Witcher 2 sells 1.1 million copies in 7 months.

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]

Demon's Souls and catherine sold poorly compared to Witcher 2, bayonetta had an utter crapload of advertising.

JLF1MarkII

[QUOTE="BlowMonkeys"]

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Funny, last year Gran Turismo 5 sold as much as The Witcher 2 did and it was released in 2010.

waltefmoney

And who says the Witcher 2 won't sell as much as GT5 next year or even more?

No one, but that's not really the point :|

No, and way to go to compare the sales of a world famous racer with tons of advertising to a hardcore RPG with a niche market. I really see the logic there. Keep going son.

No, and way to go to compare the sales of a world famous racer with tons of advertising to a hardcore RPG with a niche market. I really see the logic there. Keep going son.

BlowMonkeys

GT5 is a racing sim, that's pretty niche. And I was just pointing out how your argument about console games not selling over time is flawed.

[QUOTE="BlowMonkeys"]

No, and way to go to compare the sales of a world famous racer with tons of advertising to a hardcore RPG with a niche market. I really see the logic there. Keep going son.

waltefmoney

GT5 is a racing sim, that's pretty niche. And I was just pointing out how your argument about console games not selling over time is flawed.

GT5 is not niche at all. It's one of the most well known racers in the world.

People that don't know about The Witcher, probably know about Gran Turismo.

[QUOTE="BlowMonkeys"]

No, and way to go to compare the sales of a world famous racer with tons of advertising to a hardcore RPG with a niche market. I really see the logic there. Keep going son.

waltefmoney

GT5 is a racing sim, that's pretty niche. And I was just pointing out how your argument about console games not selling over time is flawed.

The racing market is a lot larger than the hardcore RPG market. Not to mention GT5 is the most known racer, not counting Mario Kart.

And well...they don't. They do sell via used games, which is why publishers feel threatened by them. That, and they're just flat-out greedy.

GT5 is not niche at all. It's one of the most well known racers in the world.DragonfireXZ95

The genre is niche which is what I said. :| Jeeze you guys will latch on to every little thing.

And well...they don't. They do sell via used games, which is why publishers feel threatened by them. That, and they're just flat-out greedy.

ChubbyGuy40

You know I keep reading this and I see no examples, just hermits making this same statement over and over and then asking the other party to provide the proof.

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"]GT5 is not niche at all. It's one of the most well known racers in the world.waltefmoney

The genre is niche which is what I said. :| Jeeze you guys will latch on to every little thing.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

And well...they don't. They do sell via used games, which is why publishers feel threatened by them. That, and they're just flat-out greedy.

waltefmoney

You know I keep reading this and I see no examples, just hermits making this same statement over and over and then asking the other party to provide the proof.

You know I keep reading this and I see no examples, just hermits making this same statement over and over and then asking the other party to provide the proof.

waltefmoney

Outside of Nintendo and CoD games, they don't have legs after their initial launch. PC games do, because they drop in price or are part of a big sale. You won't even hear about console games after launch, but you'll certainly hear Deus Ex: Human Revolution on sale for $15.

What would you notice more? A game in the bargin bin that you never look in, or Steam/Origin/website with an ad that says "Crysis and Crysis Warhead is on sale for $5!"

Well you can look at all the developers complaining about used sales, or even better, you can use common sense.ferret-gamer

Developers complaining about used sales =/= console games not selling over time. A lot of console games don't have legs, but then again the same can be said about a lot of PC games.

Outside of Nintendo and CoD games, they don't have legs after their initial launch. PC games do, because they drop in price or are part of a big sale.

What would you notice more? A game in the bargin bin that you never look in, or Steam/Origin/website with an ad that says "Crysis and Crysis Warhead is on sale for $5!"

ChubbyGuy40

I would look at the bargain bins if I could find any :(

[QUOTE="BlowMonkeys"]

No, and way to go to compare the sales of a world famous racer with tons of advertising to a hardcore RPG with a niche market. I really see the logic there. Keep going son.

waltefmoney

GT5 is a racing sim, that's pretty niche. And I was just pointing out how your argument about console games not selling over time is flawed.

This, is a racing sim. Maybe you should look up the definition of SIMULATOR in the dictionary.

This.... is not

Demon souls has also been out for a quite a while longer than tw2 has. Having similar sales with a nearly 2 year head start isn't exactly selling as well. And are you kidding with bayonetta? Having a few banners on websites is not the same as having TV ads every other commercial break.

ferret-gamer

I don't remember a single Bayonetta TV ad. It did not have a huge marketing budget.

You can easily take Heavy Rain or No More Heroes instead.

This, is a racing sim. Maybe you should look up the definition of SIMULATOR in the dictionary.

BlowMonkeys

Developers complaining about used sales =/= console games not selling over time.

A lot of console games don't have legs, but then again the same can be said about a lot of PC games.

waltefmoney

They can be linked. Why would they complain about used games in the first place? Most likely because they aren't selling. You don't see that on PC anymore, because of digital sales.

Demon's souls is still very impressive. I mean if you really want to compare games in the same genre then both TW2 and DS are utter pathetic compared to the 10mil Skyrim sold.

I don't remember a single Bayonetta TV ad. It did not have a huge marketing budget

JLF1MarkII

It did have a big amount of hype behind it. They failed with the sales though, as they didn't produce enough. Skyrim had ads everywhere, and those drones will buy anything Bethesda s**ts out.

You don't? I'm damn sure I saw them right after christmas. Didn't see a single Darksiders ad though.

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Developers complaining about used sales =/= console games not selling over time.

A lot of console games don't have legs, but then again the same can be said about a lot of PC games.

ChubbyGuy40

They can be linked. Why would they complain about used games in the first place? Most likely because they aren't selling. You don't see that on PC anymore, because of digital sales.

But they could be complaining because their game didn't sell at all, I've never seen any developer complain about used games sales saying "well the game did really well at first but then all of a sudden it stopped selling."

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"]Well you can look at all the developers complaining about used sales, or even better, you can use common sense.waltefmoney

Developers complaining about used sales =/= console games not selling over time. A lot of console games don't have legs, but then again the same can be said about a lot of PC games.

Console sales are all about the short term, the used games market have killed the longevity of console game by a huge factor. PC games always have a longer shelf live, especially thanks to dd. If I feel nostalgic for a game I used to play I can dd it in an hour for a few quid.

Console sales are all about the short term, the used games market have killed the longevity of console game by a huge factor. PC games always have a longer shelf live, especially thanks to dd. If I feel nostalgic for a game I used to play I can dd it in an hour for a few quid.

tenaka2

Well a lot of console games release at DD nowadays, some very close to the release date.

The racing market is a lot larger than the hardcore RPG market. Not to mention GT5 is the most known racer, not counting Mario Kart.

And well...they don't. They do sell via used games, which is why publishers feel threatened by them. That, and they're just flat-out greedy.

ChubbyGuy40

Well a lot of console games release at DD nowadays, some very close to the release date.

waltefmoney

Who actually buys console games over DD? The hard drives are so small that you can barely hold any. Not to mention they're usually more expensive than what you can find them on Amazon. Their digital service doesn't compare to PC's.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Huh? Even on consoles passing 1mln copies is a good news and passing 2mlns usually means making profit and there the budget are 5-10 times bigger than that.

waltefmoney

Not necesseraly. I don't think Crackdown's budget was that big and it sold more than one million, yet MS hesitated to greenlight a sequel.

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

Console sales are all about the short term, the used games market have killed the longevity of console game by a huge factor. PC games always have a longer shelf live, especially thanks to dd. If I feel nostalgic for a game I used to play I can dd it in an hour for a few quid.

tenaka2

good for them. hopefully they can sell another million copies this year.

Actually console games do sell over time. Otherwise Mario Kart: Wii wouldn't be in the top 20 every year. Most don't, but that is also the case for PC games. Some have legs some don't. Initial sales flops like Valkyria Chronicles and Muramasa have gone on to be very successful over the years. Hell, look at Rayman: Origins, it barely sold anything in it's first month and is currently gaining momentum.

There is a reason why publishers still print copies after the first months, they sell. Not millions upon millions but neither does old-school PC games on gog.com.

JLF1MarkII

Read down a bit further to see what I wrote after.

Outside of Nintendo and CoD games, they don't have legs after their initial launch. PC games do, because they drop in price or are part of a big sale. You won't even hear about console games after launch, but you'll certainly hear Deus Ex: Human Revolution on sale for $15 on Steam.

What would you notice more? A game in the bargin bin that you never look in, or Steam/Origin/website with an ad that says "Crysis and Crysis Warhead is on sale for $5!"

ChubbyGuy40

They also print new copies to include new content to replace the old. Most games you'll find the in bargain bin, but they're ones you've never even heard of or weren't all that great. Others will stay on shelves at a high price because they refuse to lower it.

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Well a lot of console games release at DD nowadays, some very close to the release date.

ChubbyGuy40

Who actually buys console games over DD? The hard drives are so small that you can barely hold any. Not to mention they're usually more expensive than what you can find them on Amazon. Their digital service doesn't compare to PC's.

Shadow Complex did over 200k at launch and it's not even in the top 12 best selling XBLA games.

Actually console games do sell over time. Otherwise Mario Kart: Wii wouldn't be in the top 20 every year. Most don't, but that is also the case for PC games. Some have legs some don't. Initial sales flops like Valkyria Chronicles and Muramasa have gone on to be very successful over the years. Hell, look at Rayman: Origins, it barely sold anything in it's first month and is currently gaining momentum.

There is a reason why publishers still print copies after the first months, they sell. Not millions upon millions but neither does old-school PC games on gog.com.

JLF1MarkII

It's just the nature of the market. On PC you don't get huge marketing budgets, so games need time to spread based on worth of mouth. On consoles it's different. Also, used games sell severly cripple long time sales. After a month or two shops get filled with used copies, which makes games have to compete with legally avaible used copies.

Also, DD. Shops aren't big enough to carry everything. Games get taken of the shelfs, which doesn't happen with DD. And PC relies on DD far more than consoles do.

So while there are exceptions, the general rule is that pc games do have a lot longer legs than console ones do.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Well a lot of console games release at DD nowadays, some very close to the release date.

waltefmoney

Who actually buys console games over DD? The hard drives are so small that you can barely hold any. Not to mention they're usually more expensive than what you can find them on Amazon. Their digital service doesn't compare to PC's.

Shadow Complex did over 200k at launch and it's not even in the top 12 best selling XBLA games.

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

AdrianWerner

Not from what I saw retail wise. At DD maybe, but if The Witcher 2 had sold 1.1 million copies at retail, without having self-published in some regions according to that pie chart they would have made like 2 million which I wouldn't calle a ton of profit.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Well a lot of console games release at DD nowadays, some very close to the release date.

waltefmoney

Who actually buys console games over DD? The hard drives are so small that you can barely hold any. Not to mention they're usually more expensive than what you can find them on Amazon. Their digital service doesn't compare to PC's.

Shadow Complex did over 200k at launch and it's not even in the top 12 best selling XBLA games.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

waltefmoney

Not from what I saw retail wise. At DD maybe, but if The Witcher 2 had sold 1.1 million copies at retail, without having self-published in some regions according to that pie chart they would have made like 2 million which I wouldn't calle a ton of profit.

That's DD only game. Bad example.

AdrianWerner

Well he did ask who buys DD games on consoles. There are also previously retail games like Crysis and some Cave games that were released exclusively as DD titles on consoles, I doubt they would do that if they were expecting poor results.

I don't think there ever was a company managed worse than Real-time Worlds, aside from maybe 3D Realms, so I doubt the budget wasn't huge. Plus it was UK studio. Wages alone would make the budgets higher. And that's not even taking into account the marketing budget (which on consoles often equals dev budget), while W2 did nothing.

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

AdrianWerner

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

waltefmoney

Not from what I saw retail wise. At DD maybe, but if The Witcher 2 had sold 1.1 million copies at retail, without having self-published in some regions according to that pie chart they would have made like 2 million which I wouldn't calle a ton of profit.

The pie chart source is OnLive.SaltyMeatballs

Your point?

That's because 90% of them are niche publishers that don't need more sales to be profitable. They are about the same size as Atlus, Xseed or NIS which are also devs that don't need 1mil in sales before they are profitable. JLF1MarkII

Of course. But on PC majority of devs and publishers are liek those, while they're quickly getting extinct on console market, with only few remaining companies left. Simply put PCgaming caters to small companies, console gaming caters to big ones.

Halo 4 selling one million would be a huge disaster but so would Diablo 3.

JLF1MarkII

It was an XBLA game so it's DD only. It sold 600k in it's life time (deserved more).

SaltyMeatballs

So what you're saying is that a DD only game is a bad example to use when responding to the question "Who buys DD games on consoles?" :?

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

waltefmoney

Not from what I saw retail wise. At DD maybe, but if The Witcher 2 had sold 1.1 million copies at retail, without having self-published in some regions according to that pie chart they would have made like 2 million which I wouldn't calle a ton of profit.

Not everyone takes the same amount either. There were also quite a few CEs to factor in as well, which is almost three copies of the game in price. If those were say, 10% of the sales, they made back their money on those alone.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Currently 1mln copies sold on PC brings ton of profit for devs aside from few MMO exepctions. On consoles those sales at most make you break even.

waltefmoney

Not from what I saw retail wise. At DD maybe, but if The Witcher 2 had sold 1.1 million copies at retail, without having self-published in some regions according to that pie chart they would have made like 2 million which I wouldn't calle a ton of profit.

They would have made 25 million if we had taken that chart into account, which would mean a 17 million dollar net profit if the game had an 8 million dollar budget.

Because we do 800,000 x $20 for retail sales + 300,000 x $30(averaging out sales and full retail price paid for DD) for DD sales = $25,000,000 -$ 8,000,000 budget = $17,000,000 profit.

Also, Chubbyguy has a good point. The collector's editions sold out, and I even bought one myself along with a Steam copy and those aren't included in the math I just did.

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"]

It was an XBLA game so it's DD only. It sold 600k in it's life time (deserved more).

waltefmoney

So what you're saying is that a DD only game is a bad example to use when responding to the question "Who buys DD games on consoles?" :?

I was talking about games that are retail and DD, like say Alan Wake.

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"]

It was an XBLA game so it's DD only. It sold 600k in it's life time (deserved more).

waltefmoney

So what you're saying is that a DD only game is a bad example to use when responding to the question "Who buys DD games on consoles?" :?

They would have made 25 million if we had taken that chart into account, which would mean a 17 million dollar net profit if the game had an 8 million dollar budget.

Because we do 800,000 x $20 for retail sales + 300,000 x $30(averaging out sales and full retail price paid for DD) for DD sales = $25,000,000 -$ 8,000,000 budget = $17,000,000 profit.

Also, Chubbyguy has a good point. The collector's editions sold out, and I even bought one myself along with a Steam copy and those aren't included in the math I just did.

DragonfireXZ95

According to that chart they made $15 per copy, and did you miss the part where I said "from retail alone?" Not to mention we have no idea what kind of fees come into play with digital distribution, we don't have a chart for that.

I'm not saying that a console game having legs is the norm. They do happen though, especially with niche games. Examples of this are games like Demon's souls, Catherine, Dead Space (not niche), Muramasa, Rayman: Origins, Heavy Rain and Valkyria Chronicles.

Yes, because this thread is about game avaible for both retail and DD, so using DD-only game as an argument that's suppposed to suggest consoles can do just as well is misguided. We don't know how much it would sell if it would be avaible in both retail and DD.

AdrianWerner

When did I even imply that consoles do DD as well as PC?

Well he did ask who buys DD games on consoles. There are also previously retail games like Crysis and some Cave games that were released exclusively as DD titles on consoles, I doubt they would do that if they were expecting poor results.

waltefmoney

That Crysis port was a cash-in. I read that they hired a modder to do the ToD settings which is why it looks so damn bright, even at night, and it's blue everywhere. Bluesis is what we should call it. I think they released it over digital because they expected poor results and didn't have enough confidence to go retail with it.

I was talking about games that are retail and DD, like say Alan Wake.

ChubbyGuy40

Okay, sorry then.

For a game of its quality, those sales are pretty poor. PC gamers need to buy more games.

Sserv

When the f*ck did over 1 million copies become a bad thing?Ace6301

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"]

They would have made 25 million if we had taken that chart into account, which would mean a 17 million dollar net profit if the game had an 8 million dollar budget.

Because we do 800,000 x $20 for retail sales + 300,000 x $30(averaging out sales and full retail price paid for DD) for DD sales = $25,000,000 -$ 8,000,000 budget = $17,000,000 profit.

Also, Chubbyguy has a good point. The collector's editions sold out, and I even bought one myself along with a Steam copy and those aren't included in the math I just did.

waltefmoney

According to that chart they made $15 per copy, and did you miss the part where I said "from retail alone?" Not to mention we have no idea what kind of fees come into play with digital distribution, we don't have a chart for that.

They didn't make $15, because they published the game themselves in some regions. It would have been averaged out. Even going low as 20 is a benefit for you, it might even be higher.

There is no publisher fee and no platform royalty(because it's on PC).PC doesn't have a platform royalty. Also, not sure what returns is, is that game returns? If so, I doubt it's that high, maybe for console game averages.

Of course. But on PC majority of devs and publishers are liek those, while they're quickly getting extinct on console market, with only few remaining companies left. Simply put PCgaming caters to small companies, console gaming caters to big ones.

AdrianWerner