[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] I'm not going to argue for a "moral imperative" since obviously morals aren't universal, but generally speaking, most people no matter their moral system have a hard time being ok with atrocities committed by their country. If you want to argue whether they were "atrocities" or not that's your business, but from where I am standing it's pretty clear. I'll agree that his wording...bothers me. To think of it, "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word (and it isn't accurate in what I said in this thread tbh), and infers that somehow you as an american are connected with the awful events that have occurred. That's like expecting a German to apologize for Hitler if they had nothing to do with the era or the events.mrbojangles25

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

we expect the Japanese government to apologize, not the people. Just like the US apologized for imprisoning Japanese people during WWII in internment camps. Just like the government of Germany apologized for the Holocaust. You get the idea

Government =/= the people, despite the fact we might say the government represents the people here :P

The current governmnet is not at all the same one that was in power during world war two... so they really had as little to do with Japanese attrocities as modern day Japanese. the US actually put the current governmnet in place... Should they feel remorseful or "ashamed"? Of course. Especially if you are the patriotic type.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

mrbojangles25

Because you're a human being (I think) and you have empathy for other human beings (I hope).

It is difficult to feel empathy for people I have never met or known that lived during a time I have never experienced.

It is history; tragic it might be, it is difficult to feel genuinely emotional about it at all. The best we can do is learn from it and, in this case, not repeat it.

I don't feel ashamed or embarrassed by it at all. And if anyone does, well, relative to the history of just about any other nation, the US is a saint so don't feel too bad.

US is a saint? I have a hard time buying that. But I am not in the mood to start bashing the US, so I'll let that point slide. yes, it is hard to actually feel emotional for people in history, but you can be empathetic. it's not too hard to imagine yourself in their position. Sadly, deaths that have taken place in history are little more than statistics for us today.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

I dunno, most people tend to have a negative view of atrocities.

majoras_wrath

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

Palantas

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

I suppose I just assumed that you were a moral person.

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]I've been watching America: The Story of the US, which pretty much goes through the entire history of America and ends at the present day (with Obama getting elected). I find American history fascinating - the speeches by Washington (Declaration of Independence) and Lincoln (Gettysburg Address) are absolutely godly, and always make me emotional every time I hear them. Do Americans think their history is wonderful? As a British man in Northern Ireland, and I don't particularly think my own Irish/British history is that interesting, although I'm not sure if that's because its my own history or because it's not as interesting as other histories.theone86

Let's just say I don't have as peachy an outlook as you do, that documentary sounds like it's pretty one-sided. If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilians. Simply put, I don't think the best gauge of a civilization are the speeches of its leaders, which are generally attempts to arouse feelings of pride. Your feelings simply tell me that they were effective speech writers, not necessarily great men.

A few things, though. One, Irish history is very interesting, from Irish attempts to win representation to Ireland when it was still an independent country, to the seige of Ireland in the 20th century by the UK. The problem is that they probably don't teach the whole history of Ireland in British schools. Two, British history is American history. Three, the British have a rich, if not necessarily amiable, history that goes back centuries and includes the most prominent western war until the twentieth century, the first Emperor of the west, and the bulk of western exploration of the globe.

I pretty much agree. That show was so biased... It basically skimmed over the numerouscrimes that we have committed... But I suppose the rest of the world already knows about those.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

[QUOTE="I"]

The Indians had a rough time, so I feel guilty and depressed all the time...

Palantas

Well you should...

You're kidding, right?

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

Overall these moments aren't too ingrained in my head. When they got Saddam I was still in Junior High. I heard about Osama from a pretty redneck friend of mine- he texted me that evening saying "They got Osama! ooh-ra!" or something along those lines. At first I didn't beleive him. I was pretty sickened, though, by everyone's celebration. Never have I seen people rejoice in someone's death. It's pretty morbid, when you think about it.

The image of Hussein's statue in Baghdad being pulled down (which I saw happen live, by the way) was much more prolific and I will never forget seeing it.

The Indians had a rough time, so I feel guilty and depressed all the time...

Ha, no. Can you imagine if I was like that? I enjoy studying history in general, but for the most part, I find European history more interesting than American history.

Palantas

Well you should...

Anyway I agree the history of the rest of the world (especially Europe and Asia) is much more interesting.

I think that our history is pretty embarassing, really. We stand up for freedom and justice, but half the time we outright deny it to other people (including American citizens). Almost all countries are like this but the US does not have a better (or cleaner) history than anyone else, as most Americans believe.

[QUOTE="bluetadomonk"]On the topic of kanye he may be an arrogant a-hole at times but he's so intelligent and you can tell in some of his songs even with all the fame and fortune it can be tough at times. Like this one right here. Ya he does dumb things at times but atleast he doesn't go bringing guns to airports or beating women and the today shows back room ( or whatever that tv show chris brown was on a few months ago). I just feel like people blow him off sometimes too fast because they just listen to a few of his songs. DaJuicyMan

People mostly hate on him cuz that whole "N word" thing, and alot of teenagers who never listened to him hate him for that Taylor swift thing. And also, I heard Rihanna gave C Breezy gonorrhea and that's why he whooped ass.

I actually have a theory regarding the beating incedent. If you have ever heard the song S&M by Rihanna (don't aske me how I have, but let's just say it ruined many a good mornings for me), she explicitly states that she gets sexual pleasure from pain. Thus, perhaps that was what was going on. :P