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SleepyByte

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#1 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts

How do you know if you're not a lawyer? The ESRB doesn't effectively have absolute power over anything and will never be law. Rockstar and their lawyers are talking right now. That's where we're at.appleater

Yeah I could give you a couple of pages of reply to that but I'll just say DO TOO! have absolute power. :P

I have read that UK classification authorities didn't object to specific scenes in Manhunt 2, rather it was the "gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence" or "sustained and cumulative casual sadism" that led to national ban. If that's the case the it may not be possible to tone the game down since its not anything specific but rather the overall "cumulative" content of the game. If it cant be toned down enough to get an M rating then perhaps a port to PC will be the only option to get the game released and that would mean nothing for the consoles. The more I read the more its looking like it will not be possible to get the rating required for console release.

With the game on hold now I think it's going to be a while before we hear anything else about it.

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#2 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts
[QUOTE="nopalversion"][QUOTE="O_Goncho"][QUOTE="gaminggeek"]

The AO rating has dead and buried this game.

Platform holders refuse to let Manhunt 2 appear on US consoles

O_Goncho

What I don't understand is why having an AO rating is such a big deal when in Engand games are slapped with the 18 certificate all the time... what's the difference?

The difference is that both Sony and Nintendo refuse to have on their systems games rated higher than Mature.

Thing is, from what I've read (thanks gaminggeek) the game does deserve this kind of rating. Fighting in a sleezy cinema with porn playing in the background? Sheesh... that takes a lot of cheek.

But that's what I don't understand. Isn't 18 the English equivalent to AO? And yet games are released with it all the time...

I only ask because from what I've read it seems all AO means is you be 18 or over to play it... surely that shouldn't warrant a refusal to publish it on their systems?

The English standard law right?
The ESRB standards in the USA are "Voluntary Industry Standards".
Those ratings are
EC (Early Childhood) 3 and up
E (Everyone) 6 and up
E10+ 10 and up
T (Teen) 13 and up
M (Mature) 17 and up
AO (Adults Only) 18 and up (this should be 21 but whatever)

And they all don't mean JACK ****
There is no law to back it up.

Some attempts have been made and people assume that ESRB is already or will at some point be law but right now it is not. As it stands now there is no penalty for selling anything with any ESRB rating on it to anyone. The thing of it is that even if it were law the console manufactures are under no obligation to allow games to be made for there systems for any rating legal or not that they do not see fit. Sony Nintendo and Microsoft have decided that if the ESRB gives it an AO rating then they will not publish it. AO = BAN giving the ESRB the right to ban video games (except for the PC or MACand any other console I'm unaware of) in the USA. This effectively gives the ESRB absolute power over what you can and cant play. Its perfectly legal and there aint a damm thing you, me the constitution or anything else here in the USAcan do about it.

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#3 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts
[QUOTE="SleepyByte"][QUOTE="Brain3000"][QUOTE="SleepyByte"][QUOTE="Brain3000"][QUOTE="SleepyByte"]

Yeah it looks like there will be no choice but to do what it takes for the M rating.
While my previous comment sounded nice its not the way it works in the real world.
Unfortunately I seriously doubt any uncensored version could ever see the shelf.
With Microsoft on the No AO for Console band wagon the subject is all but closed.
Even if Rock Star wanted to release unrated for PCit I dont think Microsoft would allow it.

CarnageHeart

PC is the only place where it could be released unrated or rated at the AO level, since there is no licensing issues on the PC as there is for consoles. Microsoft can't say anything about any type of game that goes to PC.

There is no way that Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft will let them release a version
on PC that has the content that was removed from the other versions.
It will be part of the deal.

Take a look at San Andreas.
Don't see any AO copy's of that on the shelf anymore PC or otherwise do you.
All you can get is the sanitized version becausewhen the AO rating was retroactively
issued production was stopped and the game was reworked.
Of course I have no proof that this was not "voluntary" but I find it highly unlikely.

Your right, it could be.... but it wont be.

The console makers only care about the rating that is on the game for their consoles. They could care less if a version of the game went to the PC with a higher rating or no rating at all, since that game wouldn't be on their console.

It was only after it was proved in GTA:SA that the Hot Coffee mod content was in the console games too that they were pulled off the shelves. If the Hot Coffee mod wasn't in the console versions, they wouldn't have been rerated, and would have stayed on the shelf.

Yes but the PC version was not left for sale with the content intact with the AO rating. It was removed and re-released as version 2.0 with the M rating

I don't consider the chopping out of content in GTA: SA the same as the probably chopping out of content in Manhunt 2. In GTA: SA the content was stuff Rockstar had decided not to implement but had left on the disk. There was no way to access it in-game but eventually hackers with way too much time on their hands found the code. The discovered content was more extreme than what was in-game (though less extreme than what is on network tv) so I though it was kinda-sorta fair that the ESRB kicked up the rating (in light of America's attitudes towards sex and the fact that arguably Rockstar should have excised the content in question). By way of contrast, this time an AO is being imposed for violence (so it appears) which is part of the content Rockstar showed to the ESRB (not something subsequently discovered). I didn't think the AO for SA had implications for anything (the only message was 'clean up your code before shipping') whereas an AO for violence might very well affect the rest of the industry (particularly since it seems like the AO imposed represents an expansion of the category).

I think AOs and Xs for violence arestupid and arbitrary(the'ED-209 machine-gunning the guy scene' in Robocop had to be cut by a few seconds to avoid an X, though it was by no means the most violent scene in the movie) and I strongly disapprove of them.

I brought up GTA because I thought it was a valid comparison.
Same game company same type of controversial content and a new GTA game is on the horizon so this might very well be a preview or feeling out process for RockStar and how they approach that release and what they can and cant get away with.

I understand what your saying. In SA it was more an oversight or along the lines of an Easter Egg type of thing because the content could not be accessed during the normal course of play and this is the entire game concept. The parallel, well,my perception of a parallel, seemed to indicate a precedent for the fact that Rockstar would not trim the content for consoles and release a PC version with the omitted content in because in the SA example that was not how it was done.

Brian3000 brings up the point that he does not think the console company's care if an unedited version is released for PC and I really think they do. I think they care a lot. The reason is because they know someone might be making the decision to purchase the PlayStation or Wii version (that helps them earn money) or the PC version (that does not) based on if they want the banned content or would rather go slashing around with the Wiimote.

And yes 5upermario I did write that I believe me I would like nothing better but I also later wrote "While my previous comment sounded nice its not the way it works in the real world." At this point I would say RockStar has no choice but to appeal the rating and failing that comply and do what needs to be done to get an M rating and make a profit.

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#4 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts
[QUOTE="SleepyByte"][QUOTE="Brain3000"][QUOTE="SleepyByte"]

Yeah it looks like there will be no choice but to do what it takes for the M rating.
While my previous comment sounded nice its not the way it works in the real world.
Unfortunately I seriously doubt any uncensored version could ever see the shelf.
With Microsoft on the No AO for Console band wagon the subject is all but closed.
Even if Rock Star wanted to release unrated for PCit I dont think Microsoft would allow it.

Brain3000

PC is the only place where it could be released unrated or rated at the AO level, since there is no licensing issues on the PC as there is for consoles. Microsoft can't say anything about any type of game that goes to PC.

There is no way that Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft will let them release a version
on PC that has the content that was removed from the other versions.
It will be part of the deal.

Take a look at San Andreas.
Don't see any AO copy's of that on the shelf anymore PC or otherwise do you.
All you can get is the sanitized version becausewhen the AO rating was retroactively
issued production was stopped and the game was reworked.
Of course I have no proof that this was not "voluntary" but I find it highly unlikely.

Your right, it could be.... but it wont be.

The console makers only care about the rating that is on the game for their consoles. They could care less if a version of the game went to the PC with a higher rating or no rating at all, since that game wouldn't be on their console.

It was only after it was proved in GTA:SA that the Hot Coffee mod content was in the console games too that they were pulled off the shelves. If the Hot Coffee mod wasn't in the console versions, they wouldn't have been rerated, and would have stayed on the shelf.

Yes but the PC version was not left for sale with the content intact with the AO rating. It was removed and re-released as version 2.0 with the M rating

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#5 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts

I cant for the life of me remember the name of the game because it was at a friends house but I do but I do recall loosing my last bit of health and dyingby getting punched in the party zone.

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#6 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts

I know people that don't like Black and White movies and refuse to watch them.

One of them watched Fire Fox and thought it was ok....
Wanna talk about bad graphics LOL.
You know how many great Black and White movies they are missing?

As for the guy at the store, yes it was for him to tell you the graphics are not that great. If he did not 9 times out of 10 someone expecting Gears of War quality would likely have come back with a machete. With an old Playsation the range of graphics quality is very wide and some games are down right ugly to the point of interfering with play. I still think a game can be great without all the eye candy but nowadays you come to expect it. I think graphics are important but as others have said they can't fix a bad game.

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#7 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts
I singled out Microsoft and have included them in my posts and that was bad form.
In fact they are only involved in so much that they stated they also would not allow any AO games to be released for their console. Manhunter 2 is not even scheduled to be released on 360 and thanks to the person that pointed that out to me. ;)
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#8 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts
[QUOTE="SleepyByte"]

Yeah it looks like there will be no choice but to do what it takes for the M rating.
While my previous comment sounded nice its not the way it works in the real world.
Unfortunately I seriously doubt any uncensored version could ever see the shelf.
With Microsoft on the No AO for Console band wagon the subject is all but closed.
Even if Rock Star wanted to release unrated for PCit I dont think Microsoft would allow it.

Brain3000

PC is the only place where it could be released unrated or rated at the AO level, since there is no licensing issues on the PC as there is for consoles. Microsoft can't say anything about any type of game that goes to PC.

There is no way that Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft will let them release a version
on PC that has the content that was removed from the other versions.
It will be part of the deal.

Take a look at San Andreas.
Don't see any AO copy's of that on the shelf anymore PC or otherwise do you.
All you can get is the sanitized version becausewhen the AO rating was retroactively
issued production was stopped and the game was reworked.
Of course I have no proof that this was not "voluntary" but I find it highly unlikely.

Your right, it could be.... but it wont be.

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#9 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts

Yeah it looks like there will be no choice but to do what it takes for the M rating.
While my previous comment sounded nice its not the way it works in the real world.
Unfortunately I seriously doubt any uncensored version could ever see the shelf.
With Microsoft on the No AO for Console band wagon the subject is all but closed.
Even if Rock Star wanted to release unrated for PCit I dont think Microsoft would allow it.

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#10 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts

One game gets banned and all the "rebels" without a cause rise up in arms. By next month all of them who swore to boycott and to rise up will be back to their usual routine.:)

All the hate that is directed towards the ESRB should be directed towards either A) Rockstar or B) Console Makers. The ESRB is just doing their job and to call it as they see it. Since Sony, Nintendo, and MS alone made each of their respected consoles, they have a right to do whatever they want with it and block anything they want and it isn't really a violation of any law since its their turf.

Chalk it up to one of the drawbacks of having a closed medium. I'm sure Rockstar will rerelease this game with an M rating and release the "uncensored" versionon PC (which is not regulated by anyone).

SuperSamyon

Who says PC is not regulated?
Microsoft can exercise a great deal of leverage on Rock Star if they choose.

M$ man says... "Well..... we aren't saying you cant do it but if you do we probably wont be
interested in anything else you might want to develop for Xbox EVER. But it's up to you.
Oh and you can't say Windows or Vista anywhere on the product.

One more thing, what was that car steeling thug thing? Grand Theft something or other.
Yeah we will get back to you on that one in ummmmmm 6 months or a year while you think
it over. I'm sure we can still make money off it after your out of business.
By the way I talked to the folks at Sony and Nintendo and they said ditto."

The bottom line is your right it is a closed medium and if the 'big three" agree on something
there isn't thing one anyone can do about it.
And there will be no unrated version like the movies.
Am I wrong or is San Andreas is no longer available in it's original form?
I believe only the sanitized version in the compilation and Greatest Hit's is available for PS2 and Xbox.
I know for PC we only have V2.0 for sale new, retail here in southern California.