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LOXO7

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#1 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts
Can I give up all?
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#2 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts
I would think there would be more people to recognize that it's a way to control people and would automatically be opposed for that reason.

No. It's 2012.

MobilechicaneX
That's not a good reason not to. It's discriminating people in the past for being less intelligent.
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#3 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts
[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

lol, what in the world are you rambling about? I never said I was pro-choice because it was permitted. And also, what does supporting abortion because it's permitted (not that anyone actually said that) have to do with pointing out that justice can be administered without killing someone?

kraychik
You never said it directly, but I think it is hinted. Even in the, "we as a society grant personhood at birth" comment you succumb to this thinking. I believe you are pro-choice because it is not illegal. You support abortion, and yet say there is another way for justice other than the death sentence. Well why not have justice through complete pregnancy?

Answer this simple question with a yes or no response - is there an automatic moral/philosophical contradiction between supporting capital punishment on the one hand while opposing abortion on the other?

Yes. But you are going to have to describe your thought process more thoroughly without the sidewinder help Greyseal put everyone through.
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LOXO7

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#4 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Regardless of what you think is right, we as a society grant personhood at birth.

Do you have any legitimate reason why personhood should be granted before birth?

GreySeal9

It's life. lol

And I take it that you oppose capital punishment.

Are you learning from my previous posts that there are hints within the words and that people do not have to say something literally for something to be said? :)
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LOXO7

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#5 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts
[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Well, the thing is kraychik, I kind of have to argue with their position because they are the ones that have a moral foundation for their beliefs even if some of those sanctity of life folks contradict themselves. You don't even have any foundation for your beliefs and the one you tried to advance (that opposing abortion somehow prevents societal chaos in its embrace of rights) was so ridiculously silly that it made it abudantly clear that you are extremely confused and don't quite know why you believe what you do.

kraychik
You just contradicted yourself. You support abortion because it's permitted, then you say justice doesn't have to deal with death. Stop being a moderate and get off of that fence.

What was funny was when I told him that if one believes that there is a contradiction in opposing abortion while supporting capital punishment (which is his flawed argument), then there must also be a contradiction in the inverse - those who support abortion rights or are ""pro-choice" who also oppose capital punishment. His argument, is that he denies the personhood of an unborn fetus, so terminating a pregnancy is something entirely different than executing a person convicted of a capital offence. What he refuses to acknowledge, however, is that conservatives believe that people can forfeit their right to life and security of person after committing capital offences, which distinguishes them from unborn children who cannot be guilty of such offences, while many conservatives tend to view the unborn child as a person.

It's conservative to just kill someone because of there previous offenses, but is it right? No. The justice is to convert them truly. That is supposed to be the purpose of the correctional facilities.
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#6 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Well, the thing is kraychik, I kind of have to argue with their position because they are the ones that have a moral foundation for their beliefs even if some of those sanctity of life folks contradict themselves. You don't even have any foundation for your beliefs and the one you tried to advance (that opposing abortion somehow prevents societal chaos in its embrace of rights) was so ridiculously silly that it made it abudantly clear that you are extremely confused and don't quite know why you believe what you do.

GreySeal9

You just contradicted yourself. You support abortion because it's permitted, then you say justice doesn't have to deal with death. Stop being a moderate and get off of that fence.

lol, what in the world are you rambling about? I never said I was pro-choice because it was permitted. And also, what does supporting abortion because it's permitted (not that anyone actually said that) have to do with pointing out that justice can be administered without killing someone?

You never said it directly, but I think it is hinted. Even in the, "we as a society grant personhood at birth" comment you succumb to this thinking. I believe you are pro-choice because it is not illegal. You support abortion, and yet say there is another way for justice other than the death sentence. Well why not have justice through complete pregnancy?
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#7 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

[QUOTE="LOXO7"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Yes, we secure right of life to people. A fetus is a human life, not a person as personhood is established at birth. So really, for your argument to make any sense at all, a premium on human life needs to be part of the picture. After all, abortions, which are legal in this country, are not causing chaos at all. So there goes that argument. You don't seem to realize that without placing a premium on human life, you have nothing.

And you all fail to acknowledge that one does not need to kill inmates to promote security and justice.

kraychik,...

GreySeal9

I don't think you know where you are. You believe something is right just because it is legal? That's how laws change, by having people believe laws are wrong. Then through disscussion they change. You do have to abort to promote justice? Because it's legal, therefor it is justice, right? Ridiculous.

Regardless of what you think is right, we as a society grant personhood at birth.

Do you have any legitimate reason why personhood should be granted before birth?

It's life. lol
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#8 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

He never said that you mentioned sanctity of life. He said that those who claim to be pro-life usually do. Rather than considering his argument you avoid it, call it a strawman and then claim victory. Kinda like a child who knocks all the pieces off a game board then excitedly proclaims "I win!".

GreySeal9

Actually, I asked him whether or not there was a moral contradiction when supporting capital punishment as well as opposing abortion, and he (predictably as a leftist) said yes. I then explained in simple terms that one can certainly hold these two positions without engaging in moral hypocrisy. He then tried to deflect by stating that he wasn't talking about me, but about others. Unfortunately for him, and for you, it is I who is in this thread, not the others you two wish you were arguing with.

Well, the thing is kraychik, I kind of have to argue with their position because they are the ones that have a moral foundation for their beliefs even if some of those sanctity of life folks contradict themselves. You don't even have any foundation for your beliefs and the one you tried to advance (that opposing abortion somehow prevents societal chaos in its embrace of rights) was so ridiculously silly that it made it abudantly clear that you are extremely confused and don't quite know why you believe what you do.

You just contradicted yourself. You support abortion because it's permitted, then you say justice doesn't have to deal with death. Stop being a moderate and get off of that fence.
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#9 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

[QUOTE="kraychik"]

You realize that without guaranteeing people the right to life and security of person, we would be permitting chaos in our society where murder and assault would be rampant, right? We need to guarantee these basic rights to people in order to maintain a free society. This has nothing to do with the sanctity of life, which again is an argument I never advanced. It's about basic rights that are essential to society. Beyond that, one can hold that certain offences constitute capita offences, which forefit the person's basic right to life and security of person. How embarassing is it that after my articulating of this consistent position many times in this thread, you're still unable to understand it. This really is a teachable moment for you.

GreySeal9

Yes, we secure right of life to people. A fetus is a human life, not a person as personhood is established at birth. So really, for your argument to make any sense at all, a premium on human life needs to be part of the picture. After all, abortions, which are legal in this country, are not causing chaos at all. So there goes that argument. You don't seem to realize that without placing a premium on human life, you have nothing.

And you all fail to acknowledge that one does not need to kill inmates to promote security and justice.

kraychik,...

I don't think you know where you are. You believe something is right just because it is legal? That's how laws change, by having people believe laws are wrong. Then through disscussion they change. You do have to abort to promote justice? Because it's legal, therefor it is justice, right? Ridiculous.

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#10 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts
[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] For official documentation yes. That doesn't mean other languages cannot be spoken in the land....LJS9502_basic

I thought official documents were already in English?

Your second sentence goes without saying lol.

Yes they are. But that doesn't mean it couldn't change. And frankly it might give some immigrants the impetus to learn English. A language barrier can be a problem for success. Shouldn't we want success to be the goal of citizens?

I thought it was freedom?! My mistake.