California schools seeking to indoctrinate children?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="I"]

Children should be taught to honor and respect people whose names begin with "Pal" and end with "tas."

Palantas

Might as well teach that in school as well. Let's drop required ****s and spend all day teaching children about every single different category of people we can think of.

Monumental Moments in Pal-tas History:

• 1,200BC: Pallas's Peltasts, a group of mercenary Greek javelinmen, are slaughtered to a man on the first day of the Trojan Wars.
• 387AD: Palantia Taquentas, a Roman noblewoman, invents calculus 11 minutes before being brutalized and murdered by Visigoths.
• 1994 AD: Palantas the Bold, America'snumber one son and fan of all the ladies,beats the Doom shareware for the first time.
• 2005 AD: Palackxornixtortas, a black dragon from Neptune, causes Hurricane Katrina at the behest of President Bush.

As you can see, Pal-tas's are a diverse group of people with many achievements. When I'm done drinking, I will call the ACLU and demand that this curriculum be taught to all children via mandatory Xbox Live ads that play before games.

[QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"] And why shouldn't kids be taught to accept transsexuals?kuraimen

They're too young (the kindergarteners, anyways). Save sexuality for when they're older.

Five year olds are not taught about sex. They're still thinking about "cooties" at that point.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Yes but children in K-5 don't know anything about transsexuals so they aren't intolerant of them to start with.

Necrifer

And this sort of thing could very well be teaching them intolerance.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Might as well teach that in school as well. Let's drop required ****s and spend all day teaching children about every single different category of people we can think of.

PannicAtack

Monumental Moments in Pal-tas History:

• 1,200BC: Pallas's Peltasts, a group of mercenary Greek javelinmen, are slaughtered to a man on the first day of the Trojan Wars.
• 387AD: Palantia Taquentas, a Roman noblewoman, invents calculus 11 minutes before being brutalized and murdered by Visigoths.
• 1994 AD: Palantas the Bold, America'snumber one son and fan of all the ladies,beats the Doom shareware for the first time.
• 2005 AD: Palackxornixtortas, a black dragon from Neptune, causes Hurricane Katrina at the behest of President Bush.

As you can see, Pal-tas's are a diverse group of people with many achievements. When I'm done drinking, I will call the ACLU and demand that this curriculum be taught to all children via mandatory Xbox Live ads that play before games.

I thought the Palackxornixtortas one was pretty funny.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Might as well teach that in school as well. Let's drop required ****s and spend all day teaching children about every single different category of people we can think of.

PannicAtack

Monumental Moments in Pal-tas History:

• 1,200BC: Pallas's Peltasts, a group of mercenary Greek javelinmen, are slaughtered to a man on the first day of the Trojan Wars.
• 387AD: Palantia Taquentas, a Roman noblewoman, invents calculus 11 minutes before being brutalized and murdered by Visigoths.
• 1994 AD: Palantas the Bold, America'snumber one son and fan of all the ladies,beats the Doom shareware for the first time.
• 2005 AD: Palackxornixtortas, a black dragon from Neptune, causes Hurricane Katrina at the behest of President Bush.

As you can see, Pal-tas's are a diverse group of people with many achievements. When I'm done drinking, I will call the ACLU and demand that this curriculum be taught to all children via mandatory Xbox Live ads that play before games.

[QUOTE="DiIIasDonuts"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Oh I'm sure. While he's unemployed and on welfare...he can talk philosophically that not every one is identical.:|LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]

It does apply. Indoctrinate means"to teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically"

These kids are being taught to accept transexuals and their beliefs with no criticism. They have no choice in what they're learning.

ROFLCOPTER603

They're being taught to not criticize transexuals and to be unconditionally accepting of them. They aren't forming their own opinions. By the way, every teacher teaching this course is biased whereas their parents might not be. You automatically assume that every parent is a homophobic racist. My parents never even talked about this subject until well after I formed my own opinions, and I still think transexuals are weird and disgusting.

Could do so yes. It's pointing out differences. Differences are roadblocks to acceptance for many. They don't see the similarity but the difference. And difference makes people uncomfortable....for the most. Not all. But that is how racism, sexism, homophobia starts.

LJS9502_basic

Hm, yes. Children are quite influencable.

[QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] And who says they are taught it uncritically? In fact teaching them about what gender means and how it is viewed in a society is a better way to form a critical opinion than to stay ignorant about it and accept whatever their prejudiced parents tell them.kuraimen

They're being taught to not criticize transexuals and to be unconditionally accepting of them. They aren't forming their own opinions. By the way, every teacher teaching this course is biased whereas their parents might not be. You automatically assume that every parent is a homophobic racist. My parents never even talked about this subject until well after I formed my own opinions, and I still think transexuals are weird and disgusting.

Kids shouldn't be taught either way. If one asks "what's a transexual?" they should be given the definition, not "A disgusting freak" or "someone you should accept".

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

You're not funny, you know.

LJS9502_basic

Well it made me laugh.....:(

Clearly here we have a failure of the educational system to teach young children that Pal-tas's are indeed funny. PanicAttack, your remarks are hurtful and discriminatory to all Pal-tas's. I'm so offended that I will probably go hand out flyers somewhere. :cry:

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="DiIIasDonuts"] I work with troubled kids on a daily basis, and if there is one thing that could change theses kids world its learning how to help those in need, not judging people, and not creating problems for themselves. Physics and calculus are necessary, but if we continue to reward the good, smart, and rich, and just toss aside the rest while they fail the classes they 'need' to graduate, there will always be a societal gap, and there will always be hatred. Giving kids a global and cultural perspective is far from useless.DiIIasDonuts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="BATTOSAI76"]

Hopefully "parents" will teach their kids to be decent members of society. Whether or not you believe the government should teach children this is a non-issue, they simple can't because it infringes on the rights of the people.

BATTOSAI76

If I had it my way kids would be learning the Bible in school, and not evolution, but I can't say that because it infriges on your kids rights to learn evolution if you choose so. Same with sexuality in school. That's why social and religious issues stay out of the cl@$$ room, and remain in the home.

lol, teaching kids about gender diversity is "indoctrinating" them. :lol:[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

Than again wasn't it in California where a teacher took her students to a gay wedding on school time, without permission from the parents. And I bet if one of the students saw the two "spouses" kissing and laughed or called it gross, he'de be the one who gets in trouble.

Theokhoth

Don't tell me kindergartner's don't understand this as being an argument, that is the argument. Kids who don't understand something, put that in their mind and judge that person, because they're different, and they don't understand it. I'm not sure you really know much about education. Because I see kids crying everyday, because they're different and getting picked on, whether it's because of their race, religion, or the way they look. But nope forget that, let's just teach them more math and science, that will make them understand the world. Elementary Education isn't aiming to make kids math whizzes, it's preparing them for the next step, and high school is preparing them for the real world, whether that's going to college to become an engineer or getting a job.

DiIIasDonuts

And what kind of an impact will this have on the children that point out the differences and mock those that are different? They will have an understanding of these differences, before they mature and are able to accept these differences,and may ridicule the other kids with these differences.

Y'see, I just noticed a problem here. Transsexuality is not an opinion. It is a thing that exists. And these attitudes about it being "weird and disgusting" have caused truly horrendous social injustices against the trans community.PannicAtack

I'm not going to go out and lynch transexuals because I think that they're messed up.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]

They're too young (the kindergarteners, anyways). Save sexuality for when they're older.

ROFLCOPTER603

Five year olds are not taught about sex. They're still thinking about "cooties" at that point.

Y'see, I just noticed a problem here. Transsexuality is not an opinion. It is a thing that exists. And these attitudes about it being "weird and disgusting" have caused truly horrendous social injustices against the trans community.PannicAtack

What? People can't find it gross now? Not tolerating it is one thing, finding it gross is something entirely different.PernicioEnigma

Thinking that any physical condition is gross is wrong-think, and people should not be allowed to do it.

oh my god. they are informing students about the fact that transsexual people exist? hold the ****ing presses.

whats next? perhaps they will be teaching kids about homosexuals without condemning them as evil and mentally ill?

[QUOTE="DiIIasDonuts"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]So how about spending education money helping those who need more help in the required courses and less money on extraneous courses that don't teach anything. No one wants to sit through those courses....all they do is point out differences in individuals that children in kindergarten wouldn't even be aware of yet. And if we have learned anything about "differences"...it's that pointing them out creates a divide. NOT acceptance.

LJS9502_basic

Y'see, I just noticed a problem here. Transsexuality is not an opinion. It is a thing that exists. And these attitudes about it being "weird and disgusting" have caused truly horrendous social injustices against the trans community.PannicAtack

I've just read through this briefly but IMO

It's no point in attempting to teach childs things like that at a young age as they are unable to fathom what consequences their actions have for others!

This won't stop bullying and may in fact have the opposite results, childs see that others are different by looks, behaviour and thanks to this test on paper aswell. Experiments like these are dangerous and should be taken in consideration, every test is fallable so a child may end up getting some different results then he should have. Guess what happens when the other childern discover that and guess who is scarred for life.

That being said, i do believe that bullying is a major problem in our current society but this isn't the way to battle it.
Around the time that children get sex education, then topics like this can be considered.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="DiIIasDonuts"] Don't tell me kindergartner's don't understand this as being an argument, that is the argument. Kids who don't understand something, put that in their mind and judge that person, because they're different, and they don't understand it. I'm not sure you really know much about education. Because I see kids crying everyday, because they're different and getting picked on, whether it's because of their race, religion, or the way they look. But nope forget that, let's just teach them more math and science, that will make them understand the world. Elementary Education isn't aiming to make kids math whizzes, it's preparing them for the next step, and high school is preparing them for the real world, whether that's going to college to become an engineer or getting a job.

DiIIasDonuts

the people who protest such information in schools only reveal their own homophobia/transphobia. None of this is a problem unless you think there is something inherently wrong/distasteful/harmful about homosexuality and transgendered people. You may not think your homophobic, but in reality, your motives are being dictated by inward assumptions that LGBT people are inherently "immoral."

face it. what you really take issue with is equal treatment. whenever children are tought the truth about LGBT people without the filter of condemnation and bigotry, it works against your ill-conceived notions of moral superiority.

the people who protest such information in schools only reveal their own homophobia/transphobia. arbitor365

Stop reading there. Gereralizing fail.

the people who protest such information in schools only reveal their own homophobia/transphobia. None of this is a problem unless you think there is something inherently wrong/distasteful/harmful about homosexuality and transgendered people. You may not think your homophobic, but in reality, your motives are being dictated by inward assumptions that LGBT people are inherently "immoral."

face it. what you really take issue with is equal treatment. whenever children are tought the truth about LGBT people without the filter of condemnation and bigotry, it works against your ill-conceived notions of moral superiority.

arbitor365

I'm homophobic and transphobic and I don't care. I don't like when people discriminate based on race, religion, nationality,or disability,but transexuals and homosexuals are going against nature and I find them "immoral" for doing so.

the people who protest such information in schools only reveal their own homophobia/transphobia. None of this is a problem unless you think there is something inherently wrong/distasteful/harmful about homosexuality and transgendered people. You may not think your homophobic, but in reality, your motives are being dictated by inward assumptions that LGBT people are inherently "immoral."

face it. what you really take issue with is equal treatment. whenever children are tought the truth about LGBT people without the filter of condemnation and bigotry, it works against your ill-conceived notions of moral superiority.

arbitor365

And...you can't teach tolerance anyway.

That should be taught from kindergarten a all the way up to primary 6.Lonelynight

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

the people who protest such information in schools only reveal their own homophobia/transphobia. None of this is a problem unless you think there is something inherently wrong/distasteful/harmful about homosexuality and transgendered people. You may not think your homophobic, but in reality, your motives are being dictated by inward assumptions that LGBT people are inherently "immoral."

face it. what you really take issue with is equal treatment. whenever children are tought the truth about LGBT people without the filter of condemnation and bigotry, it works against your ill-conceived notions of moral superiority.

LJS9502_basic

And...you can't teach tolerance anyway.

Agree with the first part but it is most certainly possible to teach tolerance. It's something you teach by showing tolerance and continuing to do so, it's one of the most difficult things to teach a child, due to the possibility of having other intolerant people in the close environment.
One should never underestiminate how much is taught and how little is genetic.

I can now see why an opening prayer in school everyday is unconstitutional but not in legislators.

The next thing u know is kids will get to decide wether they want to be a boy a girl or change multiple times throughout their life irrevalent to their body. humanity is doomed..

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

the people who protest such information in schools only reveal their own homophobia/transphobia. None of this is a problem unless you think there is something inherently wrong/distasteful/harmful about homosexuality and transgendered people. You may not think your homophobic, but in reality, your motives are being dictated by inward assumptions that LGBT people are inherently "immoral."

face it. what you really take issue with is equal treatment. whenever children are tought the truth about LGBT people without the filter of condemnation and bigotry, it works against your ill-conceived notions of moral superiority.

rastotm

And...you can't teach tolerance anyway.

Agree with the first part but it is most certainly possible to teach tolerance. It's something you teach by showing tolerance and continuing to do so, it's one of the most difficult things to teach a child, due to the possibility of having other intolerant people in the close environment.
One should never underestiminate how much is taught and how little is genetic.

[QUOTE="BATTOSAI76"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] By that logic, all education infringes on the rights of the people. Education is (or should be) immune to what the parents want. Many parents don't want their kids learning about evolution; too f***ing bad, evolution is a fact of life and you don't get to decide whether they learn it or not.Theokhoth

If I had it my way kids would be learning the Bible in school, and not evolution, but I can't say that because it infriges on your kids rights to learn evolution if you choose so. Same with sexuality in school. That's why social and religious issues stay out of the cl@$$ room, and remain in the home.

Teaching third genders in school is just as offensive to me as teaching religion in school would be to you. The government has proven to me time and time again that it will do what it wants, and the only thing I can do is vote for the person(s) I think will uphold the constitution to it's original purpose, and that is to see that my rights as a citizen are upheld, and not violated. That includes if I see fit to remove my children from the public education system because their teaching something I don't want them to learn ie Third genders, and evolution which is as I stated in my OP.

[QUOTE="rastotm"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That is wrong. Maybe people think school should do what it was intended to do. And they realize that kindergarten is way to young for this subject. As is much of grade school.

And...you can't teach tolerance anyway.

LJS9502_basic

Agree with the first part but it is most certainly possible to teach tolerance. It's something you teach by showing tolerance and continuing to do so, it's one of the most difficult things to teach a child, due to the possibility of having other intolerant people in the close environment.
One should never underestiminate how much is taught and how little is genetic.

Teaching tolerance at schools is a important step, eventually school is going to have a major influence in their social development. That being said this subject is far to complicated for childs and may even have reverse affects as I pointed out in a few posts earlier.
My point being, the school should have a tolerant setting to be in which, ironic, should have strict rules against intolerant behaviour.
Actual lesses in tolerance no, it's about showing tolerance.

Most Boys don't even like girls at that age

How are they're supposed to understand cross-gender relationships if they don't even understand heterosexuality. Although I fully support a Sex Ed CIass and don't mind a progressive lesson plan, I don't think that type of course is necessary nor effective at such a young age.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="rastotm"]

Agree with the first part but it is most certainly possible to teach tolerance. It's something you teach by showing tolerance and continuing to do so, it's one of the most difficult things to teach a child, due to the possibility of having other intolerant people in the close environment.
One should never underestiminate how much is taught and how little is genetic.

rastotm

Teaching tolerance at schools is a important step, eventually school is going to have a major influence in their social development. That being said this subject is far to complicated for childs and may even have reverse affects as I pointed out in a few posts earlier.
My point being, the school should have a tolerant setting to be in which, ironic, should have strict rules against intolerant behaviour.
Actual lesses in tolerance no, it's about showing tolerance.

Most Boys don't even like girls at that age

How are they're supposed to understand cross-gender relationships if they don't even understand heterosexuality. Although I fully support a Sex Ed CIass and don't mind a progressive lesson plan, I don't think that type of course is necessary nor effective at such a young age.

Blue-Sky

Wouldn't it be smarter to teach this stuff later in life? Kids at that age really don't have a lot of notions about sexuality. They find any public act of affection to be gross.

[QUOTE="rastotm"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Doesn't matter. Kids learn the attitudes they grow up with....and from their peers. You cannot teach tolerance by forcing it in school. Which is what I was talking about. And again...this is way too young to even have these cIasses.

LJS9502_basic

Teaching tolerance at schools is a important step, eventually school is going to have a major influence in their social development. That being said this subject is far to complicated for childs and may even have reverse affects as I pointed out in a few posts earlier.
My point being, the school should have a tolerant setting to be in which, ironic, should have strict rules against intolerant behaviour.
Actual lesses in tolerance no, it's about showing tolerance.

We are having exact the same opinion i'm just horrible at wording it correctly, I said teaching but i ment showing.
On that account, strict religious or elitist schools are IMO bad, they should be much more neutral and parent should realize it's healthy for their kids to send them to these neutral schools.
Anway we are going a bit offtopic here, I guess everyone agrees that the action of the california school is well intended but very inappropriate.

I'm homophobic and transphobic and I don't care. I don't like when people discriminate based on race, religion, nationality,or disability,but transexuals and homosexuals are going against nature and I find them "immoral" for doing so.ROFLCOPTER603

at least you arent disingenuous enough to hide your motives. the same cant be said for other people in this thread.

Maybe people think school should do what it was intended to do.LJS9502_basic

last I checked, education is intended to prepare students for the outside world and it covers a variety of topics besides "2 + 2 = 4." throughout school, students will learn about the following things (whether it is explicitly defined in the curriculum or not)

- the complexities of human relationships (through literature classes)

- the dangers of alcohol/drug abuse

- much of the atrocities of human history

- the psychology of genders

- public speaking skills

- the history of ethnic groups

- the evolution of the ideas of human rights

that is just scratching the surface.and you may think that these are things they learn later in highschool/middleschool, but they are exposed to these ideas and more, just in elementary school.

students will spend around 16,000 hours in school throughout their life. are you telling me that none of that time could be utilized to objectively educate students about a minority that has been statistically shown to be the most likely to be bullied, harassed, the victim of hate crimes, discriminated against, and driven to suicide? teaching kids about homosexuals and trans people is definitely worth a bit of time, since it has such pragmatic applications.

And they realize that kindergarten is way to young for this subject. As is much of grade school.LJS9502_basic

how so? in what objective way? kindergardeners are already exposed to heterosexual relationships on a daily basis. also some of their first books may include a picture of a boy and girl with the words below the images. they are already familar with the concepts of sexuality and gender (though the act of sex is still alien to them). why are gays and transexuals unacceptable for their age group while "normal" people with "normal" relationships are not? the answer is that you find gays and transsexuals to be inappropriate or inherently morally inferior. thats why you seek to marginalize them as something taboo. if you viewed them without any prejudice or disdain, than their presence in schools would be entirely inconsequential.

And this is stuff many parents don't believe in and don't want their children to learn.

...a minority that has been statistically shown to be the most likely to be bullied, harassed, the victim of hate crimes, discriminated against, and driven to suicide?

arbitor365

Source? Also, since we're talking about pragmatic matters, it doesn't actually matter if they're the most likely to be bullied, et cetera. What only matters are the final numbers, that is, which victim group has the greatest number of people bullied (et cetera), not which has the greatest percentage. The greatest good for the greatest number.

[QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]

at least you arent disingenuous enough to hide your motives. the same cant be said for other people in this thread.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Maybe people think school should do what it was intended to do.arbitor365

last I checked, education is intended to prepare students for the outside world and it covers a variety of topics besides "2 + 2 = 4." throughout school, students will learn about the following things (whether it is explicitly defined in the curriculum or not)

- the complexities of human relationships (through literature classes)

- the dangers of alcohol/drug abuse

- much of the atrocities of human history

- the psychology of genders

- public speaking skills

- the history of ethnic groups

- the evolution of the ideas of human rights

that is just scratching the surface.and you may think that these are things they learn later in highschool/middleschool, but they are exposed to these ideas and more, just in elementary school.

students will spend around 16,000 hours in school throughout their life. are you telling me that none of that time could be utilized to objectively educate students about a minority that has been statistically shown to be the most likely to be bullied, harassed, the victim of hate crimes, discriminated against, and driven to suicide? teaching kids about homosexuals and trans people is definitely worth a bit of time, since it has such pragmatic applications.

And they realize that kindergarten is way to young for this subject. As is much of grade school.LJS9502_basic

how so? in what objective way? kindergardeners are already exposed to heterosexual relationships on a daily basis. also some of their first books may include a picture of a boy and girl with the words below the images. they are already familar with the concepts of sexuality and gender (though the act of sex is still alien to them). why are gays and transexuals unacceptable for their age group while "normal" people with "normal" relationships are not? the answer is that you find gays and transsexuals to be inappropriate or inherently morally inferior. thats why you seek to marginalize them as something taboo. if you viewed them without any prejudice or disdain, than their presence in schools would be entirely inconsequential.

Kindergartners are unlikely to comprehend such a subject at such a young age, these kids are still discovering their own bodies and you want them to comprehend the differences between women and men physically and socially. Confronting kids with such things at such age is far beyonf their level, it's like giving them math equations while they have a hard time getting 1 + 1 done.

The fact that these childs are already exposed to heterosexual relationships doesn't mean that they actually know what it represents. I get the point that children should eventually learn important topics like these but it's pointless to do so at this age. They don't get lessons in hetero relationshops at that age aswell.

last I checked, education is intended to prepare students for the outside world and it covers a variety of topics besides "2 + 2 = 4." throughout school, students will learn about the following things (whether it is explicitly defined in the curriculum or not)

- the complexities of human relationships (through literature classes)

- the dangers of alcohol/drug abuse

- much of the atrocities of human history

- the psychology of genders

- public speaking skills

- the history of ethnic groups

- the evolution of the ideas of human rights

that is just scratching the surface.and you may think that these are things they learn later in highschool/middleschool, but they are exposed to these ideas and more, just in elementary school.

students will spend around 16,000 hours in school throughout their life. are you telling me that none of that time could be utilized to objectively educate students about a minority that has been statistically shown to be the most likely to be bullied, harassed, the victim of hate crimes, discriminated against, and driven to suicide? teaching kids about homosexuals and trans people is definitely worth a bit of time, since it has such pragmatic applications.

how so? in what objective way? kindergardeners are already exposed to heterosexual relationships on a daily basis. also some of their first books may include a picture of a boy and girl with the words below the images. they are already familar with the concepts of sexuality and gender (though the act of sex is still alien to them). why are gays and transexuals unacceptable for their age group while "normal" people with "normal" relationships are not? the answer is that you find gays and transsexuals to be inappropriate or inherently morally inferior. thats why you seek to marginalize them as something taboo. if you viewed them without any prejudice or disdain, than their presence in schools would be entirely inconsequential.

arbitor365

So I don't get your point here. I have a child in elementary school....and they are not exposed to any of that in the lower grades. I also have neices and nephews in various schools and in different parts of the country and in elementary school....they weren't exposed to it either. So it's not just about my local area.

Statistically shown to be the most bullied? I doubt that....since most transsexuals are probably not aware of the term for how they feel at a young age. And the fact that you say they are statistically the most bullied doesn't mean it's so. Actually having a small number of people in that group would likely mean that as a group they aren't the most bullied. But then you haven't given any numbers either.

Sexuality of any kind isn't taught in elementary school. Kids aren't that aware of it except as a personal crush until roughly middle school.

Is there a reason we can't allow kids to be kids?