@ezio899: "asked me to explain my reasoning while ignoring the explanation I already gave you."
Oh... Sorry... It was so empty of content that I was trying to go to the source of the claim.
"Ellie kills countless people including accidentally killing a pregnant woman out of blind revenge."
Yes... But the key factor is: How many people does she kills not acting in self defence? A tip... 2... Nora and the slaver.
"only for Tommy to show up and convince her to go back for revenge only to lose everything while letting Abby live."
Wrong... Ellie second journey is not about revenge. She gives up everything to find a reason to live again and to kill her inner demons. Killing Abby would not solve her problems (on the contrary), and thankfully, she understand that in the final moment.
"My point was blindly trusting strangers like Abby."
He never trusted blindly on Abby. It was to go with her, or being killed by the horde. Don´t tell me a survivalist like Joel would choose dead by the horde...
"But willingly giving out his name..."
See... You didn't paid attention. It was Tommy who give their names. And he does that when dealing with the horde, in a very stressful situation and when they had the upper hand (they are two male old guys and she is just a young women).
"They even told Abby about Jackson..."
Well, considering what we know about Jackson and how Jackson has grown over the years, it makes sense.
"But the game is 100% built on revenge."
Nup... The game is build 30% on revenge, 30% on redemption and 40% on grief/lost/love.
Ellie first journey is about blind rage, revenge, and blindness. Also in pain, sorrow and guilt.
Abby journey is about emptiness, lost,love, redemption and moving on with her life.
Ellie second journey is about acceptance, understanding, grief, love, redemption and moving on with her life.
I keep telling you, you missed a lot of the game story... and its not the first time I see this happen to some people.
"Ellie goes for revenge." "There was ZERO reason for Ellie to chase Abby again."
Ellie is unable to enjoy life with Dina and the baby. She is dying inside day after day. And this is not me assuming things, this is her mouth telling it. Also the diary is very important to understand Ellie state of mind.
So, when Tommy shows up and plays with her guilt she does what her mind tells her to do. To kill the monster of her dreams. Yet, her desire to kill this monster is not revenge, is the only way she can think on how to put her pain away.
"that is the irony of the horrible writing that is the final act."
Actually, the final act is one of the things I love most about this game. Ellie is able to find balance, to do the right thing, to accept Joel´s death, to accept his love and to give herself another chance to live. To me, that's a beauthifull ending.
Is the one of the best writing moments I ever saw in any videogame. And I´m 40 years...
"As for "agenda" only being for the extreme right."
On this game critic? No doubt about it...
"An Agenda to say the character is trans."
And Ellie is gay and Jesse is straight and Asian, and Owen is straight, and Isaac is black... people, just people... but I get it, the Abby as a trans theory was a missed shot, so let's focus on something else...
"But using it as a virtue signal is a horrible way to win brownie points."
It was never used as a virtue signal. It was a choice that led to some consequences. Especially in their society. Nothing more, nothing less.In fact, the biggest critic I hear about it, as you said, is that Lev as a trans have no real impact on the story. And that's a fact because he is just that, another character in this crazy world.
"No one be they male, female, trans, gay, and so on should be used as a check box to be praised for "inclusion" when that "inclusion" amounts to absolutely nothing."
Thats were we strongly disagree. I'm tired of "diversity to send a message" thing. What I love about this game is that diversity is just the reality of the world, it doesn't tries to lecture you nothing on those themes.
The characters of this game are not male, female, trans, gay, and so on, what they are is people with flaws and defects, in a harsh world, trying to find the lost humanity in their hearts.
@ezio899: "I wouldn't call LoU2 a masterpiece when it's split right down the middle with actual gamers and fans."
It is not the reaction that makes the game a masterpiece or not, what you are talking about is commercialization and sells. It is masterpiece because is a game that, from a narrative point of view has very little flaws, and from a technical point of view is the best game I can remember. Obviously, this is my opinion and everyone is free to think otherwise.
"overall just serve no point other than pushing an agenda"
I think we already surpassed the debate of "agenda". That is just a desperate claim from extreme right individuals without real understanding of this game.
"Lev being trans has nothing to do with anything and in a post-apocalyptic world, no one would care whatsoever."
And that's exactly the point. The game doesn't addresses trans debates because Lev is not there to make any point on that regard. Is just people and diversity living in the world. Once a biased view about him is lifted all you see is people, nothing more, nothing less...
"LoU2 literally screws up everything about Joel from the first game..."
Please explain if you can. I dare to say that this game shows more love for Joel in a few scenes that what TLOU1 does in all the game.
"ends up not even understanding the point behind the first game at all."
I´m sure you can explain to the person who defined the point behind the first game what that point is... a facepalm is not enough for your statement....
"Only for him to throw all that away the moment he meets Abby."
Please explain... He and Tommy saved a young women in distress. Now, considering the events that lead them to the "safe house" and how Tommy/Joel and Jackson deal with strangers. I would love to hear in what way Joel did something that drops his IQ to 0.
"But the game spends a lot of time dumbing Ellie down for a half-assed revenge plot that goes absolutely nowhere in the end."
Because this game is not about revenge. That plot is explored only in Ellie first journey... nothing more... You should replay the game again, you lost many things about the story...
"LoU2 effectively tries to demolish this bond just cuz Joel saved her life instead of killing her for a mere CHANCE at a cure."
Clearly you played a different game. If something, this game proves their bond is strong, as you can see in Ellie reaction to Joel death. She goes to the depths of hell trying to revenge his death.
Her pain is a constant reminder of her impotence to save him. She is unable to deal with his death and that makes her unable to live a normal life with the people she loves. And the person who bring her out of the dark is... yup... Joel...
You should replay the game, but now without biased eyes...
"But he forgets all of this in the first Act of LoU2."
The only way to stay in Jackson is to start living as a human being and not an animal. Precautions? Obviously. Not saving a person (young women) because helping a stranger may be dangerous? Sorry, but that Joel died a long time ago, way before TLOU2...
For the people who have read the books... How are you dealing with the character change in personality, emotions and image? Because I only played the games and it is painful to see some of these characters. Besides Geralt, it is grivious to see most of them playing as someone different...
@gamerbum: Well, when they do something like that they will lose most of their fan base... gameplay is good enough for most of us. But we are with them for the narrative... there are tons of game based mostly on the gameplay, so let them be good were they are good...
@dirtydyk: "All released or in production before Disney took over."
That's a debatable thing. To me the better MCU movie is Winter Soldier. And I put that movie at the same quality level as Dark Knight, which by my standards means it is awesome.
But most importantly, the majority of the people love those movies, it doesn't matters which phase we are talking about. And that happens because Disney (Let's face it... kevin feige) knows exactly what he is doing.
"At the end of Black Widow, i just looked at my friend and laughed."
Why do you laughed? I'm curious...
"Spiderman, Logan, Deadpool are produced by Sony."
Good for them. I like those movies a lot. I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Diversity is a good thing, that goes for Sony movies or the DC movies, and some other heroes movies (because thats what we are talking about). The Marvel formula works, even when does not work perfectly.
The simple fact that they made a universe were everything is in some form connected just shows their high level in storytelling, vision and determination. And that deserves praise.
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