Do you believe the not guilty verdict for Zimmerman is just? UPDATE: NOT GUILTY

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]Why does "stand your ground" only apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? If a man with a gun followed you and confronted you, isn't fighting him off for fear of your life a natural reaction?Renevent42

There's no evidence Zimmerman brandished his weapon. In fact, there's no evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman had a gun until it was too late. none of the testimony including the testimony from the defence's witnesses ever mentioned this.  Secondly, what matters is who initiated physical contact first. If Zimmerman attacked Martin first and only used the gun once he started loosing obviously self defense is out. However, if Martin attacked first and Zimmerman shot Martin after having his head beat in that's a 100% justifiable use of lethal force in self defense.

Obviously since Martin is dead and there are no witnesses that actually saw how the incident started, none of this can be proven. Just like none of what Zimmerman said can be 100% proven since he's really the only one that was actually there that's telling the story. I'm just speculating another possible start that led to the final outcome. ;)

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]Why does "stand your ground" only apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? If a man with a gun followed you and confronted you, isn't fighting him off for fear of your life a natural reaction?SandwichLord

There's no evidence Zimmerman brandished his weapon. In fact, there's no evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman had a gun until it was too late. none of the testimony including the testimony from the defence's witnesses ever mentioned this.  Secondly, what matters is who initiated physical contact first. If Zimmerman attacked Martin first and only used the gun once he started loosing obviously self defense is out. However, if Martin attacked first and Zimmerman shot Martin after having his head beat in that's a 100% justifiable use of lethal force in self defense.

Obviously since Martin is dead and there are no witnesses that actually saw how the incident started, none of this can be proven. Just like none of what Zimmerman said can be 100% proven since he's really the only one that was actually there that's telling the story. I'm just speculating another possible start that led to the final outcome. ;)

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]Why does "stand your ground" only apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? If a man with a gun followed you and confronted you, isn't fighting him off for fear of your life a natural reaction?gago-gago

There's no evidence Zimmerman brandished his weapon. In fact, there's no evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman had a gun until it was too late. none of the testimony including the testimony from the defence's witnesses ever mentioned this.  Secondly, what matters is who initiated physical contact first. If Zimmerman attacked Martin first and only used the gun once he started loosing obviously self defense is out. However, if Martin attacked first and Zimmerman shot Martin after having his head beat in that's a 100% justifiable use of lethal force in self defense.

[QUOTE="gago-gago"][QUOTE="Renevent42"]

There's no evidence Zimmerman brandished his weapon. In fact, there's no evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman had a gun until it was too late. none of the testimony including the testimony from the defence's witnesses ever mentioned this.  Secondly, what matters is who initiated physical contact first. If Zimmerman attacked Martin first and only used the gun once he started loosing obviously self defense is out. However, if Martin attacked first and Zimmerman shot Martin after having his head beat in that's a 100% justifiable use of lethal force in self defense.

Renevent42

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]Why does "stand your ground" only apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? If a man with a gun followed you and confronted you, isn't fighting him off for fear of your life a natural reaction?SandwichLord

have to prove he was in fear for his life

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

have to prove he was in fear for his life

lostrib

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]Why does "stand your ground" only apply to Zimmerman and not Martin? If a man with a gun followed you and confronted you, isn't fighting him off for fear of your life a natural reaction?SandwichLord

have to prove he was in fear for his life

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"] That's definitely an uphill battle for the prosecution since Martin is dead and there are no real witnesses. But I think being followed in the middle of the night by a man much larger than you that's wielding a gun is pretty damn scary :?

gago-gago

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

you mean the  "creepy-ass cracker"? yeah that really did not help the prosecution.  And there is little proof of an actual threat 

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"] That's definitely an uphill battle for the prosecution since Martin is dead and there are no real witnesses. But I think being followed in the middle of the night by a man much larger than you that's wielding a gun is pretty damn scary :?

gago-gago

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]

There's no evidence Zimmerman brandished his weapon. In fact, there's no evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman had a gun until it was too late. none of the testimony including the testimony from the defence's witnesses ever mentioned this.  Secondly, what matters is who initiated physical contact first. If Zimmerman attacked Martin first and only used the gun once he started loosing obviously self defense is out. However, if Martin attacked first and Zimmerman shot Martin after having his head beat in that's a 100% justifiable use of lethal force in self defense.

Renevent42

Obviously since Martin is dead and there are no witnesses that actually saw how the incident started, none of this can be proven. Just like none of what Zimmerman said can be 100% proven since he's really the only one that was actually there that's telling the story. I'm just speculating another possible start that led to the final outcome. ;)

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"] That's definitely an uphill battle for the prosecution since Martin is dead and there are no real witnesses. But I think being followed in the middle of the night by a man much larger than you that's wielding a gun is pretty damn scary :?

gago-gago

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

[QUOTE="gago-gago"][QUOTE="lostrib"]

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]

There's no evidence Zimmerman brandished his weapon. In fact, there's no evidence Martin even knew Zimmerman had a gun until it was too late. none of the testimony including the testimony from the defence's witnesses ever mentioned this.  Secondly, what matters is who initiated physical contact first. If Zimmerman attacked Martin first and only used the gun once he started loosing obviously self defense is out. However, if Martin attacked first and Zimmerman shot Martin after having his head beat in that's a 100% justifiable use of lethal force in self defense.

Renevent42

Obviously since Martin is dead and there are no witnesses that actually saw how the incident started, none of this can be proven. Just like none of what Zimmerman said can be 100% proven since he's really the only one that was actually there that's telling the story. I'm just speculating another possible start that led to the final outcome. ;)

Martin did refer to Zimmerman as "crazy", right? That suggests he felt somewhat threatened. Saying, "There's a crazy person following me," definitely sounds more troubling than just, "There's a person following me." Also, Martin dropped his phone before the any violence took place. Isn't it natural to drop something you are carrying when you are scared or shocked? Maybe he saw the gun and dropped his phone. I think it's more believable to have seen the gun at the beginning of the confrontation than while he was actually fighting Zimmerman, since his attacks were concentrated on Zimmerman's head. 

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

Obviously since Martin is dead and there are no witnesses that actually saw how the incident started, none of this can be proven. Just like none of what Zimmerman said can be 100% proven since he's really the only one that was actually there that's telling the story. I'm just speculating another possible start that led to the final outcome. ;)

SandwichLord

Martin did refer to Zimmerman as "crazy", right? That suggests he felt somewhat threatened. Saying, "There's a crazy person following me," definitely sounds more troubling than just, "There's a person following me." Also, Martin dropped his phone before the any violence took place. Isn't it natural to drop something you are carrying when you are scared or shocked? Maybe he saw the gun and dropped his phone. I think it's more believable to have seen the gun at the beginning of the confrontation than while he was actually fighting Zimmerman, since his attacks were concentrated on Zimmerman's head. 

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

Obviously since Martin is dead and there are no witnesses that actually saw how the incident started, none of this can be proven. Just like none of what Zimmerman said can be 100% proven since he's really the only one that was actually there that's telling the story. I'm just speculating another possible start that led to the final outcome. ;)

SandwichLord

Martin did refer to Zimmerman as "crazy", right? That suggests he felt somewhat threatened. Saying, "There's a crazy person following me," definitely sounds more troubling than just, "There's a person following me." Also, Martin dropped his phone before the any violence took place. Isn't it natural to drop something you are carrying when you are scared or shocked? Maybe he saw the gun and dropped his phone. I think it's more believable to have seen the gun at the beginning of the confrontation than while he was actually fighting Zimmerman, since his attacks were concentrated on Zimmerman's head. 

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="gago-gago"] Did those creepy people follow you home in the night?gago-gago

and then allegedly "TM" sucker punched zimmerman and started bashing his head into the ground, and told Zimmerman he was going to die

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

have to prove he was in fear for his life

LJS9502_basic

Well, a bullet can travel faster than the speed of sound, much faster than any human can run. If you fear you are going to be shot and killed, you may decide you have a better chance at living by trying to take the gun away from the attacker, or incapacitate him, rather than running away. Also, fear can drive you to act irrationally; Zimmerman may not have been a threat, but if Martin was afraid, lashing out is perfectly reasonable...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SandwichLord"] That's definitely an uphill battle for the prosecution since Martin is dead and there are no real witnesses. But I think being followed in the middle of the night by a man much larger than you that's wielding a gun is pretty damn scary :?

SandwichLord

Well, a bullet can travel faster than the speed of sound, much faster than any human can run. If you fear you are going to be shot and killed, you may decide you have a better chance at living by trying to take the gun away from the attacker, or incapacitate him, rather than running away. Also, fear can drive you to act irrationally; Zimmerman may not have been a threat, but if Martin was afraid, lashing out is perfectly reasonable...

[QUOTE="gago-gago"][QUOTE="lostrib"]

zimmerman's account (the only one we have) says he lost Martin and was heading back to his car. And wasn't brandishing a weapon.  So it's really hard to prove he was any sort of threat at the time

Renevent42

At the end of the day we don't know if Zimmerman or Trayvon was the aggressor.. In all honesty I could think of a variety of scenarios where either one could be.

1) Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon became scared and decided to attack his follower before something happened to him.

2) Zimmerman followed Trayvon, upset with recenltly burglaries and atttacked Trayvon. FOr instance, grabbed him, pushed him or punched him.

Not alleging Zimmerman's guild, but what lots of people seemto not pay attention to is that getting your ass kicked does not mean you are a victim. Would a school bully who attacked a quiet unassuming kid on the playground be a victim if he taunted and attacked him first, but then got his ass handed to him?

[QUOTE="no-scope-AK47"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You seem to be racist...LJS9502_basic

The facts are GZ assualted a police officer and his ex and lied at his bail hearing. He called 911 every time he saw a black kid. He was driving around with one in the hole. He follows another black kid but this time he gets out armed. He gets in a fist fight with a boy he had 40 pounds on and he had martial arts trainng. He claims he was getting beat up and killed a little kid. He then does not call 911 or try to do cpr.

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="gago-gago"] There's evidenced stated by a witness TM was creeped out by a creepy man following him. TM tried standing his ground and got killed.Aclar00_basic

At the end of the day we don't know if Zimmerman or Trayvon was the aggressor.. In all honesty I could think of a variety of scenarios where either one could be.

1) Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon became scared and decided to attack his follower before something happened to him.

2) Zimmerman followed Trayvon, upset with recenltly burglaries and atttacked Trayvon. FOr instance, grabbed him, pushed him or punched him.

Not alleging Zimmerman's guild, but what lots of people seemto not pay attention to is that getting your ass kicked does not mean you are a victim. Would a school bully who attacked a quiet unassuming kid on the playground be a victim if he taunted and attacked him first, but then got his ass handed to him?

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="gago-gago"] There's evidenced stated by a witness TM was creeped out by a creepy man following him. TM tried standing his ground and got killed.Aclar00_basic

[QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"]You are suggesting he fought Zimmerman because he was afraid because he was a man with a gun. He was speaking to someone on the phone right up to the confrontation, and not once did Martin ever mention Zimmerman had a gun or that he was afraid. That doesn't mean it's impossible that Zimmerman hit Martin first, but you are going out on a limb with your line of reasoning and frankly it's not supported by any evidence in this case.LJS9502_basic

Martin did refer to Zimmerman as "crazy", right? That suggests he felt somewhat threatened. Saying, "There's a crazy person following me," definitely sounds more troubling than just, "There's a person following me." Also, Martin dropped his phone before the any violence took place. Isn't it natural to drop something you are carrying when you are scared or shocked? Maybe he saw the gun and dropped his phone. I think it's more believable to have seen the gun at the beginning of the confrontation than while he was actually fighting Zimmerman, since his attacks were concentrated on Zimmerman's head. 

If you are, say, in the woods, and talking to a friend on the phone, and you notice a grizzly bear behind you, and you say to your friend on the phone, "There's a bear behind me," we could assume you are afraid of the bear even though you didn't say you were afraid. It's probably a poor analogy, but I think it gets my point across; you don't have to state that you are afraid in order to be afraid. I doubt Zimmerman said, "I'm afraid I'm going to die so I'm going to shoot this guy." He feared for his life and he did it. The fact that Martin mentioned he was being followed shows that he was concerned, doesn't it? Also, wasn't Martin on the phone with his girlfriend? I think the typical male mentality would be not to say to his girlfriend he was scared even if he was about to pee his pants. 

I'm not saying Zimmerman is a murderer, I just don't think Martin was the evil doer that got what he deserved. I honestly think both individuals probably misunderstood the situation and both reacted poorly to it. 

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SandwichLord"]

Martin did refer to Zimmerman as "crazy", right? That suggests he felt somewhat threatened. Saying, "There's a crazy person following me," definitely sounds more troubling than just, "There's a person following me." Also, Martin dropped his phone before the any violence took place. Isn't it natural to drop something you are carrying when you are scared or shocked? Maybe he saw the gun and dropped his phone. I think it's more believable to have seen the gun at the beginning of the confrontation than while he was actually fighting Zimmerman, since his attacks were concentrated on Zimmerman's head. 

SandwichLord

If you are, say, in the woods, and talking to a friend on the phone, and you notice a grizzly bear behind you, and you say to your friend on the phone, "There's a bear behind me," we could assume you are afraid of the bear even though you didn't say you were afraid. It's probably a poor analogy, but I think it gets my point across; you don't have to state that you are afraid in order to be afraid. I doubt Zimmerman said, "I'm afraid I'm going to die so I'm going to shoot this guy." He feared for his life and he did it. The fact that Martin mentioned he was being followed shows that he was concerned, doesn't it? Also, wasn't Martin on the phone with his girlfriend? I think the typical male mentality would be not to say to his girlfriend he was scared even if he was about to pee his pants. 

I'm not saying Zimmerman is a murderer, I just don't think Martin was the evil doer that got what he deserved. I honestly think both individuals probably misunderstood the situation and both reacted poorly to it. 

looks like this trial will be over soon.. the states own witness proved zimmerman used self defense

I would like to see pictures of TM's fists/knuckles/hands. I think they wrestled more than anything. Both put their hands on each other but one had the gun.gago-gago

you dont have to see pictures of his hands.. you can see pictures of zimmermans face

looks like this trial will be over soon.. the states own witness proved zimmerman used self defense

Flubbbs

[QUOTE="gago-gago"]I would like to see pictures of TM's fists/knuckles/hands. I think they wrestled more than anything. Both put their hands on each other but one had the gun.Flubbbs

you dont have to see pictures of his hands.. you can see pictures of zimmermans face

I would like to see pictures of TM's fists/knuckles/hands. I think they wrestled more than anything. Both put their hands on each other but one had the gun.gago-gago

Of for f*cks sake. First off I wouldn't be casually talking on the phone. And TM did enough talking about the creep ass cracker that he'd have mentioned if he was afraid of him. And why do you discount it when GZ told 911 he lost sight and was heading back to his car to meet the police? Selective memory?LJS9502_basic

Obviously if I include that, it doesn't fit with my speculation of how events might have happened. A prosecutor will discount any evidence that might go against his case and a defense attorney will do the same. Zimmerman could have been lying when he said he was going back to his car. Martin could have been lying when he said he was by his father's fiancee's house and Zimmerman was right behind him. But both stories agree that Zimmerman acknowledged he was following Martin and Martin informed his friend that Zimmerman was following him. So that's what I used as the starting point. :)

I think it's a better story than saying Zimmerman randomly decided to hunt down and kill a guy walking home, or that Martin decided to randomly follow a guy that was following him and attempt to beat him to death.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Of for f*cks sake. First off I wouldn't be casually talking on the phone. And TM did enough talking about the creep ass cracker that he'd have mentioned if he was afraid of him. And why do you discount it when GZ told 911 he lost sight and was heading back to his car to meet the police? Selective memory?SandwichLord

Obviously if I include that, it doesn't fit with my speculation of how events might have happened. A prosecutor will discount any evidence that might go against his case and a defense attorney will do the same. Zimmerman could have been lying when he said he was going back to his car. Martin could have been lying when he said he was by his father's fiancee's house and Zimmerman was right behind him. But both stories agree that Zimmerman acknowledged he was following Martin and Martin informed his friend that Zimmerman was following him. So that's what I used as the starting point. :)

I think it's a better story than saying Zimmerman randomly decided to hunt down and kill a guy walking home, or that Martin decided to randomly follow a guy that was following him and attempt to beat him to death.

[QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

looks like this trial will be over soon.. the states own witness proved zimmerman used self defense

gago-gago

you mean the witness who admitted to lying under oath twice?

[QUOTE="gago-gago"][QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

looks like this trial will be over soon.. the states own witness proved zimmerman used self defense

Flubbbs

you mean the witness who admitted to lying under oath twice?

[QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

[QUOTE="gago-gago"]They would need GZ to get on the stand and explain it himself since that witness that look like Precious stated GZ was the one to confront TM first.gago-gago

you mean the witness who admitted to lying under oath twice?

[QUOTE="gago-gago"][QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

you mean the witness who admitted to lying under oath twice?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

looks like this trial will be over soon.. the states own witness proved zimmerman used self defense

gago-gago

[QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

[QUOTE="gago-gago"]I would like to see pictures of TM's fists/knuckles/hands. I think they wrestled more than anything. Both put their hands on each other but one had the gun.gago-gago

you dont have to see pictures of his hands.. you can see pictures of zimmermans face

[QUOTE="gago-gago"][QUOTE="Flubbbs"]

you dont have to see pictures of his hands.. you can see pictures of zimmermans face

BMD004

And follow them home too right. No wonder TM was creeped out. TM was afraid or creeped out that's why he tried to get away from the rapist or creepy man following him.gago-gago

This is how we know you do not know what the hell you are talking about. Where was George Zimmerman ever accused or actually was a rapist? Admit it, you are letting emotion control how you feel about this case and not paying attention to the facts of the case. 

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

Zimmerman claimed he lost sight of Martin and was headed back to his car. That would indicate that he never approached Martin to begin with. 

MgamerBD

So the police tape that has those exact words on it are lying? 

[QUOTE="genfactor"] Trayvon most likely did it in self-defense. Just because lost a fist fight you picked doesn't make you the non-aggressor.gago-gago

You, as well as everyone else should listen to the actual 911 call from George Zimmerman. You can hear that the dispatcher told him that he shouldn't follow Trayvon. No where does it say that he can't follow or not to follow Martin. It also reveals that Trayvon started to walk towards George while he was in his vehicle then decided to turn around and run away (this is where George got out of his car to follow him and told he shouldn't do that).

It also shows that he couldn't find him and was going to meet the police officer that was on the way back. Now, we know Trayvon was on the phone with someone who already admitted that she does not know who threw the first punch. Also, Trayvon had the ability to call 911 himself (as I have asserted before) that if he was worried enough to call someone and "creepy ass cracker" (a racist statement), he should have hung up and called the police himself and not possibly gone back and confront Zimmerman himself.