@Xylymphydyte: I agree in all about incompetence and the greed that casualize every game to be the Candy Crush of their genre, but at that plague we can't ignore the consolization factor too.
Some games was designed to PC like Divinity Original Sin, or Dragon Age Origins, then ported (and receiving multiple complains from console community that simply CAN'T handle such complexity). But we know perfectly well when a game has been compromised for the console version, Dragon Age 2 clearly is an ARPG based on combo-pad combats, instead the tactical-camera RPG from Origins.
For Diablo 3 we not only have the information about the hire of a PS3 engineer during development, also we know that after that, they started to simplified/infantilized/removed complete features as the skill tree. In therms of graphics there was earthquakes across the community denouncing the 'rainbowization' of the new screenshots, you can see the popular Diablo 3 rainbow logo from the community, also the secret pony level is a parody of all the community complains, the worst is the phrase "even my grandma will know how to play this game".
Yes, Jay Wilson has a lot of incompetence here, but we can't deny that the console version has only made it worse.
@Xylymphydyte: Civilization is on consoles? (multiple questions assault my mind but mainly two: first is "why???", why someone in this World would bother trough uncountable and uncomfortable pad menus to play a game when with mouse would be a luxury, and second is "how???", how still existing such people? xD). Anyway, Morrowind was decent, but Oblivion, Fallout 3, 4, and Skyrim continue a spiral of casualization for pads, only mods save those games. The same with Dragon Age Origins, then 2 and Inquisition converted in action pad games, Crysis, get in consoles converted in a "corridor of surprises", thank you.
Look, it's ok if some fanatic want to play Wasteland 2 on consoles, financing my free upgrade, is their problem when the game was designed for PC. My problem starts when games are designed for pad to avoid the problems to port from a superior platform to inferior ones, like Diablo 3, which we can smell console limitations in each pixel.
@Xylymphydyte: In your first paragraph you describes why Diablo 3 (and most games), get casualized, and I agree with all what you've said. I've mentioned consoles because is evident the console limitations in graphics, non randomized areas, most area spells (not targeting ones), etc, even removal of skill tree and stats surely are related to the console player base that is casual by default. In addition, consoles are another reason to casualize games, Dragon Age 2 is the king of examples of the influence of consoles in multiplatform games, leaving the tactical combat to an action-combo based stupid fighting game...
About sales, I agree too in that ARPGs are a specific genre, worse is for RPGs a la Pillars of Eternity, but, here is were we must agree if we are well thinkers: Specific genres always had a reduced market, if enterprises want to sell to casuals, well, they always can make a new franchise instead destroy other. Blizzard is the example of how successful can be new franchises (Overwatch, Heartstone, Heros of the Storm...). Blizzard didn't needed to destroy Diablo, transforming it in the parody of its former glory.
PS: I'm suscribed in those 2 reddits too, I still playing Diablo 3 time to time, like I play the Tetris time to time, the difference is that Diablo is not more the center of the ARPG universe as in the past, is the opposite, a game for kids that you play when you have little time and don't want to complicate with real games.
@Xylymphydyte: sites can name ARPG at any thing that has level progression, reality is that you, Diablo 3 fans, are satisfied with the minimal expression of what ARPG means.
How can you say that ARPG is dead while there are more successful ARPGs like Path of Exile, and others (not enough "marketined"), as Grim Dawn, well selling?
Do you know? The irony, is that Diablo 3 fans want to still naming it ARPG, while in fact are happy with all the RPG mechanics removed. Tell me, how do you call that?
@swagtile: I've searched a build in the official page, but, did you noticed that, excluding paragon section, all your build is about gear? In any PoE builds the same gearing system is in one single section (Search any), having also, all the passives, bandits and ascendancy.
Of course you have "flexibility", you have all damned builds in one single character, that is the maximum expression of "flexibility", exactly the opposite of a build.
Diablo 2 never leaded RPG (that was Baldur's Gate, Fallout, etc), but A-RPG (action rpg), at the point that Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege, Sacred were called "diablo like". Today the sentence "diablo like" is laughable for Path of Exile, Grim Dawn or Torchlight.
Yes, you are satisfied with the minimal expression of RPG, as you said: "if it has level progression is RPG", ok then...
Evolution is in a genre. Grim Dawn is the perfect evolution of Titan Quest, it's not necessary to change KEY features to evolve, is so difficult to understand?
Lastly, "good game design", well... Mario Bros has good game design and doesn't says nothing to me, I want to play a Diablo-Like when I play Diablo 3, instead, I have the minimal expression of ARPG in a cartoonish, casual system for consoles. Understood?
@Warlord_Irochi: what a console users says? "you plug and play without complications", the whole console philosophy is for casual players. Sorry for the truth.
@Warlord_Irochi:I've been following its development, they've hired a PS3 engineer, then they've removed the skill tree (there still some screenshots from devs https://cdn.tutsplus.com/gamedev/authors/jeff-berry/D3.jpg, enjoy them). And the rest is deduction: smaller not random areas, casualized, graphics from cellphone... etc.
The drop rate in consoles is because its offline mode, in PC it was designed around the RMAH, that was removed, RoS is a patch, so few and so late, you can't expect that a game can be saved after remove its crucial feature. Right?
@Warlord_Irochi:Realism... also darkness, etc... it would be extremely easy to compare a Diablo 3 inventory with Path of Exile inventory to notice that you have icons from a cellphone... but compare it with its (supposed) predecessor: Diablo 2 inventory... Now, that is not debatable, is a fact that Diablo 3 gets simplified even regard its "predecessor".
About casuals, is natural to be casual in most games, and hardcore in few that you really like. The problem is that casuals has a lot of casual games to enjoy while there are really few hardcore games. A casual saga is OK, the problem is when a saga that wasn't casual, turns casual, and people celebrate that saying "Diablo 2 was a mess but in Diablo 3 you can switch skills every time, it's better to play straight forward!". Understand?
About Fallout 3, it's a waste of talent to play it vanilla, I play it modded, try FWE + MMM + Fellout to start, and tell me if you survive, it's more challenging than DOOM.
@swagtile: yes, D3 tried to add some customization with hyper-elaborated-mega-systems to do things that could be easily solved by adding simple stats. But, you can respect paragon at any moment so... understood?
¿There are more builds? Why you still naming "build" to something that you don't need to "build"? you can change each single aspect of your character at any moment, that are not builds, are "spell strategies".
Class and skills (spells), are not RPG mechanics, the only thing is level progression. The problem is that you, Diablo 3 fans, are satisfied with the minimalist expression of RPG meaning, while Diablo 2 used to be the leader of ARPGs, and in some way still leading.
And you still comparing Diablo 3 with Diablo 2, while was a great game in its time, today there are better spiritual successors as Path of Exile or Grim Dawn. Do not compare D3 with its (called) predecessor, compare it with the game that should be.
Here you have examples of the so named "builds" of Diablo 3, compared with Diablo 2, Path of Exile, and Grim Dawn (I've picked the first, but navigate at will).
Diablo 3
Diablo 2
Path of Exile
Grim Dawn
So, it's not even casualized regard contemporary ARPGs, but also regard its "predecessor". How can defend this? please, if you like Mario Bros with swords, it's ok, but don't defend the casualization of an iconic saga, it's so sad.
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