, that hyping fallout 3 is, literally, "evil", compared Bethesda to developers of Digimon and Killzone, and closed with refering to them as a developer he "hates".

To say there's no bethesda-bashing here is just silly.

[QUOTE="Ibacai"] Sub clearly states.... "Bethesda's not a bad studio, they're not bad people, they don't intend to make Fallout 3 into a bad game" He doesn't agree with what they are doing but that doesn't mean he thinks they are evil themselves. People will look on this as just a "bashing Bethesda" thread as TheSystemLord1 did when it's actually not about Bethesda themselves but about what they are doing. And yes, you can argue that we are defined by our actions but one can not make up a whole.Ninja-Hippo

Yes he did say that. But then he also said that the game had been bastardised, that hyping fallout 3 is, literally, "evil", compared Bethesda to developers of Digimon and Killzone, and closed with refering to them as a developer he "hates".

To say there's no bethesda-bashing here is just silly.

Huh... I really don't think you read the OP. He said if you like halo/pokemon and the devs that made KZ/digimon got rights to those games(halo/pokemon) and made it like KZ/digimon would you appreciate that? Or would you be upset.

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Dreams-Visions

Interesting post, sub. But the commercialization of hardcore games is inevitable. Especially when the original developer goes belly-up and someone else comes in to take their place.

Think Shadowrun.

If you don't want to play it, just skip the title. For others, it'll be a glimpse into a new world...for old players, it'll be a taste of what they've missed.

But not buying the game won't speed along the creation of a "true" Fallout game. Not buying will only mean financial losses for Bethesda and a community of developers that will say, "that universe is dead...we better not put any of our money into that mess". There's nothing to win here. Only "loose" or "loose everything", IMO.

Take your pick. Since I've never played Fallout, that's more of a choice for people like yourself to make.

Yes, Unfortunatly this is the reality, all I can hope for is they dont make the same mistakes they made with Oblivion, scaled leveling and relentlessly rehashed areas.

Scaled Leveling will crush it for me, I'l have to wait for a total conversion AGAIN. I hope thier level system is experiance based aswell, Ive never ever liked Elder Scrolls leveling system.

I fully expect the same "mistakes" (if that's what you want to call them)...primarially because...those decisions helped make their Oblivion game AAA and GoTY in many places. It's hard to convince a developer a decision was bad when it results in AAA status.

I don't expect an Oblivion clone with a Fallout skin or something...but I wouldn't be suprised if many of the same programming concepts remained. As they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...and they'd probably say that wasn't broken (even if it was the biggest flaw).

Scaled levelling is sort of out, areas have a level range and once you enter an area it gets locked down. They described it as say a level 1 character enters area X for the first time which has a minimum level of 5 that area gets locked as a level 5 area from that point on, if a character doesn't enter that area till he is level 15 then it gets locked at say level 8 (depends on the min and max levels for an area). It sounds like a step up from Oblivions scaling system imo, at least there will be dangerous areas and also the ability to come back to a difficlut spot when you can more handle it. Depending on how it is when it actually gets put into practice it could be quite a good system I think, especially for replay value what was easy for one play through might be more challenging or easier on a different one depending on how and where you go.

Leveling is XP based and uses basically the same system as previous games. On a whole I am looking forward to FO3 I just wish they had either stayed on the west coast or created some new stuff for the new setting rather than tranplanting the BOS over and reusing the super mutants as bad guys yet again.

Huh... I really don't think you read the OP. He said if you like halo/pokemon and the devs that made KZ/digimon got rights to those games(halo/pokemon) and made it like KZ/digimon would you appreciate that? Or would you be upset. jangojay

I did read the OP. And i said that was the ONLY thing i thought was a little off. I know exactly what he was saying so why you explained that to me is a mystery. He deliberatly chose developers of poor or generic games in making his point, eg Killzone and Digimon, thus comparing them to Bethesda, who do not make poor and generic games but generally very good games indeed. What is so wrong about that?

And please, stop accusing everybody who says anything against this thread as having not read the OP. I know it's not just you but it's getting old. :?

[QUOTE="jangojay"]Huh... I really don't think you read the OP. He said if you like halo/pokemon and the devs that made KZ/digimon got rights to those games(halo/pokemon) and made it like KZ/digimon would you appreciate that? Or would you be upset. Ninja-Hippo

I did read the OP. And i said that was the ONLY thing i thought was a little off. He know exactly what he was saying so why you explained that to me is a mystery. He deliberatly chose developers of poor or generic games eg Killzone and Digimon, thus comparing them to Bethesda, who do not make poor and generic games but generally very good games indeed. What is so wrong about that?

And please, stop accusing everybody who says anything against this thread as having not read the OP. I know it's not just you but it's getting old. :?

I thought he was more so comparing games that are directly rivaled each other....... since you know digimon was pokemon's rival and KZ was supposed to be halo's........I think you are over thinking that section of his post.

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]Fallout and F2 are two of my favorite RPGs of all time...and I am not a PC gamer at all. In fact, these are two games I still come back to play from time to time because I think they are still amazing.But this idea that Fallout 3 is a betrayal of the series, or will ruin the series, is absolute Hermit fanboy garbage. Seriously fanboys. You really need to knock it off. Fallout 3 may very well come out and be horrible. Although I think the devs should have LONG proven themselves to be good devs. But the fact is, whatever F3 ends up scoring, the arguements that this game isn't going to work on consoles, or will be ruined because it isn't top down, is ridiculous. The hate against F3 that is coming from the hermit camp is bordering on a cultish hatred. Vandalvideo

I understand perfectly well. I think people are just hiding behind the "fallout fan" label in hopes it will shield them. Because, speaking as a fallout Afan myself....someone who has beaten the previous fallout games more than once and STIL plays them...this hatred and whining is ridiculous. It's BS and completely illogical.

And let's be perfectly honest here. The company who started fallout collapsed. THey're done. And I fail to see how someone calling themsleves a "fan" of something would rather see it dead and gone, and dwell in nostalgia, than to see a GOOD company try to bring it back.

I look forward to Fallout 3 BECAUSE I am a Fallout fan. I guess that is the difference between a fan and a fanboy. One is willing to keep an open mind.

The problem with Fallout 3 isn't the gameplay, or the story, or the design (at least not in and of themselves), but rather that Bethesda is (apparently) trying to convince longtime Fallout fans that Fallout 3 is a "true" Fallout game. And as a result they're essentially insulting our (ie Fallout fans) intelligence. Rather than coming out and saying "we're changing up the Fallout formula to make it more "accessible" but hey, give us the benefit of the doubt," Bethesda comes across as saying "it's a true Fallout game, only with more action, more explosions and more gore!" despite the fact they're ****ting all over the "c.lassic" Fallout canon and gameplay.

For example we can look at what Bioware has done with Mass Effect. A good games in its own rights but much like Fallout 3, Mass Effect was a radical departure from what we expected. The difference is that Bioware admitted they were going to do something different, and as a result we (or at least I) gave them the benefit of the doubt. I didn`t play Mass Effect expecting it to be Baldur`s Gate 3, but because of the way Fallout 3 is portrayed in the media I am going to play it expecting a "true" Fallout sequel. Rather than ****ting in our toaster and calling it a pop-tart, Bioware said they were going to make radical changes to what we expect in an RPG, and Bethesda should do the same.