M or AO?

I like how "common sense" was applied to this matter. What a laugh that concept often ends up being.

They've only fought twice. In the first fight, Goku overpowered (thank to non-sensical powerup hax) Vegeta...so Vegeta hax'd up a Transformation to overopower Kakkorot....and it totally worked. Just as SS3 would have beaten SS2. Would you disagree with any of these points so far? Spirit bomb failed (weakened or not, Vegeta survived). Even after besting Goku, losing his tail and dealing with the punks who interfered...he was standing....all the way until Gohan landed on him (yet another bested foe). The whole 'tail growing back' thing was just dreadfully convenient.

In the second fight, only equal transformations took place and Vegeta had the slight edge in that regard. Goku had his rediculous Instant Transmission (which he jew'd for the rest of the series *HA!*) to make up for how bad he actually sucks (Final Flash would have floored that clown). SS3 was conveniently created later to add insult to injury as Vegeta quite clear had that fight in his favor...so now Goku looked like he could have been far stronger....but as an SS2...he was inferior. Base to base, Vegeta was just better. That fight ended in a tie...which Vegeta ended with a nice cheap shot to the fool's skull. KO

Vegeta is the one who ends up having to kill most of the fools. Piccolo chips in. Goku just gets to waste everyone's time with his bull****. Especially Spirit Bomb. Goku didn't kill Freiza (Vegeta's son did), he didn't kill Cell (Gohan did)...and Buu should never have survived the suicide blast....let alone had enzymes that could break apart an Potara fusion just so Goku would get the chance to be the hero while Gohan was killed off in a blast that he could have STOPPED. It's rigged. The series should certainly have ended with Gohan being the strongest. Goku's trash fans couldn't shut the hell up though. I'd rather the show have ended if it allowed the series to end on a good note. Never having tasted the greatness of the second battle...I'd have never known the desire for it really...so the loss of Buu Saga would have been acceptable. Fusion brought us Vegetto (good)...Gogeta (good/bad)....and Gotenks (bad). GT...

I like SS4. I understand that you don't feel them to be another level of "super saiyan" and you doubt how canonical they are and etc. Totally reasonable of you.

That doesn't mean they don't have a very cool design/concept/abilities. 

The point is, Goku kills most of the enemies. he let Gohan fight Cell, even though he could of. And Trunks, that barely counts. Ye, he killed him. But who's the one who actually fought him on Namek.

Goku kills most of the enemies. And yes, Vegta usually pitche in...

How about this, they're equal fighters.

The point is, Goku kills most of the enemies. he let Gohan fight Cell, even though he could of.

You mean did, he died.

And Trunks, that barely counts. Ye, he killed him. But who's the one who actually fought him on Namek.

So you're saying Trunks didn't fight him...?
Trunks putting an end to the guy seems like more or a feat than Goku's, don't forget that Metal Frieza is always depicted as more powerful than the original. Trunks seemed more powerful at that point, granted he's from the future.

Goku kills most of the enemies. And yes, Vegta usually pitche in...

Who kills the most enemies=best character?
You're looking at it from a purely "good guy" perspective. Vegeta probably killed more than Goku...just they weren't all villains. The guy destroyed planets...

How about this, they're equal fighters.

Meh, I'll leave this for the rest of the debating society.

Killzone333

I've already made it clear I see little point in these debates...but I can't let all of these outlandish statements fly.

KZ333: Starting with DBZ, Goku "killed" only Kid Buu (sort of) and Yakon. He had an assist with his brother (Raditz). He believed he had killed Freiza. We aren't including alternate universes, movies or GT in this. Dragonball Goku was like a different person IMO. He was totally willing to kill the bad guy..and I dig that. Veget and Picollo cleaned up the bulk of the messes I feel. Gohan got Perfect Cell. Trunks chipped in with Freiza (alternate Universe Cell and Android 17/18 not eligable here). I seriously cannot recall any other "kills" in all his years...SRSLY. To varify Vegeta's kills (not just slaughtering of innocents)...would take a bit of thought. Being the secondary character towards the end (above Gohan *HA!*)...he was not allowed to beat any of the villains. It's just not how these shows work you see. The main character gets to do nearly everything...or their line will mop up the rest. (Gohan beating Cell)

Goku had no chance as a SS against Perfect Cell. He would have run out of power before Cell. IF both had been given the sensu bean...it would have only have been worse for Goku at that point. Let's no delude ourselves about this chances at victory. Gohan was their only hope at that point...Cell allowed SS2...and in doing so...his own chance at being defeated.

Fighting on Namek isn't a difference maker. Mecha Freiza was stronger than his 100% power form without worry of weaking. Trunks just overpowered the fool in a hurry. Though the Goku that returned was stronger (of course). Then Vegeta went SS...and was stronger than Goku. Vegeta gets another power boost...yet Goku was the stronger one for the next occassion (rediculous). It just goes on and on..

~I wish Cell (form 1 for the lulz) would have stabbed and absorbed Goku....right in front of everyone. That would have been just....beautiful

mrSK: Goku killed Nappa, a lot of the Ginyu Force, could of killed Cell but let Gohan, and helped him do it too! Kid Buu, thought he killed Broly but he came back twice - not sure who killed him the 3rd time as Bio - Broly. I think he killed Slug, not sure. And he killed Cooler, that beast from the one movie with the elf guy with a sword, pretty much killed Freize but some reason he came back and Trunks killed him, and I believe that's it.

Now, how many has Vegeta killed? That's not counting fusions with Goku.

Kuro: That little cheap kill Cell did by exploding! Tch!

Goku and Vegeta both died a lot. I recall seeing halos over there heads many times.

Oh and one last thing: Goku actaully had guts to fight Broly. I recall Vegeta standing and saying " It's useless. He'll kill us all! He's the legendary super saiyan!" And Goku punched the muscle man in the gut and blew him up! But he came back, of course.

And I know what you guys are gonna' say, when Goku fought Broly his friends had to give him energy, but still. And the 2nd time, Goku came and helped his sons kill Broly again. I don't know who killed Bio - Broly, can someont tell me?

mrSK: Goku killed Nappa, a lot of the Ginyu Force, could of killed Cell but let Gohan, and helped him do it too!

BS.

Kid Buu, thought he killed Broly but he came back twice - not sure who killed him the 3rd time as Bio - Broly. I think he killed Slug, not sure. And he killed Cooler, that beast from the one movie with the elf guy with a sword, pretty much killed Freize but some reason he came back and Trunks killed him, and I believe that's it.

We're not counting movies, remember? Movie Goku is way cooler.  

Now, how many has Vegeta killed? That's not counting fusions with Goku.

Kuro: That little cheap kill Cell did by exploding! Tch!

Goku and Vegeta both died a lot. I recall seeing halos over there heads many times.

  *Their  

Oh and one last thing: Goku actaully had guts to fight Broly. I recall Vegeta standing and saying " It's useless. He'll kill us all! He's the legendary super saiyan!" And Goku punched the muscle man in the gut and blew him up! But he came back, of course.

Killzone333

mrSK: Goku killed Nappa, a lot of the Ginyu Force, could of killed Cell but let Gohan, and helped him do it too! Kid Buu, thought he killed Broly but he came back twice - not sure who killed him the 3rd time as Bio - Broly. I think he killed Slug, not sure. And he killed Cooler, that beast from the one movie with the elf guy with a sword, pretty much killed Freize but some reason he came back and Trunks killed him, and I believe that's it.

HA, that was Vegeta who killed Nappa, we're not counting movies, and it was Goten and Trunks.

Now, how many has Vegeta killed? That's not counting fusions with Goku.

Kuro: That little cheap kill Cell did by exploding! Tch!

Like Goku never pulled a cheap move out of his ***.

Goku and Vegeta both died a lot. I recall seeing halos over there heads many times.

Oh and one last thing: Goku actaully had guts to fight Broly. I recall Vegeta standing and saying " It's useless. He'll kill us all! He's the legendary super saiyan!" And Goku punched the muscle man in the gut and blew him up! But he came back, of course.

Don't get me started on the ending to that movie, it was total BS, Broly could, and should have killed them all.

And I know what you guys are gonna' say, when Goku fought Broly his friends had to give him energy, but still. And the 2nd time, Goku came and helped his sons kill Broly again. I don't know who killed Bio - Broly, can someont tell me?

Killzone333

Well, Goku weakened Nappa for the kill.

If series only, Goku has still killed the most.

We just showed that that's totally wrong...

In the series, I don't think Goku kills more than 1 person. 

KZ333: Okay...we'll allow flicks. (the real ones anyway). No DB..no DBGT.

---DBZ---

-Nappa was killed by Vegeta. At best an assist (like Raditz who was killed by Piccolo).

-Vegeta killed Guildo. Goku knocked out Recoome and Burter (Vegeta killed the two while defenseless). Jeice was slaughter by Vegeta. Ginyu was never killed.

-He nearly killed Freiza (Trunks got the kill *and King Cold*)

NOTE: You could possibly bring up the other reality where Goku would have had to do that...but we aren't going there

NOTE2: I won't be bringing up every little kill in the series...let alone those by Vegeta or Piccolo...seriously..they do the heavy lifting/trash pickup

-Gohan killed Cell. Vegeta distrated him. I don't believe Gohan had a chance without that window of oppertunity...and his father did force the little fool to act. So AT BEST another assist. (which Vegeta would also get along with the bulk of the other fighters present...)

-Goku killed Yakon. Lovely.

-Goku killed Kid Buu with everyone elses power....sort of. (reincarnation) We'll count it to be fair. *that's 2 in the series*

---FLICKS---

2. Goku gets the kill (everyone else's power)

3. Goku gets the kill (everyone else's power)

4. Goku gets the kill (everyone else's power)

5. Goku gets the kill (I'd like to count this one actually but he apparently lives on; great flick) *half-credit?*

6. Assist by Vegeta. Goku gets the final shot. *Kill? Sure we'll count it*

7. Goku gets the kill (everyone else's power + unnecessary hax)

8. No kill (everyone else's power + bull**** power increase)

9. Gohan gets the kill (this ghost crap got old..it's tagged on crap)

10. Gohan gets the kill (no assist for the silly presentation of ghost Goku)

11. Goten/Trunks kill Bio-Broly (terrible...just terrible)

12. Gogeta kills Janemba...*half-credit?*

13. Goku gets the kill (total unbuyable bull**** victory...SS3 isn't stronger than Mystic Gohan and "Dragon fist" is retarded)

---Back to the discussion---

Goku could NOT have killed Cell with his best shot....I doubt a Spirit Bomb would have been enough even IF he could get one out and land the hit. Nevermind Super Perfect....Perfect Cell had another depth of power in reserve despite tiring. After the bean it would have been a joke even if Goku took one too. What a laugh the idea of the clown besting perfection. His so called 'assistance' (talking) was noted above.

How many kills? Please...let us restrict that to JUST the manga (and what we've actually seen/are able to account for rather then approx)....easily more than the handful Kakkort has. Straight kill of even bad people...no contest. As for the big players (3)...none of them though he had the chance to kill 1...and as a fusion he and Goku COULD have slaughtered Buuhan but had a rescue mission to perform. Do you seriously believe we need to go into all the kills of Vegeta? Of all characters in the show? He has just killed....so many people...signficant..minor..and incidental. How could you even think of saying Goku has KILLED more? A hero of a show like this doesn't typically KILL in cold blood even with a truely evil person.

NOTE: I think we should discuss the two fights of Vegeta VS Goku. Your thoughts?

Vegeta was killed by Freiza and in another instance he suicided to try and kill Fat Buu (just rediculous that it cut the pink fool to ribbons rather then pulverised it into oblivion). Goku was killed while holding Raditz still. Was killed by Cell.

NOTE: If you're up to discussing techniques, miracles (plot devices), trainings, power-ups, transformations, pulling-things-out-of-ones-ass....we're all ears. Let us begin.

(Broly) That flick disgraced Vegeta no different than the rest. If we are to include those, Goku just looks like a naive fool and Vegeta plays the part of awestruck coward up until he returend to being the cocky fool. No one should have beaten Broly in that battle. The next victory was nonsense. IF Vegeta was there, he would have destroyed Broly (Toyed with the fool as well...why else would he NOT be in the fight at all? He can't sense power levels now?) The third should NEVER have happened. Goku's power was NOT his own...and it should NOT have been enough to close the gap let alone end the fight in a SINGLE BLOW. It was.....the least beliavable victory of the entire series. Period. Didn't even end the villains life.

"But still" nothing. Don't even bring up that crap in the second flick. He can't be proven to have actually helped or NOT helped. It can't be proven in either case due to the way the presented it. You can aruge it but not prove your view. Give it up. The stupid little boys got the final victory in another nonsense victory. God....I hate Goten and (present) Trunks...I sort of dislike (future) Trunks..but he has redeeming qualities at least. Those brats shouldn't have such power..and their fusion is rediculous. It should be disregarded entirely. The creator was heavily slipping by Buu Saga.

Lot 'o text.

So, others beside Goku kill most enemies, but Goku aminly does in the movies.

Goten and Trunks, kill the legendary super saiyan?! Riot! Riot!!

If Goku's not the strongest, why would he be the main character - in all the main fights?

I ask myself that question every day. 

Not every day, but every time I am reminded of DBZ. 

Kuro: Well played.

KZ333: Goku was the focus of the tale that inspired Dragonball..so naturally he was given all the aid needed to stay relevant in its 'sequel'. Fan clamor ruled the day with DBZ. Have you never looked into these things?

Why did you think the position of killing most people (even on-screen, DBZ only) could be won by Goku? If you include Saibamen as individuals/people (I wouldn't), Krillen trumps Goku in pure 'kills'. The lack of a proper response was expected. Goku need not be the strongest fight at 'base' even among the 'hero' side...so long as he has higher forms. Even with those he couldn't outclass Gohan...but being that Goku was the fan favorite...he got written back into the equation so he could be the deciding factor against Kid Buu *who didn't need to exist*. All for the japanese fanboys of Goku...we suffered Buu Saga as it turned out beyond the Fat Buu/Majin Vegeta fight. Very little of that saga was enjoyable...what little there was....nearly...very nearly enough to justify it. Sort of like how the Cell Saga didn't have to happen but it DID pass the torch along since he opted to continue the series (fans again). Androids weren't cutting it so we get Cell...and what a champ he was.

However, mercy is not a specialty of ours....so we shall continue as we were...unless....you could be persuaded out of being a casual in the GoW scene...if only to do a 'Very Hard' NUR. That's not asking a lot to be honest. You'll grow to love it. Trust us.

Kuro - Plot devices negated Mystic Gohan from achieving said level, pity, I wanted that form to quickly disappear. Would have probably appeared in GT, though we all know what happened to Gohan in that series.

MrSK – Agreed on the second part. I thought that Vegeta said the power was going to Goku's head, hence the cockiness. I'm rusty on this stuff.

I'd say that Goku at 3 would destroy any version of Buu that appeared, except for the one whose main power source was Mystic Gohan. Omega Shenron would be above/beat Vegetto at his highest (shown) form. Super 17 might pose a threat, though I'm not too sure on that. Bebi has no chance, probably not even when he'd enter the G.Oozaru state.

True, though I suppose it's because they're seen as humans for the most part. That and the fact that those who first watched it (Japanese audience) would likely consider the whole show rude.

I see. Should be good enough to read. Some of the useless trash is obviously not there. They stretched out the anime too much.

SS3 – If SSJ4 Gogeta isn't able to finish SSJ3 Vegetto before the ten minutes are up, it's a definite victory for Vegetto, though in a pure dog fight, I doubt Vegetto at SSJ3 would be able to overpower or hold his own. Even though Potara is superior, we don't really know by how much it is with respect to power levels. The huge difference between 3 & 4 is what makes me think that Vegetto wouldn't be able to overpower Gogeta.

A name for such a fusion would have been hilarious as well, I guess that's why he decided to fuse Vegeta & Goku instead.

Indeed. Retconning GT and instead introducing Gohan that was not crapped on would be great. Perhaps even as the protagonist.

True, though having Super Buu appear right after Fat Buu was destroyed (via Vegeta's explosion) would have been better. Granted, S.Buu's origin would have to be different. Turning people into candy, while hilarious & powerful/clever, was out of place.

What do Gogeta and Vegitto do with anything?

Listen, I understand everyone liking Vegeta because he's cooler. Except his tight blue suit from the buu saga was, well...someone feel free to elaborate. I think Vegeta is cooler too, except Goku's better.

Maybe it's because it takes Goku so :evil: long to get there. In the Vegeta Saga, Goku was dead a while. In the Frieza saga, he was in that stupid water chamber while Frieza was wasting everyone. In the cell Saga, he was training.

How about the most kills by a villain? Cell - in his 1st form he wiped out entire cities. Someone feel free to argue, but I'm right.

Were all of the namekians still on Namek when Frieza blew it up? If so she (FRIEZA IS A GIRL DAMMIT I DONT CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS) wins the prize. 

If not Cell or alternat universe Androids. 

Oh yeah, I forgot about her. All the nameks, and the saiyans.

Danget, I thought I had won one.

DP:

(Mystic Gohan) Indeed it was a plot device *poor one no less*.

(SS3 Goku) Fat Buu was weaker. Super Buu would be less than (slightly) or equal to SS3, but his resilience would lend a hand in whether SS3's power would be enough to KILL said foe or not. Kid Buu being stronger is just rediculous...with that considered...I wasn't really sold on Goku being enough to end this form either even if he hadn't been a retard about it. Though I'd just have to go along with it. Buu (with Picollo, Goten and Trunks) was apparently at a disadvantage though they didn't show SS3 Goku as stronger (possibly). Buutenks would have raped Goku having superior techniques (aside of course from the hax *instant transmission*) and SUPERIOR power. He was already stronger than Mystic Gohan..who is stronger than SS3 Goku...there would NOT have been a lot Kakkorot could do directly. Buuhan...well that's not in question.

(Omega) No reason not to think SS Vegetto would be weaker than Omega Shenron. Hard to say what SS2 and SS3 transformations would do to ths scales...its obvious what SS4 would do in this case. SS Vegetto would probably be weaker than Super 17. SS2 would due I'd have to imagine *if only keeping things close*. Babi is a chump. I can practically see the scoundral trying to take Vegetto's body (pre-Vegeta 'take-over') and that going about as well as Buuhan's 'infiltration'.. utter FAIL.

(Manga) I'll have to look for it...I'd expected it to be where I usually go but it was just Dragonball (twice)...

SS3 - True we don't know how this so called '10x better' (LOL WUT) rule truely plays out. Consider all the other 'statistics' we are tossed in the series and it doesn't add up very well. That 'rivalry' bit is just silly. SS3 (GT) Goku vs SS4 (GT) Goku of the same period...I'd like to compare their powers to see just how large the 'leap' actually is...nevermind SS3 Goku vs SS4 (GT) Goku...that's just silly to look at as Goku's base power altered drastically (convenient). Vegetto lacking a time limit is quite a big deal in a case where he's overpowered or the foe is nearly equal. It's hard to compare the two in any real sense to be honest. We've covered the power thing...but not techniques. They don't even fight alike. The 'cross' just 'birthed' a different warrior altogether *curious*.

(Dubs) There exists such things..dubbed by fans to my knowledge.

(Retcon) A muligan of the Buu Saga itself wouldn't be out of the question...we didn't need Goku and Vegeta as SS2..or even to be the strongest fighters around...to enjoy their fight.

(Buu's destruction) Fat Buu should have just stayed dead. A short saga. Or instead have never been....Super Buu would have been a fine place to start. The magic beam was overpowered and stupid. He could beat practically anyone with it. Vegetto retaining life/abilities in that form was SUPER REDICULOUS (though lulzy)...magic had no place in the series. Dabura's spit was like a bad omen of **** to come for us.

Kuro: There weren't a lot of Namek's to begin with....and his 'help' killed the bulk of the populace. We SAW Vegeta kill a village. Freiza was seen (anime) killing at least 3. All Namek's killed by Freiza's forces (Vegeta didn't count so they stayed dead *HA!*) were resurrected and taken to Earth before the planet blew...so no kills to credit even to the "Death Ball". Vegeta wins there too. With off-screen kills (and filler) considered...it's hard to say. Cell diffinately has a leg-up with all the absorbtions he does...we should probably think of the various timelines as totally seperate or we just get a mess. Unless said character of a specific timeline travels outside their own...we aren't going there. (Ex: Trunks) The AU Androids certainly had a lot of kills in that regard. Our Androids however...didn't really do anything that bad. Cell was the one with souls shooting out of his power-ups, devouring people, swallowing the androids (cyborgs) whole, killing left and right while looking fabulous, etc. Vegeta was TAME in the Cell Saga (including Androids). Only really destroying Android 19.

KZ333:

(Cooler) Can't argue there. His character developes....and everything. *HUUUUUUURRRRRR*

(Better) Funny choice of word. You perhaps don't fully respect all the things it can mean here though...

(Goku) In the entire Saiyan Saga, Goku was alive for perhaps 1/4th of it (with filler) and killed no one. As a "hero", innocents are allowed for 'stat padding'....and there were only really 3 foes he could take on. The Saibamen are questionable (plus they were already dead) life forms but so were the true Androids (not speaking about C17 and C18 ). Synthetic life...by extension you can question the likes of Cell (to a degree) and Buu. It gets tricky.

Concerning Namek, Goku was resting up...then slowly training across the galaxy...then dealt with the Ginyu's before getting dealt with *HAR HAR HAR*...and spent about half of the time Freiza was fighting....in recovery (again). Netting no kills with only about a half dozen chances (including Vegeta who was clearly NOT on Goku's side).

During Cell Saga, he was busy suffering in bed, then training...before fighting Cell (uselss)..before giving the reigns to Gohan. No kills. He spends a pretty large portion of these sagas OUT of the action...

During Buu Saga, he was dead/KO'd/fusion'd...for about half of the saga. Killed Yakon. Sort of killed Kid Buu (a questionable life form) with the power of everybody else (pushing it with his own).

(Villains) Hard to say. Off-screen? Filler? History? Timelines? Resurrections *best left unconsidered though repeat kills of people are also questionable* It could get hard to say with all that. Vegeta was once a villain. Shall we consider the Vegeta of that point...all points when he was (being) evil....or perhaps just Vegeta in general? Fat Buu and the other Buus (save perhaps his absorbtion transformations) are practically different beings altogether. Cell did ALOT of his killing off-screen, but still found time to show off for us. If JUST the confirmable kills are to be considered...Cell couldn't be beaten. Super Buu had that genocide attack that infers what the name suggests...and Kid Buu blew up the Earth...it's really hard to say as such because when you leave the bulk of the kills to estimation versus counting...well...it's just silly to bother typically.

By that point, he likely hated his fans.

~This is my theory. Thus he screwed us all

Correct!

I forgot about Buu. Disgusting, pink, globby...why would they even come up with that?! Killzone333

...

Why is there a scroll bar on this post? 

Who knows? Things happen we cannot control.

Is the "or" truely necessary?

noted.

Howsabowsa Mouth or Anal and Oral?

(*moaaaaaaaaaaannnn*)

That was a good one!

I just looked out the window. The sky is purple. The clouds are red. My cat is barking.

"Get to the caves! Get to the caves, NOW!!!"

Kuro: Indeed. That video game with the super long cutscenes is sort of the 'real' 14, but it was ASS too. The 'specials' get a designation outside the numerical approach that's otherwise standard.

~Being that it was NOT a theatrical release like those that we typically count...it really doesn't deserve that classification (as the 14th). Just crap shat out for an anime conference the way I hear it. What. A. Waste.

Indeed.

Your thoughts on the "Specials"? I personally think they are both just as good as any of the movies (both meaning Bardock and Trunks, dont' know if there are others). Better than some of the movies even- they're both excellent, and you know I love unhappy endings. 

Kuro: Could be.

The specials (aside from this latest travesty) have been better than the actual flicks. The future Trunks tale was amusing. The story of Bardock was pretty great though giving the viewer reason to feel a burning desire for vengeance (in relation to the main character) only to have him trashed in battle, ignored by those he tries to warn/save and see his world utterly ruined..the real issue is that when you want one to have their vengeance and the jack off gets away, it's not terribly satisfying. (see: Berserk anime) Typically I link watching villains crushing the heroes..but one who isn't a pure hero I can identify with as an actual character/person rather than an (retarded) ideal. *Goku*

~It's all very complicated