Well, that´s the thing... After the leaks the bitching changed, but the feeling was pretty much the same.
You may all be right, the game be very bad and the story horrendous... but you can also be very wrong, because presentation is very important in a game who has such focus on the story. I will be the first person in here saying you were right if that so...
But if you are wrong, you all deserve the disappointment. Naughty Dog is not perfect but is not EA or Ubisoft. How many times did they disappoint? And that's why I refuse to make judgements before the final produt being release.
That's also why I felt so disappointed with people reaction because of a kiss between two girls... Now is because (leaks)... Let's wait and see...
@lonesamurai00: "I have never, ever bought. or played a game based on its story"
To me the story is the main premise in a game. Obviously in a game the gameplay is very important but if I have to talk about the games I love the most is the story I remember, not the gameplay.And that´is why TLOU and TWD Episodes Season 1 are so high high in my list of favourite games.
One thing I start to realise is that the older I become the more important the story is to me. And it´s funny, last game that really got me was Horizon Zero Dawn... And all that it was needed was the intro...
I can´t remember if that is true or not. She is ready to die, that´s for sure. But she is also a 14 years old child. That "mind" is not in the right place.
And it was never never implied that she would be killed, the surgery in the brain was only revealed to Joel in the last chapter.
If Ellie had 18 years old and a more experienced life I would accept her sacrifice. But the key word is her own sacrifice, because even if she is willing to die she has no bearing in the fireflies decision.
On the other hand it is also implies that the surgery is not a guarantee of success, so... she may die for nothing.
But that's not relevant: As I told before an world without moral is just an animal world. If we are ready to sacrifice a child we don't deserve to be saved.
And I´m not saying this because is Ellie... I would not kill no one to save the world... Yet I would sacrifice myself with no problem. That´s the line between be on the good side... or the other side...
@mogan: "Ellie's always known the journey to the Fireflies was a death march and she wasn't coming back."
Actually no... It was never implied that she would be killed in the process. Otherwise Joel would never take her there...
"she's been ready to die ever since she was exposed to the fungus"
Yup... This is true...
"Joel's motivations have been selfish all along..."
I disagree. Yes, his motivations at the beginning of the game are selfish. But throughout the game he changes and starts to love Ellie. And in that moment, when Ellie becomes "his daughter" all changes.
And a son is invaluable.
"when TLoU ends, Joel is 100% the villain of that game"
I have to accept a different view but I disagree. If I have to sacrifice an innocent child to save the world... the world doesn't deserves to be saved...
@ccgod: Please... enlighten me what the problem is. In the beginning it was her orientation, now the spoilers without context... PLease tell me what the problem is... skip the spoilers because even if I know some of them I don´t care...
@lonesamurai00: You can find those guys in all platforms. They have the choice to play or not the game, but I wouldn't call them fans. Sure, they can bitch about the game if the game is bad, but to doubt Naughty Dog before the release of the game is unfair. We are not talking about EA or Ubisoft.
They can fail, but some of these guys are being unfair. The first game plot is taking one person from one place to the other. It was the execution who made the game superb.
@sparent180: I agree that Joel is not the typical good guy. But I disagree with your view of the Fireflies. To me they are easily an evil group. Anyone who tries to kill innocent children are bad in my book.
"the story can be viewed differently depending on an individual's personal beliefs."
That is an undeniable truth... but at the same time that´s the reason is so black and white to me.
Yeah, I disagree... It's very hard for me to see grey situations...
"it can be inferred that Ellie would have been willing to die for a cure."
Yeah... That´s true. It can be also inferred in the giraffe scene that Ellie is changing and expanding her view. But either way, she is a 14 years old little girl. Obviously traumatised, so you want to let her make that decision freely?
Let her live a little, make 18 years, and then she is an adult to make her own choice. A more thoughtful choice.
"You can say he is good but it's certainly not cut and dry."
Yes... Joel has his own demons, no deny about it. But as a father, I think his reaction was soft when they took Ellie...And as a father I can perfectly understand his reaction and his lie.
"So really the only difference between him and them is that we see Joel's story and get to sympathize with him."
Probably. But that's what character growth is... Ellie changed Joel, she gave him purpose... The Joel you are playing is not a bad guy... The Joel before that... well that´s another story...
"ND didn't give us easy, obvious answers"
Maybe it was me... But I agreed with all decisions made by Joel throughout the game...
"to me a big theme of TLOU is that good people do bad things and bad people do good things"
Yes... That was one of the themes... But I believe that every gamer has his own view of the themes. To me the theme is "life purpose".
Survival is the essence of life, but is love, friendship, empathy that gives purpose to that essence. A son/daughter are invaluable, the perfect reason to embrace life and make survival be more than an animal act.
@sparent180: "Another person can say he selfishly saved Ellie who was willing to die to save humanity."
A traumatised 14 years old girl... Sure, obvious capacity to make such decision... Also, no one ask her, she was unconscious...
"What exactly makes him good and the other people bad?"
As Joel, besides the doctors for obvious reasons, I only killed people who tried to kill me. So yes, they bad, Joel not bad...
"can we say for sure that his reasons for killing people are more justifed or right than the reasons people are trying to kill him?"
As said before, I only killed people who is trying to kill me. So defence is not murder. I don't know the reasons why they are attacking (well, some of them just want a snack), but if the reasons are right, that´s not Joel to blame.
The only thing that can make Joel bad is his past between the beginning of outbreak and the when the game starts (old Joel).
@aross2004: "So was Joel a "good guy"." In the beginning of the game no... But I would say that in the middle he is fine. More than a good person he becomes a father....
"but his decision at the end of the first game absolutely cemented him as a bad guy for me."
Funny. That decision makes him the good guy for me... I will never understand how to save a little girl is a bad action... But in a world with Trumps and Bolsonaro's I think everyone hasa differents views...
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