British police arrest 6 men for burning Quran

[QUOTE="p2250"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

I didn't realise this was a thread about Muslim extremism

My point is....

I thought this was a thread discussing english law and how "Barbaric" we are. Not muslim extremism and racist, hate mongering pastors from florida!

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]I never said that every American is afraid of being shot, I just tried to draw a parallel where security and freedoms meet closer to home for you (what, with you being American and all).

I think the point here is that, for whatever reason, these men's actions were deemed a threat to public safety. Like I say, I don't know all the facts of this case. If you want to draw the conclusion that this threat was all about fear of a violent Muslim backlash, that's your leap of faith.

jimmyjammer69

What kind of "free" country arrests you for burning a book? Who cares what kind of backlash it causes? That is completely beside the point. What is wise to do and what we are legally free to do are two separate things.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Oh so it was about the fear of Buddhist backlash?LJS9502_basic

What kind of "free" country arrests you for burning a book? Who cares what kind of backlash it causes? That is completely beside the point. What is wise to do and what we are legally free to do are two separate things.

BMD004

The kind of country that believe "free" includes the freedom to practice your religion without molestation

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

What kind of "free" country arrests you for burning a book? Who cares what kind of backlash it causes? That is completely beside the point. What is wise to do and what we are legally free to do are two separate things.

TroubleMaker411

The kind of country that believe "free" includes the freedom to practice your religion without molestation

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]Huh? I can see a case for a security concern over the hard right more than among Muslims. I don't know if you agree, but Muslim citizens have as much a right to feel secure as Christians or anyone else. Until I hear news about the crime they were charged with (could be arson for all I know), I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.

jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

What kind of "free" country arrests you for burning a book? Who cares what kind of backlash it causes? That is completely beside the point. What is wise to do and what we are legally free to do are two separate things.

TroubleMaker411

The kind of country that believe "free" includes the freedom to practice your religion without molestation

If the arrest was out of the possibility of creating civil violence and unrest, then I don't support the arrest. Why? Because people can choose how they want to react. If they choose violence, then they made their choice. People should not have to walk on egg shells just because someone else is a little too sensitive. Laws should never force someone to do such a thing. We should be able to make that choice for ourselves, whether we want to choose to respect a certain religion/culture or not.

If the arrest was out of public safety issue in relevance to having outdoor fires/something burning in an urban area, then I do support the arrest. Why? Because it's a legitimate public safety issue that isn't about hurting someones feelings or limiting one's right to express an opinion.

Free speech here in the US allowed civil rights activists to gain the rights they should have been enjoying in the first place, but were in many ways denied in certain parts of the country. Martin Luther King's protests surely incited hatred and violence, but does that mean he should have been arrested because someone who disagreed decided to get violent? The only thing I can really vouch against MLK is his how some of rallies and protests were executed. As with so many, they could bring about a real halt to the normal daily activities of the common citizenry who just wants to get to work, go home or do whatever. Your right to protest isn't a right to be a public obstruction.

You're right, there may well have been no direct threat to Muslims in the burning itself. However, the media have got hold of this story, and the reaction to the way it's already being inflated, before the facts are in, that's what could trigger a threat to innocent people.jimmyjammer69

We have laws against inciting racial hatred.

Anyone can say or do what they like, so long as it doesn't impede the rights of others. Burning the Qur'an and broadcasting it on YouTube for the sole reason of antagonising the Muslim community, both in this country and internationally, is certainly doing that, while at the same time compromising the safety of the public.

broken_bass_bin

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]

Burning a book or calling someone a name isn't putting anyone's life at risk. People that riot over the act are. It's those people who overreact that should be arrested (if they physically harm someone).

Espada12

If you know it will cause people to riot then you arrest the source of the problem, not the effect.

Where do you draw the line? Just because something causes people to riot doesn't mean the riotors are in the right. People could riot because they don't want minorities moving in to their neighborhood. Should the minority be arrested for that? The purpose of rights is to protect people who may not be well liked or who's ideas may not be well recieved, and without thyat right, we would not have progress.

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

What kind of "free" country arrests you for burning a book? Who cares what kind of backlash it causes? That is completely beside the point. What is wise to do and what we are legally free to do are two separate things.

LJS9502_basic

The kind of country that believe "free" includes the freedom to practice your religion without molestation

But through their actions they are promoting hate towards another religion.

Is it really so wrong that we have laws that don't tolerate religious hate?

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Burning a quran is not the same as attacking individuals. There is no threat to Muslims with this action. Now were they to threaten the people...that is a different story and should entail arrest. But not burning a book.BMD004

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]You're right, there may well have been no direct threat to Muslims in the burning itself. However, the media have got hold of this story, and the reaction to the way it's already being inflated, before the facts are in, that's what could trigger a threat to innocent people.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="broken_bass_bin"]

We have laws against inciting racial hatred.

Anyone can say or do what they like, so long as it doesn't impede the rights of others. Burning the Qur'an and broadcasting it on YouTube for the sole reason of antagonising the Muslim community, both in this country and internationally, is certainly doing that, while at the same time compromising the safety of the public.

SkyWard20

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

The kind of country that believe "free" includes the freedom to practice your religion without molestation

TroubleMaker411

But through their actions thay are promoting hate towards another religion.

Is it really so wrong that we have laws that don't tolerate religious hate?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]You're right, there may well have been no direct threat to Muslims in the burning itself. However, the media have got hold of this story, and the reaction to the way it's already being inflated, before the facts are in, that's what could trigger a threat to innocent people.GazaAli

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]You're right, there may well have been no direct threat to Muslims in the burning itself. However, the media have got hold of this story, and the reaction to the way it's already being inflated, before the facts are in, that's what could trigger a threat to innocent people.LJS9502_basic

Anyway, I've got to go. It's been fun :) Hopefully catch you later on this one.

No one has infringed on the right to practice religion.:|LJS9502_basic

But through their actions thay are promoting hate towards another religion.

Is it really so wrong that we have laws that don't tolerate religious hate?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]You're right, there may well have been no direct threat to Muslims in the burning itself. However, the media have got hold of this story, and the reaction to the way it's already being inflated, before the facts are in, that's what could trigger a threat to innocent people.jimmyjammer69

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]

Link.

While I think the six menarekind of ignorant and backwards for burning the Qurans, I can't believe you can be arrested for doing something like that in England.Is English lawreally that barbaric?

Fried_Shrimp

Seriously?

Burning the Quran is a sign of hate. It's a threatening act and is ****d as a hate crime. I don't think there is anything wrong with not tolerating hate crimes. English Law is far from barbaric, we care for our public's safety, how is that barbaric?

When did I say the USA wasn't barbaric? It often is, but that's not the point of this thread. This thread is about free speech and the right to demonstrate.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]You're right, there may well have been no direct threat to Muslims in the burning itself. However, the media have got hold of this story, and the reaction to the way it's already being inflated, before the facts are in, that's what could trigger a threat to innocent people.jimmyjammer69

Much of what the US is doing as far as terrorism goes is not towards US citizens, so habeas corpus could be considered null and void in the government's eyes in relation to non-citizens and suspected terrorist activities.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Could is not a reason for arrest though. A crime is either a crime or it is not. A government shouldn't say something "might" happen from an action...otherwise the jails will be full. Anyone can react violently to the slightest provocation.

LJS9502_basic

Maybe you need to recheck this. As far as I know, there have been a lot of unjustified arrests in the US and the UK. Check BBC's documentary Generation Jihad, it basically talks about the UK's anti-terrorism program(forgot the name). The documentary showed many cases of unjustified arrests and abusing the authority of police.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GazaAli"] isn't this what anti-terrorism activities around the world are about? Including Iraq war?GazaAli

Maybe you need to recheck this. As far as I know, there have been a lot of unjustified arrests in the US and the UK. Check BBC's documentary Generation Jihad, it basically talks about the UK's anti-terrorism program(forgot the name). The documentary showed many cases of unjustified arrests and abusing the authority of police.

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]

Link.

While I think the six menarekind of ignorant and backwards for burning the Qurans, I can't believe you can be arrested for doing something like that in England.Is English lawreally that barbaric?

Espada12

English law puts public safety above all else, if that's barbaric then I'm conan.

.. Seriously.. I can't believe you use this flawed logic.. We should also cut all forms of the first amendment.. It would be safer for the public.. We should also make our elected officials all non elected security forces, it would be safer for the public.. We should also ban pre-marital sex, all drugs.. It would be safer for the public.. Perhapes you should read or re-read 1984, because this logic fails hard.

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

BMD004

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]

What's barbaric is trampling on the human right of self expression and freedom of speech.

Espada12

Well they get trampled, whoop tee doo. Public safety > individual rights.

Thats a insult to every one in history who fought for independence of their nation.. The founding fathers of the US must be rolling over in the grave, seeing as they put the entire public at risk with the Revolutionary war for personal liberty and the right to govern themselves.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

TroubleMaker411

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

TroubleMaker411

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

TroubleMaker411

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

No seeing as the US upholds personal freedoms to the point of allowing groups like the KKK to march and spew their rhetoric... Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve NEITHER... Franklin seems to have it right here.

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

GazaAli

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

I just burned some roast beef today. Somebody better arrest me because vegans are probably gonna be pissed.

So basically they arrested the guy who burned a Quran because other people got mad at him. Making people mad does not = a crime.

LJS9502_basic

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

Burning the St George's Cross is absolutely NOT fine.

And anyone that retaliates in such a way will also be arrested because it promotes the same reaction as burning a Quran!

Yes, any action can cause a negative reaction. I agree to this.

But any action that is DESIGNED to promote a violent negative reaction should be treated as a criminal act.

These people were not simply stating their opinion to the people in the pub they were hanging in, but butting it up for the world to see is blatently there to incite a negative, possibly violent, reaction

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

LJS9502_basic

lets not get jumpy and take things out of context. All I'm saying that rather complaining about the consequences, you can prevent the original incident. Get it? For example, when Muslims got all offended because of Denmark and those pictures, I was frustrated because of Muslims rioting like idiots and some of them making death threats...etc and because of Denmark insulting a bunch of people for no apparent reason.

Burning the St George's Cross is absolutely NOT fine.

And anyone that retaliates in such a way will also be arrested because it promotes the same reaction as burning a Quran!

Yes, any action can cause a negative reaction. I agree to this.

But any action that is DESIGNED to promote a violent negative reaction should be treated as a criminal act.

These people were not simply stating their opinion to the people in the pub they were hanging in, but butting it up for the world to see is blatently there to incite a negative, possibly violent, reaction

TroubleMaker411

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

TroubleMaker411

Burning the St George's Cross is absolutely NOT fine.

And anyone that retaliates in such a way will also be arrested because it promotes the same reaction as burning a Quran!

Yes, any action can cause a negative reaction. I agree to this.

But any action that is DESIGNED to promote a violent negative reaction should be treated as a criminal act.

These people were not simply stating their opinion to the people in the pub they were hanging in, but butting it up for the world to see is blatently there to incite a negative, possibly violent, reaction

Define further how tis is different from any other protest? If this was legally sanctioned and everything was abided by the law.. These guys should not have been arrested.. I suppose the US should arrest all the West Boro Baptist Cult that protest dead soldiers funnerals? But alas they don't, and any one who attacks them is under the law.. Yet again this is absurd, if they were following all the rules of a protest exactly what the law states.. There is no reason to arrest these men.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Who determines reason? Most people do have a reason for their actions. We may not agree with or like it...but they have one.LJS9502_basic

lets not get jumpy and take things out of context. All I'm saying that rather complaining about the consequences, you can prevent the original incident. Get it? For example, when Muslims got all offended because of Denmark and those pictures, I was frustrated because of Muslims rioting like idiots and some of them making death threats...etc and because of Denmark insulting a bunch of people for no apparent reason.

GazaAli

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

Burning the St George's Cross is absolutely NOT fine.

And anyone that retaliates in such a way will also be arrested because it promotes the same reaction as burning a Quran!

Yes, any action can cause a negative reaction. I agree to this.

But any action that is DESIGNED to promote a violent negative reaction should be treated as a criminal act.

These people were not simply stating their opinion to the people in the pub they were hanging in, but butting it up for the world to see is blatently there to incite a negative, possibly violent, reaction

LJS9502_basic

Why?

I don't feel any less free than i did when i lived in the US

I feel safer knowing that if someone attacks my religion (or whatever) then they can't hide behind "freedom of speech" and not be dealt with by the law.

While i agree that freedom of speech is a great thing, do you really believe that blatent hate mongering (whether it be religious, racial, or against people with blonde hair) should be allowed, even protected when the people commiting such acts are doing it to promote a violent reaction?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

The point isn't that they burnt the book.

The point is that it was done with the specific purpose of inciting a reaction.

I feel i am going around in circles here.

the arrests were made because the reactions that it may cause are a threat to public safety. The same arrests would have been made if it was an anti christian bible burning. It is NOT about the religion, or the extremists. It is about the fact that reactions to these types of events are often violent and we, as a nation, are trying to prevent that.

Surely anyone can see that trying to make our country a peacful, safe place to live is a good thing?

TroubleMaker411

Burning the St George's Cross is absolutely NOT fine.

And anyone that retaliates in such a way will also be arrested because it promotes the same reaction as burning a Quran!

Yes, any action can cause a negative reaction. I agree to this.

But any action that is DESIGNED to promote a violent negative reaction should be treated as a criminal act.

These people were not simply stating their opinion to the people in the pub they were hanging in, but butting it up for the world to see is blatently there to incite a negative, possibly violent, reaction

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

lets not get jumpy and take things out of context. All I'm saying that rather complaining about the consequences, you can prevent the original incident. Get it? For example, when Muslims got all offended because of Denmark and those pictures, I was frustrated because of Muslims rioting like idiots and some of them making death threats...etc and because of Denmark insulting a bunch of people for no apparent reason.

LJS9502_basic