[QUOTE="Plomdidom"][QUOTE="fireandcloud"]

[QUOTE="Plomdidom"]The reason why most adventure games wouldn't rank as RPGs is because they're linear. Choices are usually limited to the order in which you complete the actions (kind of like Oblivion actually).fireandcloud

but you can make choices in oblivion - you can choose to steal or not steal, for instance.

But the choices don't really matter in the end. They only affect your inventory.

right, so you agree with me - the character has to impact the world or the world impact the character? but it definitely has a role-playing element; you steal, you're evil; you don't steal, you're good - you play a role and you choose what role to play. your choices just don't mean all that much (and that's just a bad design by bethseda). like i wrote, i think oblivion is an rpg - just a very shallow rpg. at the very least, it can be argued that it's an rpg, just as much as it can be argued that it's not.

I think we agree on the fundamental concepts, it's jut a matter of agreeing on the vocabulary. In Oblivion, you're not evil if you steal, unless you consider that evil yourself. In the gameword, nobody really gives a damn. The concept of choice implies consequences. Therefore Oblivion isn't a RPG. I do agree that there has to be an impact, just it doesn't have to be world-scale. My previous formulation was faulty.

Edit: I realise that some attempts were made in Oblivion to make choices matter, but they're all unrealistic and plain annoying. For example if you steal a sword, even a very standard one with no special characeristics, every shopkeeper in the whole wide world will instantly know it and refuse to buy it. That's just ridiculous. I think most of all the problem is that people don't react as individually defined characters; as said before, they're just robots all made from the same mould.

[QUOTE="Plomdidom"]The reason why most adventure games wouldn't rank as RPGs is because they're linear. Choices are usually limited to the order in which you complete the actions (kind of like Oblivion actually).fireandcloud

but you can make choices in oblivion - you can choose to steal or not steal, for instance.

But the choices don't really matter in the end. They only affect your inventory.

Take the character of Martin for instance, who's the one character you're supposed to have some emotional attachment to. He doesn't give a damn if you're a child murderer or a wandering saint. Your choices don't make any difference to what actually matters.

[QUOTE="Plomdidom"]What RPGs are not about: stats, dice, levelling-up, fancy armors and weapons, number of quests, graphics. Even though they can be part of it.

With this definition, games like Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, or Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines would be good RPGs. Diablo and Oblivion are not, regardless of their own qualities. Of course these would be the more clear-cut cases and some games are not easy to categorise. In my view some games classified as adventure games would be RPGs.foxhound_fox

Couldn't agree more. Nothing to add. Except maybe that I'm still looking for an RPG where there isn't any fighting. And that's why I would consider some maths-free adventure games as RPGs. Such as some text adventures (or Interactive Fiction).

[QUOTE="Plomdidom"]I don't really see the way the PC impacts on the world as a defining trait of RPGs. Planescape: Torment for example is very introspective, it's about saving yourself and defining who you are. On the other hand, most action games are about effectively saving the world.fireandcloud

even in small ways, a character can impact the world; like in real life - i'm a nobody; i won't impact 'the world;' but i impact my small niche of the world, at the very least - i.e., impact my family, friends, colleagues, etc.). and i think there has to be a balance; if the character doesn't impact the world all that much, then it has to have other strong character development elements, like how the world impacts the character.

I completely agree with that.

I think all in all it boils down to one idea: an RPG is a game where the character is presented with choices, the outcome of which truly affects the said character's environment and/or personal development.

Then a good RPG is one which includes meaningful choices, with a degree of originality and subtlety.

Well in Oblivion there is no dialogue per se. You just click a topic and they give you their line. And I didn't feel that my actions made any difference to the world, even though I've finished the game. I just didn't see anything change apart from the way people greeted me. People just go about their daily business and it really doesn't seem to matter to them whether or not there's an Oblivion gate at their doorstep.

Besides, NPCs don't seem to have any kind of personality, they seem very robotic, which makes the player very aware that they are the only conscious being in the whole world.

[QUOTE="Plomdidom"]I would see character development only as a secondary characteristic of RPGs. The identification of RPGs with character development (as in character sheet management) is the main cause of the aforementioned confusion, which leads games like Diablo to be classified as RPGs when they are mostly about hack 'n' slash action.Cobra_nVidia

There is clearly confusion. However, you've chosen to define RPG's in a way that games of the RPG genre are not necessarily included. That means pretty bluntly you're idea of what constitutes an RPG is totally wrong.

Defining RPGs by gathering all the games that have that label on the box defeats the purpose of my question. And I would add that my vision of what an RPG is is shared by many people who have a role-playing culture beyond computer games. It doesn't mean that I'm an authority of any kind but please respect my point of view.

i think rpg is all about character development - who that character is at the beginning of the game, who the character is at the end of the game, and how the character impacts the world and the world impacts the character in between. if there's a strong element of such character development, then it's an rpg. so diablo doesn't quite cut it, cuz the only way in which the character impacts the world is by becoming stronger and defeating the monsters/saving the world. oblivion does make the cut; it's an rpg; it's just not a very good game.fireandcloud

I agree with that except that character development is usually meant to reflect character sheet management, skills and levelling up stuff. the kind of character development you are talking about is what I'd call story/dialogue/gameworld mechanics.

And why would you call Oblivion a RPG if it doesn't fit with your definition of character development? Acquiring items and killing monsters is also a string feature of shooters and many strategy games...