[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"][QUOTE="T_P_O"] Not agreeing with your view =/= being undemocratic Calling the BNP a racist party, that should not be allowed to exist is UNDEMOCRATIC. No it isn't. You dont know what democracy means. One, they call themselves racist. quote: 'we are 100% racist, yes' - that was from their deputy leader. Two, all KINDS of parties are denied official recognition on the voting ballot all the time. If you advocate murder, you're not allowed to be a political party. If you advocate making women stay at home and be housewives you cant be a political party. If the BNP actually wrote down their real policies in their manifesto, they wouldn't be allowed to be a political party either. You seem to think that democracy means that ANY and ALL views are legitimate. That is not the case. I apologise for that statement as that was wrong yes i meant to say " saying the BNP should not be allowed to exist is undemocratic. But that does not change my view that: I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people.
[QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"] They are against immigration and for deporting anyone who isn't white back to their native country, even if their family has lived in Britain for generations. That would be a bit much....... Well they've said time and again that people can stay if they're willing to accept that the British people will come first "British jobs for British people". If they've lived there all their lives, they are British people...
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="fenwickhotmail"] Does that mean the Royal Family must be departed too, then?fenwickhotmail
Wait...the Royal Family isn't white? They're of German descent - this doesnt fall in the BNP's 'Native British'.I'm not sure how they arrived at that. The UK was Celtic and then Anglo Saxon....ie Germanic.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="fenwickhotmail"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Wait...the Royal Family isn't white? They're of German descent - this doesnt fall in the BNP's 'Native British'.I'm not sure how they arrived at that. The UK was first Celtic and then Anglo Saxon....ie Germanic. Very, VERY true. I shall leave at this point.
I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people.Same_Jeans_On
So if serial killers band together to advocate for the right to murder, their political party would be valid by this reasoning? Ad absurdum, I know, but just checking
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] I apologise for that statement as that was wrong yes i meant to say " saying the BNP should not be allowed to exist is undemocratic. But that does not change my view that: I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people. I understand perfectly well what democracy is. It is not an agenda which i, individually, see as being evil it is an agenda which can be objectively and factually regarded as evil. Again your error is in thinking that any view should be legitimately recognised in government. That is not the case. Democracy seeks to protect the views of the electorate, but there are obvious common-sense limits to this. If your party advocates the legalisation of paedophilia you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. If your party advocates the enslaving of children you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. Not every view should be represented in parliament. Racist views included.
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] That would be a bit much....... Well they've said time and again that people can stay if they're willing to accept that the British people will come first "British jobs for British people". If they've lived there all their lives, they are British people... How can they be British if they or their families were not born here?
[QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"] Well they've said time and again that people can stay if they're willing to accept that the British people will come first "British jobs for British people". If they've lived there all their lives, they are British people... How can they be British if they or their families were not born here? That makes no-one British then. I will actually leave now.
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"]I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people.xaos
So if serial killers band together to advocate for the right to murder, their political party would be valid by this reasoning? Ad absurdum, I know, but just checking If a sizeable proportion of the British people were serial killers? Then yes I would see this as fair. Unfortunately or rather Fortunately this is not the case.
Hmmm, out of interest mushroom, I am a Colombian born German who is currently studying Biochemistry in a prestigious UK university among a large proportion of (as you like to say) non-Brittish people. If I were to stay in this country for several more years and gain citizenship, would you want me deported?
And if not, would you want many of my non-brittish colleagues deported if they were to also stay in the UK?
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"] Well they've said time and again that people can stay if they're willing to accept that the British people will come first "British jobs for British people".MushroomWig
If they've lived there all their lives, they are British people... How can they be British if they or their families were not born here?
I'm 1/4 English, so if my family moves back to Britain, would I be British?
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] I apologise for that statement as that was wrong yes i meant to say " saying the BNP should not be allowed to exist is undemocratic. But that does not change my view that: I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people. I understand perfectly well what democracy is. It is not an agenda which i, individually, see as being evil it is an agenda which can be objectively and factually regarded as evil. Again your error is in thinking that any view should be legitimately recognised in government. That is not the case. Democracy seeks to protect the views of the electorate, but there are obvious common-sense limits to this. If your party advocates the legalisation of paedophilia you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. If your party advocates the enslaving of children you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. Not every view should be represented in parliament. Racist views included. Not that I wish to get involved in your argument but democracy is basically a form of government which puts the power with the people.
Hmmm, out of interest mushroom, I am a Colombian born German who is currently studying Biochemistry in a prestigious UK university among a large proportion of (as you like to say) non-Brittish people. If I were to stay in this country for several more years and gain citizenship, would you want me deported?
And if not, would you want many of my non-brittish colleagues deported if they were to also stay in the UK?
skelebull3000
Nah you can stay if you want, you just have to sit on the back of the bus ;)
[QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"] Well they've said time and again that people can stay if they're willing to accept that the British people will come first "British jobs for British people". If they've lived there all their lives, they are British people... How can they be British if they or their families were not born here? They become naturalized citizens.
I'm not sure how they arrived at that. The UK was Celtic and then Anglo Saxon....ie Germanic.
Ninja-Hippo
Germanic tribes isn't the same thing as literally being from the modern nation of Germany. That's where the current royal family descend from. If you go back far enough......it sure is. Much of Europe was Germanic at one time.....
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] If a sizeable proportion of the British people were serial killers? Then yes I would see this as fair. Unfortunately or rather Fortunately this is not the case. Well, to put it bluntly, the way you see things is not the way it actually is. I respect that that is your view, but that is not how democracy works and therefore your argument that people against the BNP are being 'undemocratic' is faulty, as it is based on your own ideas of how democracy SHOULD work, not how it actually works.
Hmmm, out of interest mushroom, I am a Colombian born German who is currently studying Biochemistry in a prestigious UK university among a large proportion of (as you like to say) non-Brittish people. If I were to stay in this country for several more years and gain citizenship, would you want me deported?
And if not, would you want many of my non-brittish colleagues deported if they were to also stay in the UK?
FrostyPhantasm
Nah you can stay if you want, you just have to sit on the back of the bus ;) Or I could hide him under my floorboards if things get too crazy.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] If you go back far enough......it sure is. Much of Europe was Germanic at one time..... No but anglo-saxon is not the same thing as the modern nation of germany is what i'm saying. A germanic tribe does not = germany. Therefore a German person is not technically British because britains descend from a germanic tribe, if you follow me.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="xaos"] If they've lived there all their lives, they are British people... How can they be British if they or their families were not born here? They become naturalized citizens. Which would change if the BNP ever came into power.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] I apologise for that statement as that was wrong yes i meant to say " saying the BNP should not be allowed to exist is undemocratic. But that does not change my view that: I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people. I understand perfectly well what democracy is. It is not an agenda which i, individually, see as being evil it is an agenda which can be objectively and factually regarded as evil. Again your error is in thinking that any view should be legitimately recognised in government. That is not the case. Democracy seeks to protect the views of the electorate, but there are obvious common-sense limits to this. If your party advocates the legalisation of paedophilia you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. If your party advocates the enslaving of children you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. Not every view should be represented in parliament. Racist views included. You say legislation which advocates paedophilia or the enslaving of children. But I think you will find that a very small percentage if any people would support such legislation and this would not be enough for them to have a candidate be elected to parliament. Do you have any knowledge of how Voting systems work? If A party represents a view that a large proportion of the British people agree with then they should receive representation in Parliament, if they gain enough support and votes to win a seat. That my friend is Democracy...
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] I apologise for that statement as that was wrong yes i meant to say " saying the BNP should not be allowed to exist is undemocratic. But that does not change my view that: I don't think you really understand what democracy is... You call it "an evil agenda" yet you should be saying an agenda whcih you see as being evil. And don't get me wrong, I believe your view should also recieve representation in politics. But the constant slandering of the BNP is no fair as this is a political part which reflects the views of a large number of the British People. Democracy is the idea that the people govern themselves by electing people they believe can represent them and fairly reflect their views. The BNP do this for many people. I understand perfectly well what democracy is. It is not an agenda which i, individually, see as being evil it is an agenda which can be objectively and factually regarded as evil. Again your error is in thinking that any view should be legitimately recognised in government. That is not the case. Democracy seeks to protect the views of the electorate, but there are obvious common-sense limits to this. If your party advocates the legalisation of paedophilia you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. If your party advocates the enslaving of children you obviously wont be allowed to stand for office. Not every view should be represented in parliament. Racist views included. Not that I wish to get involved in your argument but democracy is basically a form of government which puts the power with the people. But if a majority votes to subdue a minority, how is that outcome democratic?
[QUOTE="NSR34GTR"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"] Could you define exactly what "truly British" is? If generations of your family were Born here. how many generations? As far back as possible.
Do you concede then, Mushroom, that the BNP are racist and that they do want non-white people to be deported? You argued otherwise earlier yet i've given you quotes from the BNP themselves which admit these facts.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] If you go back far enough......it sure is. Much of Europe was Germanic at one time..... No but anglo-saxon is not the same thing as the modern nation of germany is what i'm saying. A germanic tribe does not = germany. Therefore a German person is not technically British because britains descend from a germanic tribe, if you follow me. I didn't say a British person was German....I said they are Germanic and rather of the same group back in the day. Heck.....even English came from the Germanic tongue. Sorry to tell you...but you are basically the same eithnic background that I am.....part Celt....part Germanic. HA.:P
Do you concede then, Mushroom, that the BNP are racist and that they do want non-white people to be deported? You argued otherwise earlier yet i've given you quotes from the BNP themselves which admit these facts. Ninja-Hippo
It doesn't change the fact that I'm voting for them, call me a racist if you like but I'm not, their policies regarding defence and imagration are what gets my attention. I mean for all you know Gordon Brown is a racist, how can we be sure he's not? Just because he says so? How can we know when anyone tells the truth anymore?
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] You say legislation which advocates paedophilia or the enslaving of children. But I think you will find that a very small percentage if any people would support such legislation and this would not be enough for them to have a candidate be elected to parliament. Do you have any knowledge of how Voting systems work? If A party represents a view that a large proportion of the British people agree with then they should receive representation in Parliament, if they gain enough support and votes to win a seat. That my friend is Democracy... This is where you policy doesn't make sense though. You're saying that any view, no matter how awful, HAS to be represented in parliament but only if a certain number of people support it. So if just a few people support a terrible view, it should be ignored. So on the one hand you're in favor of absolute democracy in the form of representing ANYTHING, no matter how abhorrent, but then at the same time you're in favor of limited democracy in that you'll only recognise something is a certain number of people all share the same belief. It's contradictory. That my friend, aint democracy at all. Certainly not in this country. Also, how voting systems work has nothing to do with anything. :roll:
[QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="NSR34GTR"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"] If generations of your family were Born here. how many generations? As far back as possible. So you support the idea of legislation requiring only Brits to live in the country...but can't say definitively what being British means?? :lol: This my friends, is why racis-sorry, "nationalistic" political parties are absolute jokes.
[QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"] How can they be British if they or their families were not born here? They become naturalized citizens. Which would change if the BNP ever came into power. All the more reason to not vote BNP. Ethnic nationalism is a completely arbitrary concept.
Do you concede then, Mushroom, that the BNP are racist and that they do want non-white people to be deported? You argued otherwise earlier yet i've given you quotes from the BNP themselves which admit these facts. Ninja-Hippo
I think you need a happy medium. Not limiting due to race....but not losing your identity to outside forces either.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Do you concede then, Mushroom, that the BNP are racist and that they do want non-white people to be deported? You argued otherwise earlier yet i've given you quotes from the BNP themselves which admit these facts. MushroomWig
It doesn't change the fact that I'm voting for them, call me a racist if you like but I'm not, their policies regarding defence and imagration are what gets my attention. I mean for all you know Gordon Brown is a racist, how can we be sure he's not? Just because he says so? How can we know when anyone tells the truth anymore? But you KNOW that the party you're voting for is racist, and that they advocate a policy of 'every single one must go'. Therefore, you are voting for a party which would have me and my family deported, even though we are just as british as you or anyone else, and you're ok with that. Which i find just abhorrent. Here's another BNP quote for you, where they were asked what their stance is regarding black british citizens. "If you raise a dog in a stable it's not a horse. There's no such thing as a black british person.' Comparing black people to dogs and whites to horses. You're voting for these people.
This thread has gone too far, you guys can never change my mind about voting for them. Culture is essential for all countries and the BNP are the only ones who can promise to keep our culture British.
I'm done. :)
MushroomWig
Yeah, and I'm willing to bet that I, a 19 year-old Californian musician, knows more about your country's culture than you do. Clearly not, although you like to think you know more than everyone in the world. Well, I'm not voting for the party widely associated with racist ideology, I'm not a Truther, and I don't refer to the composer of "The Messiah" as a "writer."
Hmmm, out of interest mushroom, I am a Colombian born German who is currently studying Biochemistry in a prestigious UK university among a large proportion of (as you like to say) non-Brittish people. If I were to stay in this country for several more years and gain citizenship, would you want me deported?
And if not, would you want many of my non-brittish colleagues deported if they were to also stay in the UK?
cjek
Nah you can stay if you want, you just have to sit on the back of the bus ;) Or I could hide him under my floorboards if things get too crazy. Give them a diary so they can write about the great Britain oppression until Germany came in and freed its people.
[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"]It is clear that this thread is full of people who are undemocratic and do not believe that everyone's views should be given fair representation in Government.Same_Jeans_On
Not agreeing with your view =/= being undemocratic Calling the BNP a racist party, that should not be allowed to exist is UNDEMOCRATIC.Calling anybody, anything and expressing an opinion whatever that opinion is, is perfectly democratic.
[QUOTE="MushroomWig"] Actually if you watched Question Time Nick Griffin said time and again that they can stay as long as they understand and follow the British way of life.MushroomWig
Describe what you mean by the "British way of life", and why "they" don't currently follow it....
Either relgiously or culturally, people come to this country and then demand that the rules be changed to suit their way of life. That has to stop. So by being an Atheist, I'm not following the British way of life, religiously?
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] You say legislation which advocates paedophilia or the enslaving of children. But I think you will find that a very small percentage if any people would support such legislation and this would not be enough for them to have a candidate be elected to parliament. Do you have any knowledge of how Voting systems work? If A party represents a view that a large proportion of the British people agree with then they should receive representation in Parliament, if they gain enough support and votes to win a seat. That my friend is Democracy... This is where you policy doesn't make sense though. You're saying that any view, no matter how awful, HAS to be represented in parliament but only if a certain number of people support it. So if just a few people support a terrible view, it should be ignored. So on the one hand you're in favor of absolute democracy in the form of representing ANYTHING, no matter how abhorrent, but then at the same time you're in favor of limited democracy in that you'll only recognise something is a certain number of people all share the same belief. It's contradictory. That my friend, aint democracy at all. Certainly not in this country. Also, how voting systems work has nothing to do with anything. :roll: There is nothing contradictory about my view. Voting systems have everything to do with how we receive representation. I am in favour of fair democracy, whereby if a sizeable enough number of people have a view--no matter how awful you may see it as being-- then they are entitled to representation in parliament and if they can muster the votes should be allowed a MP, MSP or MEP in parliament representing their views. The BNP have 2 MEPs because people voted for them. That is fair democracy.;)
Hmmm, out of interest mushroom, I am a Colombian born German who is currently studying Biochemistry in a prestigious UK university among a large proportion of (as you like to say) non-Brittish people. If I were to stay in this country for several more years and gain citizenship, would you want me deported?
And if not, would you want many of my non-brittish colleagues deported if they were to also stay in the UK?
cjek
Nah you can stay if you want, you just have to sit on the back of the bus ;) Or I could hide him under my floorboards if things get too crazy.
If that party ever gets elected, I'll either form a militia or run to the US -_-'
Another Nick Griffin quote; 'All blacks will be repatriated, regardless of whether or not they were born here.' 'Any BNP members should refrain from discussing black or asian britains, simply because no such things exist.'
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"][QUOTE="T_P_O"] Not agreeing with your view =/= being undemocraticTeenaged
Calling the BNP a racist party, that should not be allowed to exist is UNDEMOCRATIC.Calling anybody, anything and expressing an opinion whatever that opinion is, is perfectly democratic. I am aware of that I apologised for my mistaken statement earlier, if you actually read the thread you would realise this.
Another Nick Griffin quote; 'All blacks will be repatriated, regardless of whether or not they were born here.' 'Any BNP members should refrain from discussing black or asian britains, simply because no such things exist.'Ninja-Hippo
Just like no black or white Japanese person exists, what's so bad about this?
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] There is nothing contradictory about my view. Voting systems have everything to do with how we receive representation. I am in favour of fair democracy, whereby if a sizeable enough number of people have a view--no matter how awful you may see it as being-- then they are entitled to representation in parliament and if they can muster the votes should be allowed a MP, MSP or MEP in parliament representing their views. The BNP have 2 MEPs because people voted for them. That is fair democracy.;) The BNP have 2 MEPs because they lie to people to coax them into voting for them. ;) What you speak of is not a fair democracy at all. And like it or not, that isn't how democracy works in this country. If it did, the Legalisation of Paedophilia party would be on the ballot. It aint though. And i for one am perfectly happy with that.
[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="MushroomWig"][QUOTE="PannicAtack"] Yeah, and I'm willing to bet that I, a 19 year-old Californian musician, knows more about your country's culture than you do. Clearly not, although you like to think you know more than everyone in the world. Well, I'm not voting for the party widely associated with racist ideology, I'm not a Truther, and I don't refer to the composer of "The Messiah" as a "writer." Oh wait, I forgot, Handel isn't British by your barometer. Alright then, how about Arthur Sullivan, the composer of "The Mikado?"
[QUOTE="Same_Jeans_On"] Calling the BNP a racist party, that should not be allowed to exist is UNDEMOCRATIC.Same_Jeans_On
Calling anybody, anything and expressing an opinion whatever that opinion is, is perfectly democratic. I am aware of that I apologised for my mistaken statement earlier, if you actually read the thread you would realise this.I read it after I responded. Sorry.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Another Nick Griffin quote; 'All blacks will be repatriated, regardless of whether or not they were born here.' 'Any BNP members should refrain from discussing black or asian britains, simply because no such things exist.' Is it your mission in live to make as many people anti-BNP as possible? We don't need post after post of quotes, the people who already hate the BNP do not need more reasons to hate them.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Another Nick Griffin quote; 'All blacks will be repatriated, regardless of whether or not they were born here.' 'Any BNP members should refrain from discussing black or asian britains, simply because no such things exist.'AHUGECAT
Just like no black or white Japanese person exists, what's so bad about this?
Just a cherry on top of an already hilarious thread.
British is a nationality as well as an ethnicity, as is Japanese. You can be both, or just one of them and still be considered "British" or "Japanese"
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