That's why I still play PnP. And also why it's not the technical aspects of PnP why should be translated in video games, but the experience of living in an alternate reality. Which CAN be achieved to some extent, without ever reaching the absolute freedom which a human DM allows.

I guess I'm a vegetarian of RPGs... and I like organic fruit...

Anyway, as you all said, things just aren't going to change. But at least I can get my frustration out. And one never knows, if enough people found something to agree on, some petitions could be made...

So, yeah, in principle you are entirely correct - but in practice, we need these effective misnomers. It just makes things easier. Out of interest, what brief label would you apply to the RPG genre if you could change it into something more accurate? Bearing in mind that it would need to be universally understandable and applicable to a broad range of sub-genres and even individual gameplay elements.

mfsa

I would keep RPG for what I call RPG, because there is no better definition, and what it does is what it says. MMO-RPGs, action-RPGs, J-RPGs (or console-RPGs) would have to be consistently called as such (because I realise there is no point trying to remove the "-RPG" element, although it's highly inaccurate) and not be considered as sub-genres of RPGs as is currently standard practice. I think it could potentially rehabilitate the genre and its fundamental characteristics. At the moment I feel like the "true" RPG is an endangered species, in spite of the fact that there is an important market for it. See how many people are still awaiting Baldurs' Gate 2's successor.

the way i see it all modern "rpg's" originated from pen and ink like D&D, to catogorize all these similar games into different genres is like like saying an apple is not a fruit because its "different" from an orange, therefore it should have its own "special" catogory. It makes no sense.

comradex

What CRPGs like Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights inherited from PnP RPGs is only the technical aspects, which don't actually make sense on a computer. Things like character sheets and special dice were created to be managed by hand, which meant that concerns for realism often had to be cast aside; however, a human being with the gift of common sense was there to make things work. The Role-Playing element which is the true purpose of PNP games was largely lost in the process of computerisation.

If roast beef came to be categorised as fruit because you can eat it, there would be a problem of vocabulary, don't you think?

The definition of rpg is a game were players assume the role of a charector and follow/ create a storyline. players determine their actions which work or fail according to the games preset rules. Improvization is key, and players decisions affect the outcome of the game.

comradex

Agreed. But this contradicts your first point as most games labelled as RPGs don't have these characteristics.

I'd like to set up a poll listing the characteristics that people usually associate with RPGs and ask which people would pick as the defining element. But I feel like I'm too partial to make an objective list. Anyone interested in trying?

[QUOTE="_Tobli_"][QUOTE="fireandcloud"][QUOTE="Darth_Kane"]

This also means that JRPGs aren't real RPGs as well

fireandcloud

i have no problem with that. hate jrpg...

Hate jrpg's? I could understand dislike, but hate? Why?

i used to have a 'friend' that loved final fantasy; he had posters of tifa and lionheart and whatever they're called. he had like a replica of cloud's sword and stuff. he bugged me constantly about these things. he was really weird about it. that's one reason. and there's something about the looks of jrpg characters that really irk me; pretty, effiminate heterosexual boys - i don't know; they just gives me the heevy jeevies.

ROFL same here.

[QUOTE="Plomdidom"]

I think we agree on the fundamental concepts, it's jut a matter of agreeing on the vocabulary. In Oblivion, you're not evil if you steal, unless you consider that evil yourself. In the gameword, nobody really gives a damn. The concept of choice implies consequences. Therefore Oblivion isn't a RPG. I do agree that there has to be an impact, just it doesn't have to be world-scale. My previous formulation was faulty.

fireandcloud

no, a thief is evil in oblivion, cuz if you get caught, you go to jail. there are laws in oblivion, and these laws define what the standard for good and evil is in that world. i think where bethseda went awry is the implementation of these punishments - someone who kills a person should be branded a murderer, thus causing people to avoid you - bethseda failed to do that, making oblivion a very weak rpg. or the example you gave with stealing a plain sword - they did make an rpg; just a very stupid rpg. just my opinion. :)

Ah well that's an interesting concept - that the law defines what is evil. Not so sure myself. But ok, Oblivion does have some faint characteristics of RPGs. But not to the extent that the game as a whole be called a RPG. just my opinion. ;)

Aaah please don't start on the merits of JRPGS or the thread is dead. Start a different one maybe.

I'll stick with my definition: choices that truly matter. It's not so much how you do things but to what end.

I remember in Planescape Torment, you don't get to choose the character in the beginning. Yet I see it as the archetypal RPG, because throughout the game, you get to define who the Nameless One really is.