Your right, Rasheed wasn't on the 08 Celtics. I stand corrected. So I'll replace him with James Posey, who had a better 3pt %(40%), better fg%, better rbs avg than Rasheed did in the playoffs. So yea, thanks, :shock:I'll take Posey. That was a better team anyway than this year. So I still say the Bulls may have not beaten that team under any rules.

I guess we have to disagree. I think you are not giving enough credit to the zone, and have mis-characterized it's effect. It was able to slow Lebron, Kobe and Wade, 3 of the best offensive players ever. 3 second rule or not, whether you can see it coming or not your're still running into a 2-3 man collapse of defensive players already established in position. You say as long as it "looked like you were in some sort of connection with your man", the problem is back then the other offensive players wouldn't "just wait near the lane", they would increase the space so the defender would get caught with an "illegal defense" call. So teams had to "time" when to send help. MJ, with that explosive 1st step (note compliment to MJ), blows by the first dude, defense rushes another 1 or 2 guys at MJ…too late, and anytime your running towards a great offensive player your're at a disadvantage/off balance and in danger of getting faked out of your shorts, which happens…..dunk! or acrobatic lay-up. Again, with the zone guys could already be established in position for the double or triple team. Go back and look at youtube video of that 08 Celtics/Lakers series. It's painfully obvious that Kobe, as good as he is with the ball, got boxed in regularly. That was great defense. The ability to play zone even gave Phoenix a better chance against the Lakers. (Oh yeah, I think the hand-check, tougher D in the 90's is over stated too, yeah some teams were rough on MJ early on, but as he got estabilshed you couoldn't touch him and you know it! ).

Yes, the Bulls didn't need to go to game 7 against those 6 teams, that's not surprising. But MJ did have bad closeout games so I don't think people should be so hard on Kobe because of his poor shooting.

NO WAY anybody will tell me THAT man would let THAT lead get blown on their home court in the NBA finals. NOT HAPPENING.No, not with his battle tested tough role players(Pippen/Rodman….etc), but it could very well happen if MJ had a sub-par game or 2nd half while playing with a bunch of soft, inexperienced, shell shocked teammates, against one of the best defenses in decades, 3 hof'ers…etc. That's where Kobe was at. I guess we'll disagree on this too but given the exact same circumstances I believe it could happen.

Lastly, if Pippen had the better series he should have been MVP, imo, hurt or not in the last game. But of course they would give it to MJ. AS for Rodman, I was quoting someone else's point (some sports writer) who felt strongly about Rodman's contribution in the Seattle series. The series went 6 games, MJ averaged some thing like 27pts (shooting 41%), 5+rbs, 4+ assists and 3 t.o.'s. Rodmans averaged 7.5pts, 13.7 rbs and was given credit by George Karl for winning 2 of those games where he had 20rbs(11 offensive) and 19rbs(11 offensive) along with his other stats ("borderline role player"…ooookkkk). But, yep, usually the offensive player will get MVP, fair or not but MJ didn't run away with that series, he had some bad games. I wouldn't call it laughable to consider Rodman either.

Alright, I'm done. You get the last word...unless you say something utterly ridiculous, like that 1st sentence awhile back....oh yea, you were not serious.....uh huh ;)

mont13

Mont13

Didn't feel like quoting that script you have, it would have taken up an entire page with one post. I think we are actually close to eye to eye on a lot of these things, however there are a couple points.

First, i think you are giving WAY too much credit to the zone D. The only difference between the zone and man to man when it comes to driving to the basket is that you "see" the players behind your man waiting for you earlier than in man to man. In man to man when they want to take a player out the game (whether jordan, kobe, lebron, etc), the other defenders collapse on him as soon as he makes that first move past his man, and the result is just like that of a zone. You just don't seeit as quickly. But here's a "COUNTER" for you, in fact it's a "COUNTER KNOCKOUT" lol. Back then they didn't have DEFENSIVE 3 SECONDS fouls, so even if you were in man to man, as long as it "looked" like you were in some sort of connection with your man, you could stand in that lane and wait as long as you wanted, and get away with it. Even with the zone, you can't do that today

As for the stats, NOBODY can play in that many finals games and not have a couple bad games, but Jordan's "bad" games never came with it all on the line. Part of that is he never let it get to game 7, but when his team "looked" against the ropes that's when he played his best. We all remember the 98 finals game 6. Pippen blew out his back and only played 20 minutes, and by all accounts would have been LUCKY to play at all in game 7, Jordan picked up the slack, dropped 45 (not a great shooting night, i think 15 - 35 from the field if i remember correctly) and they won

Next, yea you're right we don't know "for sure" that Jordan wouldn't have let his team blow a 25 point lead at home in the finals but let me give you an example of how "sure" i am he wouldn't. Sure I could win the powerball if i play, but lets be real, it aint gonna happen. That's how i feel about MJ in that situation. You and i can go back and forth on that all you want and we will "never know for sure" but there is NO WAY anybody will tell me THAT man would let THAT lead get blown on their home court in the NBA finals. NOT HAPPENING

One last point about the finals MVP's, the rodman comment is downright laughable. He was ben wallace or bruce bowen, a borderline role player who had an innate gift of rebounding for his size and playing irritating top notch hall of fame calibur defense. Infact i think he shoud get more consideration for the Hall of Fame cause he wasthat elite of a defender (as should ben wallace),but the bottom line is that he was their 5th option at ALL TIMES on offense. You aren't going to win a finals MVP if you can't score a LICK. As for pippen the ONLY time he was a legit contender for finals MVP was in 98 but once again that takes me to my previous point. He blew his back out at the end of that series and you know who took the team on his back and lead them to the title. It's possible that if you take ALL aspects of EVERY game of that series, you can argue Pippen had the better series, but the bottom line is that he was non existant for the most part in that final game (and game 7 if it went that far) due to injury, and MJ saved the day. You won't deny him MVP after that.

Oh yeah and Rasheed wasn't on the 08 Celtics.:D

Knock MJ, me???:shock: Nooo. I've said several times he one of the best and maybe the best ever, I just believe it's impossible to say.

I'm a counter-puncher. What I do is respond to what I consider to be unfair, inconistent, erroneous critcism ofKobe and his game and/or acomplishments in comparison to MJ. I'm not on a mission against MJ, and can't remember a time I just posted something negative about him just for the sake of it,mostly in reponse to something.

That Celtics D, '08, was GREAT and better than any MJ faced in his 6 finals appearances, would you agree with that? So, speaking in general, why would people expect Kobe to perform against that Celtic D as MJ did against Phoenix, Golden State, Portland Lakers, andUtah. Kobe would have killed them too, hand checking or not. Kobe's 2 finals losses was against some very, very good team defenses. MJ took 3-4 years to finally get by Detroit, I think given 3-4attempts Kobe would have gotten by Detroit/Boston too.

MJ era Teams couldhand check, the 2008 Celtics couldplay zone and collaspe on Kobe's drive attempts. Who could fairly say and measure which was tougher to play against? But Kobe usually endsup on the short end of that comparison with people saying "MJ woulda...". No, MJ would have gotten D'ed up too! For the record I think the hand checking thing is over blownand Kobe would have thrived in MJ's era as well. Yes there were some tough defensive teams in the 90's but there were some pansy's too, just like now.

Face it, with that first sentence especially, you thought you could slip one in, huh?;) And just for you, and you can qoute me ..."MJ, he ah'ight" ;)

mont13

Back to the main point. absolutely the celtics D was better than the FINALS teams (i'm sure you meant to say seattle and not golden state. if not i missed the joke. lol). But i definitely wouldn't have put it above the Pistons and prob not even the Knicks cause on top of being great defensive teams, they were flat out dirty. The rules today don't allow, even the best defensive teams, to be dirty. The prob with the Knicks was they SUCKED on offense. They didn't lose to the Bulls cause of their D, they lost cause both teams canceled each other out on D and the Knicks were left with Patrick Ewing as their go to guy on offense.Good luck with that.

And could kobe get by the Pistons given 3 attempts - NO, cause situations like that aren't about ONE player. You remember the "Jordan Rules". Basically an orchastrated hit for 48 minutes on one player and forcing someone else to beat them. Something like that would NEVER fly today. Anyway,MAYBE Kobe's "team" could. Once they got the heart and toughness. That's why LA lost to the Celtics. Yea they played great D, and yeah Kobe didn't play well, but they lost cause they got pushed around like little kids. I never "blamed" Kobe for losing that series (except game 4 cause if you are the best player on the team YOU CAN NOT let your team blow a 25 point lead on your home court in the NBA finals. CAN'T HAPPEN - PERIOD). 2 years later they improved "barely enough" to win (even though if perkins doesn't blow out his knee i'm not sure they do). But a win is a win, and they were tough enough. I didn't think Kobe played significantly better this year than then (hell he was 6 -24 from the field in game 7, which he would have never lived down if they lost), but his TEAM was better. They were tougher, they were hungrier, and they weren't scared. That's what pushed them over the edge and that's what ultimately pushed the Bulls over the Pistons

This is just my opinion and you don't have to agree, but if you take that Celtics team from 08 and throw them in the 80's and early 90's with those rules and their hunger, i'm not sure any team, with the exception of the 95-96 bulls would beat them in a best of 7 for one particular year. They would basically be a hungrier (cause none of them had ever won) version of the back to back championship pistons teams. HOWEVER, i am 99.9% (nothing is for certain) that ANY of the 6 championship Bulls teams would have beaten the 08 Celtics with the present day rules. And the reason why goes back to my original point. The Lakers were SOFT in that series - PERIOD. And people can say what they want about the Bulls, but NONE of those teams were soft. They had every bit the toughness and then some of the 08 Celtics and would never have gotten pushed around. That would leave Jordan, Pippen and whoever else was having a hot night VS Pierce, Allen and Garnett on offense. I'll take my chances with MJ and the bulls on that one

[QUOTE="sixringz1"][QUOTE="andyboiii"]has MJ ever beat a defensive team comparable to the Celtics Lakers lost against in the finals? The Pistons and Celtics in the late 80's were the only 2 teams that I could think of that always beat the bulls. The knicks were pretty physical too but they weren't that great of a team overall. mont13

OMG! I disagree with my homey sixringz on this, especially that first sentence. "Every team wasas good if not better than the Celtics D"...huh, what!!?? Oh, well, maybe I should give up defending Kobe and just enjoy the rest of his career. Kobe will never get his just due in this Jordan Jocking era. I'll say it again, as far as B'ball skills are concerned Kobe is just as good if not better than Michael Jordan. Comparisons of stats, accomplishments, rings...etc. can/will never be done fairly.

As for the Jordan jocking era, we've been over this for 2 years. You hate on that guy like he personally did something to you. You have no problem giving credit to other great players of all time, but when it comes to jordan it's always negative from you. If i would argue Magic Johnson is the best player ever i'm POSITIVE you wouldn't be on here quick to point out that he was an average, AT BEST, shooter, and a borderline liability on D, but since it's MJ i defend you will search high and low to find any part of his game to knock. I rarely, if ever, read anything where you say something good about MJ without having the "but" comment to follow. Check this forum. Half the people on here are either die hard laker/kobe fans or not old enough to have ever seen MJ play, or both, but yet they give him his due. All but you. Even with all the comparisons i've always said Kobe was a great player. For example i think he's a more consistant perimeter shooter than MJ. I've never knocked his basketball ability. But as for you and Jordan...that's a diff story. It almost feels as if it literally pains you to say ANYTHING good about the man

But it's all good, you know you're my man mont:D

has MJ ever beat a defensive team comparable to the Celtics Lakers lost against in the finals? The Pistons and Celtics in the late 80's were the only 2 teams that I could think of that always beat the bulls. The knicks were pretty physical too but they weren't that great of a team overall. andyboiii

[QUOTE="sixringz1"][QUOTE="BLBxLakers24"] Ok lets see if you can read. See theBOLD?Where does it say great?? LMAO.

You called Pierce a F but you just called him a Hall Of Famer? Lmao RIGHTTTTTTT!

Every player on that list is an All Star player.

And did you see even small fowards? And I said most guards you name will be POINT guards... YOU NAMED CHARLES BARKLEY! NOOO DUHHHH!!! Thats still just ONE player. I named 7 CERTAIN HoFers, and who knows how a few of them will end up, and thats not even naming Point guards!

And NO, we are talking about when MJ dominated the League.. HE WAS NO WHERE CLOSEto dominating the 80s. Those players, Bird, Magic, Isiah, Dumars where long gone. NICE TRY tho.

Thats what you get for talking to someone like a child, and thinking everything you say is right.

[QUOTE="M_1_A_M_I"]

[QUOTE="BLBxLakers24"]

Kobe played in a weaker league?? LMAO The 90s was BIG MAN DOMINATED! MJ went against what GREAT 2 guards, even Small fowards in the 90s?? You had Reggie Miller? Andjust about EVERY guard you name will bea POINT guard.

90s big men, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Malone, Kemp, Robinson etc

The great guards he played against were in the 80s.. Last time I checked.. 91 92 93 96 97 98 is when he won rings.

Let me see what Guards(perimeter players)Kobe has had comp with.

Tmac, AI, Allen, Pierce, Ginobli, Roy, LeBron, Wade, Carter, Johnson, Miller, Artest,Hamilton, Mello, Butler, and im not even going to name point guards.. Those along with others are all 20+ppg players, ALL STAR players, even champions Kobe has had to go up against almost EVERY night.

BLBxLakers24

You called Pierce a F but you just called him a Hall Of Famer? Lmao RIGHTTTTTTT!

Every player on that list is an All Star player.

And did you see even small fowards? And I said most guards you name will be POINT guards... YOU NAMED CHARLES BARKLEY! NOOO DUHHHH!!! Thats still just ONE player. I named 7 CERTAIN HoFers, and who knows how a few of them will end up, and thats not even naming Point guards!

And NO, we are talking about when MJ dominated the League.. HE WAS NO WHERE CLOSEto dominating the 80s. Those players, Bird, Magic, Isiah, Dumars where long gone. NICE TRY tho.

Thats what you get for talking to someone like a child, and thinking everything you say is right.

If people want to say MJ - cool. If people wanna say kobe - cool. It doesn't make me lose any sleep. Just make sure everybody has their facts right and not just assumptions

No, winning one championship against a particular team doesn't mean anything. Hell i'll make the argument that beating THAT celtics team who beat them 2 years earlier is more significant. Plus who's to say Miami will be that great to begin with. Who's playing D for them? It takes more than just rings, otherwise Bill Russell would be hands down the best player ever. Jordan was ALWAYS the primary option, kobe wasn't, Kobe has 1 mvp, Jordan had 5, Kobe has 2 finals mvps, jordan had 6, Jordan NEVER failed when he got to the finals,Kobe has - twice,Jordan won defensive player of the year, kobe didn't,etc. Jordan dominated his era in a way Kobe never will. There was NEVER any doubt who the best player was during Jordan's era, but for Kobe's era you had Shaq as the number one guy in the leaguein the late 90's early 2000's (during Lakers 3 peat) and over the last 2-3 years its been the Kobe vs Lebron debate. The only statistics kobe will beat jordan in are longevity ones (ie., more points scored, although Jordan's ppg is SIGNIFICANTLY higher). Kobe has played roughly 30 less games, TOTAL, including playoffs, thus far in his career than Jordan played in his WHOLE career. From this point on, meaning All Star games,All nba teams, etc.,it's all longevity.

careerERA of 7.50 in Texas Stadium. Worst of any ballpark he's ever pitched in. Don't think all the sudden everything will go fine now. He'll be better than 7.50 of course, but he obviously struggles in that park with the heat and how the ball carries seeing as how he's a contact pitcher. Look at John Lackey. His career ERA at Fenway was near 6.00. It shouldn't shock anyone he's getting lit up this yr. You can argue numbers if it's only a couple of starts, but when it's a continuous thing, the numbers don't lie

not a good fit. I know he's beloved in LA, so this may hurt some hearts, but he's a system pg. He excels in the triangle because in THAT offense you don't have to do what the typical pg does. You don't have to break down defenses, penetrate to the rim and be an excellent passer. He is none of those things. That is why when he left for golden state he didn't succeed. And any success he had at Utah was when he was on the court at the SAME TIME as deron williams, so he could let him do the pg stuff and fisher could just hit the open shots. Unless the guy has become delusional, he knows where he needs to be for his skill set to be maximized