[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] And as the Arab people have demonstrated throughout this year, Arab governments don't usually represent public opinion. Polls have shown repeatedly that large majorities of both Palestinians and Israelis are willing to live amongst each other, side by side, in peace.

http://rhodonpublicaffairs.blogspot.com/2010/05/poll-most-palestinians-israelis-want.html

-Sun_Tzu-

And as we concluded the "settlements" are perfectly legal so not only are they giving up land they never had they're also giving up legally Israeli land. How generous of them!

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] When you are illegally settling on occupied territory, you are stealing land. That is a gross violation of the fourth Geneva convention, and you cannot show me one legal organization of international standing that thinks that the fourth Geneva convention (which Israel is a party to) do not apply. There is a broad consensus among the parties that have ratified the Geneva conventions that this is the case (as my linked demonstrated - you can call it an anti-Israeli organization but what it is, is a conference made up of 122 states that are parties to the Geneva conventions - the consensus they reach carries a tremendous amount of legal authority). Even the United States, Israel's greatest ally, recognizes Israel as an occupying power.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"][QUOTE="EsYuGee"] The basis of the 2 state solution is Israel and Palestine side by side. As someone who follows this so closely, you should know that Netanyahu specifically said a "Jewish" state and not an "Israeli" state because he needed to create opposition. Abbas knows that if he recognises Israel as Jewish that would limit the right of return claim. Ask yourself this then, why recognition as a Jewish state, and not an Israeli one, when more thatn 20% of the people there are not Jewish? That would be like the US declaring it's a "white" country. Also, "willing to recognise" does not mean "recognise." Both sides have reneged on their promises before; why should one state officially recognise the other first? "Pulling a fast one" means trying to slip one in or being tricky hoping the other party doesn't realise.EsYuGee

Well I'm going away for a while in case you're wondering why I am not replying to you all

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

"The participating High Contracting Parties reaffirm the applicability of the [Fourth Geneva Convention] to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem and reiterate the need for full respect for the provisions of the said Convention in that Territory. Through the present Declaration, they recall in particular the respective obligations under the Convention of all High Contracting Parties (para 4-7), of the parties to the conflict (para 8-11) and of the State of Israel as the Occupying Power (para 12-15)"

http://www.fmep.org/reports/archive/vol.-12/no.-1/conference-of-high-contracting-parties-to-the-fourth-geneva-convention-declaration

The settlements they are building are flat out illegal. And Israel shouldn't be expecting to get anything in return for these territories - why are they entitled to profit off of stolen land? There's a reason why there is palestinian hostility towards Israel - sure, some of it has to do with anti-semitism - but there are legitimate grievances that the Palestinian people are rightfully upset about, and the Israeli government has completely ignored these grievances, and by doing that it also fuels the irrational hatred towards the Jewish people. The policies that the Israeli government is pursuing at the moment are self-destructive. If they continue to go down this path they are only going to breed more hatred and isolate itself further from the international community.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"][QUOTE="EsYuGee"] Oh boy, here comes those semantics again. Abbas would probably accept an Israeli state, but not a "Jewish state" because that would undermine the refugee problem. Netanyahu was trying to pull a fast one and you know it. On the other hand, why is Israel so antagonistic toward a "Palestinian state."EsYuGee

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"][QUOTE="sonicare"] Good points. The israeli people end up bearing the brunt of the response to their government's policies. Those settlements are illegal and just a bad idea in general.

sonicare

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"]Yes it certainly does. I'd really like to see where in international law this is demonstrably wrong. And they should continue to build settlements as long as there are noone to negotiate with. Even if that land did not belong to them in the first place do you think it's right that they should give it away in return for absolutely nothing but increased hostility? As with Gaza and South Lebanon. And as with Egypt where it'll be pretty much be revoked. sonicare

"The participating High Contracting Parties reaffirm the applicability of the [Fourth Geneva Convention] to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem and reiterate the need for full respect for the provisions of the said Convention in that Territory. Through the present Declaration, they recall in particular the respective obligations under the Convention of all High Contracting Parties (para 4-7), of the parties to the conflict (para 8-11) and of the State of Israel as the Occupying Power (para 12-15)"

http://www.fmep.org/reports/archive/vol.-12/no.-1/conference-of-high-contracting-parties-to-the-fourth-geneva-convention-declaration

The settlements they are building are flat out illegal. And Israel shouldn't be expecting to get anything in return for these territories - why are they entitled to profit off of stolen land? There's a reason why there is palestinian hostility towards Israel - sure, some of it has to do with anti-semitism - but there are legitimate grievances that the Palestinian people are rightfully upset about, and the Israeli government has completely ignored these grievances, and by doing that it also fuels the irrational hatred towards the Jewish people. The policies that the Israeli government is pursuing at the moment are self-destructive. If they continue to go down this path they are only going to breed more hatred and isolate itself further from the international community.

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

"The participating High Contracting Parties reaffirm the applicability of the [Fourth Geneva Convention] to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem and reiterate the need for full respect for the provisions of the said Convention in that Territory. Through the present Declaration, they recall in particular the respective obligations under the Convention of all High Contracting Parties (para 4-7), of the parties to the conflict (para 8-11) and of the State of Israel as the Occupying Power (para 12-15)"

http://www.fmep.org/reports/archive/vol.-12/no.-1/conference-of-high-contracting-parties-to-the-fourth-geneva-convention-declaration

The settlements they are building are flat out illegal. And Israel shouldn't be expecting to get anything in return for these territories - why are they entitled to profit off of stolen land? There's a reason why there is palestinian hostility towards Israel - sure, some of it has to do with anti-semitism - but there are legitimate grievances that the Palestinian people are rightfully upset about, and the Israeli government has completely ignored these grievances, and by doing that it also fuels the irrational hatred towards the Jewish people. The policies that the Israeli government is pursuing at the moment are self-destructive. If they continue to go down this path they are only going to breed more hatred and isolate itself further from the international community.

-Sun_Tzu-

Regardless, none of what you said makes what Israel continues to do any less illegal.

[QUOTE="Cow4ever"]Yes it certainly does. I'd really like to see where in international law this is demonstrably wrong. And they should continue to build settlements as long as there are noone to negotiate with. Even if that land did not belong to them in the first place do you think it's right that they should give it away in return for absolutely nothing but increased hostility? As with Gaza and South Lebanon. And as with Egypt where it'll be pretty much be revoked. -Sun_Tzu-

"The participating High Contracting Parties reaffirm the applicability of the [Fourth Geneva Convention] to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem and reiterate the need for full respect for the provisions of the said Convention in that Territory. Through the present Declaration, they recall in particular the respective obligations under the Convention of all High Contracting Parties (para 4-7), of the parties to the conflict (para 8-11) and of the State of Israel as the Occupying Power (para 12-15)"

http://www.fmep.org/reports/archive/vol.-12/no.-1/conference-of-high-contracting-parties-to-the-fourth-geneva-convention-declaration

The settlements they are building are flat out illegal. And Israel shouldn't be expecting to get anything in return for these territories - why are they entitled to profit off of stolen land? There's a reason why there is palestinian hostility towards Israel - sure, some of it has to do with anti-semitism - but there are legitimate grievances that the Palestinian people are rightfully upset about, and the Israeli government has completely ignored these grievances, and by doing that it also fuels the irrational hatred towards the Jewish people. The policies that the Israeli government is pursuing at the moment are self-destructive. If they continue to go down this path they are only going to breed more hatred and isolate itself further from the international community.