California schools seeking to indoctrinate children?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I think they're just mad at his positions, but I'm not really going to get too far into this discussion about this since I'd be contributing to what I'm objecting to.

LJS9502_basic

Maybe in your case, but you can only speak for yourself.

And really, if you have something to say about me, just go ahead and say it. Don't beat around the bush.

Really, our earlier discussion was simply cover for you to being able to provide proof for your claims. If you didn't want to have a discussion with me, you wouldn't have responded me or tried that lame "Google it!" tactic. Obviously, you're fine with discussing some things with me, just not things that actually pertain to claims you made. :roll:

I disagree with pretty much everything you've said, hence why I'm still religious.Theokhoth

you dont believe me about god being evil throughout the whole bible? well, im sure you will point to the new testament for that. sorry but Jesus is still pretty messed up too.

- the new testament flourishes on the concept of hell (though its something you deny). It really is a key part of christianity. without it, what the **** is jesus hanging on that cross to "save us" from? the fact that jesus talks about it shows that he beleived in it. at least when the god of the old testament killed you, he was done with you. I dont think I need to explain why hell is such a repugnant concept.

- he had the power to cure all illness in the world and yet he doesnt. instead, he just heals the people he comes across. voltaire once said "Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do."(and Voltaire was much wiser than Jesus, BTW).here is a great comedy video on this topic

- in mathew 24, jesus mentions the story of noah in a literal context. So, he believed that the story was true. which means he believed that god killed millions of men women and children, and he obviously thought it was justified.

- Jesus accepts the current gender roles and in no way promotes equal treatment of women.

- He also never condemns slavery and instead says that slaves should accept their place in life and obey their masters.

- he never recants any of the old testament views towards gays. so as far as jesus was concerned, your sexuality is still sinful.

----------------------------------

of course, I dont even need to go into the old testament, because that is just hitting below the belt. we all know the horrific **** in that part of the bible.

anyway, I dont see how someone as liberal and scrutinizing as you can overlook all this stuff

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I think they're just mad at his positions, but I'm not really going to get too far into this discussion about this since I'd be contributing to what I'm objecting to.

GreySeal9

Maybe in your case, but you can only speak for yourself.

If it were merely positions that antagonize people, no one would be able to have a friendly debate. I've seen many friendly debates on GS. Not very often, however, when Theokhoth is involved.

arbitor365

you dont believe me about god being evil throughout the whole bible?

arbitor365

"Evil" is nonsense like religion, and your argument makes no sense when you use them like this. "Evil" compared to what? What you decided what was evil? Please forgive me if you defined these terms earlier; this has been a lengthy thread.

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

LJS9502_basic

Are you a Christian? I'm just wondering, because I may be confusing you for another user, but back in the day I think I remember coming across you taking a non-Christian stance in debates...

If it were merely positions that antagonize people, no one would be able to have a friendly debate. I've seen many friendly debates on GS. J-man45

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

J-man45

Are you a Christian? I'm just wondering, because I may be confusing you for another user, but back in the day I think I remember coming across you taking a non-Christian stance in debates...

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]It's not positions that antagonize people....more the approach. Which goes back to our earlier discussion as well.

LJS9502_basic

Maybe in your case, but you can only speak for yourself.

And really, if you have something to say about me, just go ahead and say it. Don't beat around the bush.

Really, our earlier discussion was simply cover for you to being able to provide proof for your claims. If you didn't want to have a discussion with me, you wouldn't have responded me or tried that lame "Google it!" tactic. Obviously, you're fine with discussing some things with me, just not things that actually pertain to claims you made. :roll:

Yet you keep replying to me.

It really doesn't make sense that you reply to me over and over about this kind of off topic crap, yet when I ask for proof for claims you made, or when I ask you to point me to studies that you say exist, all of a sudden the discussion is closed. :roll:

Actually that isn't the God in Christianity at all...:|LJS9502_basic

well lets look at only a few of his exploits

- condemned all of mankind (even people who werent even born yet) because two people ate a fruit. so all the suffering in the world, the holocaust, starving african children, genocide, torture, aids, STDs and everything terrible in the world exists because he couldnt find it within himself to forgive 2 people for eating a peice of fruit.

- committed massive genocide, almost wiping out the human race in a flood

- wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah (women and children too), and then killed a lady just for looking back.

- split mankind into countless languages, shattering our ability to organize and communicate

- led the israelites through massive bloody campaigns killing thousands

- issued the death penalty for things we dont even consider crimes anymore (like working on the Sabbath)

- created the ultimate pit of torture

- sent bears to eat children for mocking his prophet

- sent the plagues of egypt, killing thousands of children and adults (after purposefully hardening Pharaoh's heart, I might add)

hmmmmm....... it sounds like him to me. and those are just a few examples that most people learned in sunday school.

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not getting into a religious argument since it's not appropriate for this thread. I will say the bible has to be studied...not just read.

LJS9502_basic

Are you a Christian? I'm just wondering, because I may be confusing you for another user, but back in the day I think I remember coming across you taking a non-Christian stance in debates...

Oh. Well consider that water under the bridge then, lol.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="J-man45"]

Are you a Christian? I'm just wondering, because I may be confusing you for another user, but back in the day I think I remember coming across you taking a non-Christian stance in debates...

J-man45

Oh. Well consider that water under the bridge then, lol.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually that isn't the God in Christianity at all...:|arbitor365

well lets look at only a few of his exploits

- condemned all of mankind (even people who werent even born yet) because two people ate a fruit. so all the suffering in the world, the holocaust, starving african children, genocide, torture, aids, STDs and everything terrible in the world exists because he couldnt find it within himself to forgive 2 people for eating a peice of fruit.

- committed massive genocide, almost wiping out the human race in a flood

- wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah (women and children too), and then killed a lady just for looking back.

- split mankind into countless languages, shattering our ability to organize and communicate

- led the israelites through massive bloody campaigns killing thousands

- issued the death penalty for things we dont even consider crimes anymore (like working on the Sabbath)

- created the ultimate pit of torture

- sent bears to eat children for mocking his prophet

- sent the plagues of egypt, killing thousands of children and adults (after purposefully hardening Pharaoh's heart, I might add)

hmmmmm....... it sounds like him to me. and those are just a few examples that most people learned in sunday school.

You act like you have an objective moral standard to compare GOD to. Not to mention ignoring the fact that maybe God is in fact justified in his actions. Also realizing the state of man, etc.

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Not me ever. While I can debate opposing sides....I'm Catholic and I don't debate that opposing side.:PLJS9502_basic

Oh. Well consider that water under the bridge then, lol.

Now I'm not really sure. I may have imagined it... :P

This is... weird... O_o Homeschooling is looking better, and better every day.

BATTOSAI76

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually that isn't the God in Christianity at all...:|arbitor365

well lets look at only a few of his exploits

- condemned all of mankind (even people who werent even born yet) because two people ate a fruit. so all the suffering in the world, the holocaust, starving african children, genocide, torture, aids, STDs and everything terrible in the world exists because he couldnt find it within himself to forgive 2 people for eating a peice of fruit.

- committed massive genocide, almost wiping out the human race in a flood

- wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah (women and children too), and then killed a lady just for looking back.

- split mankind into countless languages, shattering our ability to organize and communicate

- led the israelites through massive bloody campaigns killing thousands

- issued the death penalty for things we dont even consider crimes anymore (like working on the Sabbath)

- created the ultimate pit of torture

- sent bears to eat children for mocking his prophet

- sent the plagues of egypt, killing thousands of children and adults (after purposefully hardening Pharaoh's heart, I might add)

hmmmmm....... it sounds like him to me. and those are just a few examples that most people learned in sunday school.

You act like you have an objective moral standard to compare GOD to.

J-man45

I was wondering about the same thing.

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

You act like you have an objective moral standard to compare GOD to.

Palantas

I was wondering about the same thing.

Well, under this logic, wouldn't you need an objective moral standard to make a moral judgment about anybody?

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

You act like you have an objective moral standard to compare GOD to.

GreySeal9

I was wondering about the same thing.

Well, under this logic, wouldn't you need an objective moral standard to make a moral judgment about anybody?

I do have a moral standard... Because I believe there is a moral standard found in God's word, the Bible.

Well, under this logic, wouldn't you need an objective moral standard to make a moral judgment about anybody?

GreySeal9

I'm not following what you're asking me here.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

I was wondering about the same thing.

J-man45

Well, under this logic, wouldn't you need an objective moral standard to make a moral judgment about anybody?

I do have a moral standard... Because I believe there is a moral standard found in God's word, the Bible.

I realize you have a moral standard, but it is not an objective one. And arbitor also has a more standard that is not objective.

If you need an objective moral standard to make a moral judgment against God, why doesn't it also follow that one needs an objective moral standard to judge anybody?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Well, under this logic, wouldn't you need an objective moral standard to make a moral judgment about anybody?

Palantas

I'm not following what you're asking me here.

I'm basically saying that any moral judgment relies on a subjective moral standard (as an objective moral standard doesn't really exist), so it really doesn't make all that much sense to ask for an objective moral standard for judging God. One can only judge morality in a subjective way.

I'm basically saying that any moral judgment relies on a subjective moral standard (as an objective moral standard doesn't really exist), so it really doesn't make all that much sense to ask for an objective moral standard for judging God. One can only judge morality in a subjective way.

GreySeal9

All right. I guess you were addressing Jman, then? I was wondering about arbitor's definition of morality. He's saying something is evil without defining what evil is; at least I don't think he did.

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

You act like you have an objective moral standard to compare GOD to.

Palantas

I was wondering about the same thing.

well, thats an interesting way to look at things. what you are saying is that god can do whatever he wants and its ok, no matter what. there are some issues that I have with this

- that means that the morality that god gives us is entirely arbitrary

- there is nothing your god can do that would indite him as evil. how convenient for theologians. thats not a "cop out" at all.

- just to be facetious, doesnt that mean that god could be gay if he wanted to? just saying.

- how is he a "perfect being" if he is able to sin? that undermines the christian definition of "perfection"

- doesnt that mean that god could change his rules set in place for mankind on the spot. he could just say "gays are ok now." doesnt that devalue the sanctity of his own rules if he has the ability to change them on a whim?

- so, if god ordered you to kill a pregnant woman, you would be obliged to do so? His word is final and his rules are absolute. is there anything you would be unwilling to do if he commanded you to?

If God is defined as the all-powerful supreme being then God is by definition the source of morality. If God is the vessel of a set standard of morality, then there is an objective standard of morality. (And no, I do not think the subjectivity of does God exist contradict my statement, before you say that.)

- that means that the morality that god gives us is entirely arbitrary

arbitor365

As opposed to morality that isn't arbitrary? Where does that come from?

I don't care to address your other questions. Earlier you listed a bunch of incidents in the Bible and said they were evil. I asked if you defined what evil is. Have you?

If God is defined as the all-powerful supreme being then God is by definition the source of morality. If God is the vessel of a set standard of morality, then there is an objective standard of morality. (And no, I do not think the subjectivity of does God exist contradict my statement, before you say that.)

J-man45

The problem is not everybody thinks God is real, much less the source of morality, so that disagreement alone implies subjectivity.

Objectivity simply cannot be denied.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

You act like you have an objective moral standard to compare GOD to.

arbitor365

I was wondering about the same thing.

well, thats an interesting way to look at things. what you are saying is that god can do whatever he wants and its ok, no matter what. there are some issues that I have with this

- that means that the morality that god gives us is entirely arbitrary

- there is nothing your god can do that would indite him as evil. how convenient for theologians. thats not a "cop out" at all.

- just to be facetious, doesnt that mean that god could be gay if he wanted to? just saying.

- how is he a "perfect being" if he is able to sin? that undermines the christian definition of "perfection"

- doesnt that mean that god could change his rules set in place for mankind on the spot. he could just say "gays are ok now." doesnt that devalue the sanctity of his own rules if he has the ability to change them on a whim?

- so, if god ordered you to kill a pregnant woman, you would be obliged to do so? His word is final and his rules are absolute. is there anything you would be unwilling to do if he commanded you to?

God is the creator of all things, and therefore deserves devotion. His standard is perfection, and those who break his law he is justified in his dealings. God's wrath is real. The Creator has grounds to deal with his creation, but God is not without mercy, love, and forgiveness. The picture of God is painted out in the Bible sothat our feeble human might grasp at least some of the scope of his character, though we will never fully understand.Here's a thought, can the source of all good be evil? Can the source of all judgment be judged? And no, God will not change his rules because God needs only to set his rules once, because they are perfect.

Seems people can't tell the difference between gender and sexuality.

EDIT: nice to see a religious debate has fired up

Here's a thought, can the source of all good be evil? Can the source of all judgment be judged? And no, God will not change his rules because God needs only to set his rules once, because they are perfect.J-man45

Schools in Oakland, California are having a spending two days (May 23 and 24) teaching chldren from Kindergarten to Fifth grade that "there are more than two genders" in a program about "Gender Spectrum diversity".

Here is the breakdown by grade:

Grades K-1: "Boy, girl or both? Which Outfit, Which Hairdo? (Reading) My Princess Boy." Grades 2-3 "What is gender? (Reading) 10,000 Dresses." Grades 4-5: "Three dimensions of gender. (Reading/Song) All I Want to be is Me."

And this is stuff many parents don't believe in and don't want their children to learn.

And anyone else think that K- 5 students are really gonna comprehend junk like:

"gender is not inherently nor solely connected to one's physical anatomy." Further, gender is a "complex interrelationship between (physical traits) and one's internal sense of self as male, female, both or neither as well as one's outward presentations and behaviors related to that perception."

And we wonder why our math and science scores are so low, because instead of spending time teaching about that we waste it teaching all this political correct garbage.

whipassmt

IIRC, in California, parents can pull their kids out of whatever classes deal with that content, on those specific days.

Lockedge

It seems that would satisfy a number of the objections in this thread. Earlier in the thread, I mean, before the religion stuff.

[QUOTE="Lockedge"]

IIRC, in California, parents can pull their kids out of whatever classes deal with that content, on those specific days.

Palantas

It seems that would satisfy a number of the objections in this thread. Earlier in the thread, I mean, before the religion stuff.

I do have a moral standard... Because I believe there is a moral standard found in God's word, the Bible.

J-man45

So if you didn't have an old book telling you what was right and wrong you would have no moral compass at all?

that's hilarious. If anything, California should troll southern states more.

I'm glad that they're trying to prevent discrimination, this seems like a good step.

It's California. Hope nobody is surprised.

Just continue to cram more and more stuff into the curriculum and then wonder why the fundamentals (i.e. language, mathematics, science, etc) are failing.daqua_99

[QUOTE="daqua_99"]Just continue to cram more and more stuff into the curriculum and then wonder why the fundamentals (i.e. language, mathematics, science, etc) are failing.CaveJohnson1

[QUOTE="daqua_99"]Just continue to cram more and more stuff into the curriculum and then wonder why the fundamentals (i.e. language, mathematics, science, etc) are failing.CaveJohnson1

Underfunding? U.S. schools are overfunded compared to the rest of the Western world. Some of the best funded schools are the crappiest schools. It has nothing to do with funding.

What the hell? These kids are too young to love their opposite sex, let alone UNDERSTAND love and loving the same sex or finding them attractive, this is stupid.

[QUOTE="BATTOSAI76"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] By that logic, all education infringes on the rights of the people. Education is (or should be) immune to what the parents want. Many parents don't want their kids learning about evolution; too f***ing bad, evolution is a fact of life and you don't get to decide whether they learn it or not.Theokhoth

If I had it my way kids would be learning the Bible in school, and not evolution, but I can't say that because it infriges on your kids rights to learn evolution if you choose so. Same with sexuality in school. That's why social and religious issues stay out of the cl@$$ room, and remain in the home.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="BATTOSAI76"]

If I had it my way kids would be learning the Bible in school, and not evolution, but I can't say that because it infriges on your kids rights to learn evolution if you choose so. Same with sexuality in school. That's why social and religious issues stay out of the cl@$$ room, and remain in the home.

whipassmt

. Not to mention, what kind of parents teach 5 year olds to hate on people?DroidPhysX

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] If it's the ignorant side, then God can go to hell.Theokhoth

Watch yourself Theo. You're skating on thin ice. Stop and think. Don't get so caught up in your pride. I'm starting to get concerned about you. Are you really letting your loyalty to the LGBT agenda trump your loyalty to God?

And why do you assume that those who disagree with you are "malevolent" or jerks. If God created someone as a male or female, and wants them to stay that way, isn't that His prerogative.

Maybe you are right about these topics. But if God disagrees with me, then I must accept that humbly, not continue to think I am right.

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Theo used to say he was religious....of course he used to be conservative as well.Theokhoth