French Senate passes ban on full Muslim veils

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topsemag55

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#1 topsemag55
Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

PARIS — The French Senate on Tuesday overwhelmingly passed a bill banning the burqa-style Islamic veil in public, but the leaders of both parliamentary houses said they had asked a special council to first ensure the measure passes constitutional muster amid concerns its tramples on religious freedoms.

The Senate voted 246 to 1 Tuesday in favor of the bill, which has already passed in the lower chamber, the National Assembly. It will need President Nicolas Sarkozy's signature.

Legislative leaders said they wanted the Constitutional Council to examine it.

The measure affects less than 2,000 women.

France would be the first European country to pass such a law though others, notably neighboring Belgium, are considering laws against face-covering veils, seen as anathema to the local culture.

Story here

Thoughts?

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ghoklebutter

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#2 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
I'm a Muslim, but I honestly think that my fellow Muslims have to adapt to other cultures. Why can't they just wear headscarves? Though I am against banning an article of clothing.
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metroidfood

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#3 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

Freedom of religion and expression.

(unless you're Muslim)

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kidsmelly

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#4 kidsmelly
Member since 2009 • 5692 Posts

Useless they need to ban women from wearing shirts.

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TheShadowLord07

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#5 TheShadowLord07
Member since 2006 • 23083 Posts

I'm wonder here. has france ever had a problem being attack by terrorist or have people ever commit crimes using the full veils? because thats the only reason why I would see they would banned it.

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LaPiyamasDeGato

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#6 LaPiyamasDeGato
Member since 2010 • 32 Posts
Another freedom gone in the name of safety. I am appalled by this.
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foxhound_fox

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#7 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Any "religious freedom" that could endanger public and/or national security should not be allowed. It is good that they have passed this and are going for a full ban. Anyone should not be allowed to cover their face in public, no matter what religion they might be practicing.

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metroidfood

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#8 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

Any "religious freedom" that could endanger public and/or national security should not be allowed. It is good that they have passed this and are going for a full ban. Anyone should not be allowed to cover their face in public, no matter what religion they might be practicing.

foxhound_fox

Yeah, just look at this terrorist hiding in plain sight.

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LaPiyamasDeGato

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#9 LaPiyamasDeGato
Member since 2010 • 32 Posts

Any "religious freedom" that could endanger public and/or national security should not be allowed. It is good that they have passed this and are going for a full ban. Anyone should not be allowed to cover their face in public, no matter what religion they might be practicing.

foxhound_fox
Freedom inevtably will present more security risks than a society that is completely controlled, but if we set a precedent for the gov't to do whatever they wish in the name of national security then where does it stop?
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PBSnipes

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#10 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

It's a tough issue. On the one hand it's obviously important to protect freedom of religion, and to tell a woman that she can't wear something designed for modesty is pretty damn ridiculous. On the other there are the security concerns (although they seem overblown -- so long as the woman is willing to show her face for ID checks the veil shouldn't be much of an issue), and it's hard to defend something so obviously rooted in misogyny.

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th3warr1or

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#11 th3warr1or
Member since 2007 • 20637 Posts
Another freedom gone in the name of safety. I am appalled by this. LaPiyamasDeGato
France is NOT the United States.
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LaPiyamasDeGato

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#12 LaPiyamasDeGato
Member since 2010 • 32 Posts
[QUOTE="LaPiyamasDeGato"]Another freedom gone in the name of safety. I am appalled by this. th3warr1or
France is NOT the United States.

I never said it was dear
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T_REX305

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#13 T_REX305
Member since 2010 • 11304 Posts

oh boy. more storys about Muslim's.

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GazaAli

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#14 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
Their country, their rules, simple as that. Also, I hate the veil with a passion.
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Theokhoth

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#15 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
That rumbling you hear is the entire country of France making a giant leap backwards.
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topsemag55

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#16 topsemag55
Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

oh boy. more storys about Muslim's.

T_REX305

Just off of the presses, too...the story was posted just over 1 hour ago.

Now all the French need is a pass on constitutionality, and their prez's signature.

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Fried_Shrimp

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#17 Fried_Shrimp
Member since 2009 • 2902 Posts
France is NOT the United States. th3warr1or
No but they are practically the same.
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topsemag55

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#18 topsemag55
Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

[QUOTE="th3warr1or"]France is NOT the United States. Fried_Shrimp
No but they are practically the same.

Hardly...the only way this would become law in the U.S. is if someone committed a horrendous crime while wearing one.

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Theokhoth

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#21 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="Fried_Shrimp"][QUOTE="th3warr1or"]France is NOT the United States. topsemag55

No but they are practically the same.

Hardly...the only way this would become law in the U.S. is if someone committed a horrendous crime while wearing one.

Hopefully this will never become law in the U.S even if that happens.
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bobaban

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#23 bobaban
Member since 2005 • 10560 Posts
Hopefully North America and the rest of the western world follows this.
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metroidfood

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#24 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

French are Bigots!

Seriously, if they felt it was taking over their culture Good for them.

Snipes_2

Wait, so if they don't like another culture they can just ban it, personal liberties be damned?

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Snipes_2

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#25 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]That rumbling you hear is the entire country of France making a giant leap backwards.EdenProxy
Why? Because instead of falling into the silly "Everyone has the right to do whatever they want crap" there protecting there ppl. ANd why cant a country limit what ppl wear. Countries shouldnt be changes for others. New citizens should change for the country.

I agree, They should conform to the norms of that society (Clothing Wise in this case, Laws etc..).
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Theokhoth

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#26 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]That rumbling you hear is the entire country of France making a giant leap backwards.EdenProxy
Why? Because instead of falling into the silly "Everyone has the right to do whatever they want crap" there protecting there ppl. ANd why cant a country limit what ppl wear. Countries shouldnt be changes for others. New citizens should change for the country.

Oh yes, those evil clothes have been terrorizing people for ages! :roll: Nobody's telling France to change. How the **** are they telling France to change by WEARING A GODDAMN VEIL?
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LaPiyamasDeGato

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#27 LaPiyamasDeGato
Member since 2010 • 32 Posts
I think this is applicable: First, they came for the Jews. But I was not a Jew, so I did not speak up. Then they came for the communists. But I was not a communist, so I did not speak up. Then they came for the trade unionists. But I was not a trade unionist, so I did not speak up. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me
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Snipes_2

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#28 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

French are Bigots!

Seriously, if they felt it was taking over their culture Good for them.

metroidfood

Wait, so if they don't like another culture they can just ban it, personal liberties be damned?

No, it has to do with the law. They can't identify people when they wear those things.
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Immortalica

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#30 Immortalica
Member since 2008 • 6309 Posts
Good job France.
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Doom_HellKnight

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#31 Doom_HellKnight
Member since 2005 • 12217 Posts
Good. Now, if only my country would follow suite.
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Theokhoth

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#32 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Freedom doesnt mean you cn do whatever you want. I cant run down the streets naked while throwing turkys in the name of freedom.

Freedom =/= anarchy

EdenProxy
Nobody's saying it is. :|
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GazaAli

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#33 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
[QUOTE="EdenProxy"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]That rumbling you hear is the entire country of France making a giant leap backwards.Snipes_2
Why? Because instead of falling into the silly "Everyone has the right to do whatever they want crap" there protecting there ppl. ANd why cant a country limit what ppl wear. Countries shouldnt be changes for others. New citizens should change for the country.

I agree, They should conform to the norms of that society (Clothing Wise in this case, Laws etc..).

I'm sorry to say this, but isn't this hypocrisy? I'm not condemning the french for their decision at all, but the way you guys put it is totally hypocritical.
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metroidfood

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#34 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

[QUOTE="metroidfood"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

French are Bigots!

Seriously, if they felt it was taking over their culture Good for them.

Snipes_2

Wait, so if they don't like another culture they can just ban it, personal liberties be damned?

No, it has to do with the law. They can't identify people when they wear those things.

You can't identify people when they wear a lot of things.

But I don't see them banning Halloween costumes.

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deactivated-5e97585ea928c

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#36 deactivated-5e97585ea928c
Member since 2006 • 8521 Posts

This just seems like a stab at the cultures that use such things in a "HAH that's what you get for taking over our country" xenophobic way, or an attempt to lower immigration. I can hardly see how this would be a legitimate security concern..

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Theokhoth

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#37 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
I wonder how many of the people here wanting to ban the veil (especially on the grounds of protecting citizens) would also support banning firearms. . .
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SaudiFury

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#38 SaudiFury
Member since 2007 • 8709 Posts

The niqab isn't even wholly endorsed in the Quran even. it stems from the pre-Islamic Arabian culture (and it wasn't always just this black thing, you can find colored ornate ones around the entire Arab world prior to the rise of fundamentalism).

prior to that rise in the 70's (to what we are dealing with now).

of the three verses (which for some reason i cannot find them argh....) that has anything to with women garments. Nothing states mandatory for the niqab. it explictly states women to cover their 'ornaments' (if you can't figure this out well....) from non-related family. it explicitly states to cover their bosum's with their garments (which in most societies isn't hard to ask). and lastly, only implicitly calls for the hijab.

There is a difference between niqab and hijab if people don't know.

(girls wearing the hijab are actually friends of mine...)

Not even in conservative Saudi Arabia do they require the niqab. they do require hijab and abaya for women though... so it's not like there is a hell of a lot of options for women yet, but they don't require the niqab.

I don't know though as far as the bill goes. I've never been a fan of the niqab myself, and i've teased my cousins who wear it with the joke "who are you?" when i'm back in Saudi. I have an aunt in-law, who wears the hijab, niqab, gloves the whole thing, and she refuses to come to the US unless she can wear that the whole time on her trip. My mother, my father and I were telling her it'd only create more unwanted attention for her in the West if she came dressed like that (which is true). but she wouldn't have it and she insisted what she was doing was correct.

My problem with the bill is that right now in France the secular-thumpers are railing against anything the Muslims ask for. There was an article on Yahoo a while back talking about has French dialog become Anti-Muslim and they were citing instances in France recently. in one case a group of vegetarians were asking the schools for alternative choice of food to eat at the schools. One of the members deciding on it railed against it because if they gave the vegetarians what they want it would be construed (somehow) as a victory to Muslims who have asking for halal food options at the school.

As far as the niqab goes, i don't care it's not Islamic despite what other Muslims may tell you. if the estimates are right and France's 10% are Muslims, then the less then 2000 female members who wear the niqab are told they can't. I'm not a magician but it makes me wonder how in the US the vast majority of Muslim communities i've been to assimilate (while retaining their cultural and religious heritages in some capacity) a lot better, then i've ever read or watched of Europe.

It could open the way for a more liberal Islam to take root in Europe, or it could backfire. I would rather be the optimist but i really don't know.

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KlepticGrooves

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#39 KlepticGrooves
Member since 2010 • 2448 Posts

You can't walk into a shop with your face covered by Balaclava, so why should you be able to wear a face veil? I see many Muslim women coming out of the Mosque down the road from me, and pretty much every single one of them have a headscalf on, not a face veil.

People living in France should adapt to French values.

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bobaban

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#41 bobaban
Member since 2005 • 10560 Posts
[QUOTE="EdenProxy"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]That rumbling you hear is the entire country of France making a giant leap backwards.Theokhoth
Why? Because instead of falling into the silly "Everyone has the right to do whatever they want crap" there protecting there ppl. ANd why cant a country limit what ppl wear. Countries shouldnt be changes for others. New citizens should change for the country.

Oh yes, those evil clothes have been terrorizing people for ages! :roll: Nobody's telling France to change. How the **** are they telling France to change by WEARING A GODDAMN VEIL?

France is very supportive of this motion, 246 to 1. So I think France can do what France wants. Besides a veil is a symbol of oppression against women, NO MATTER what the Koran says. They cannot embrace a women's sexuality so they need to hide and contain it as much as possible.
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MaxPred2010

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#42 MaxPred2010
Member since 2010 • 547 Posts
Finally France is getting things right.
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Theokhoth

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#43 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

You can't walk into a shop with your face covered by Balaclava, so why should you be able to wear a face veil? I see many Muslim women coming out of the Mosque down the road from me, and pretty much every single one of them have a headscalf on, not a face veil.

People living in France should adapt to French values.

KlepticGrooves
French values include personal liberty to hold whatever values you ****ing want.
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Theokhoth

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#44 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="bobaban"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="EdenProxy"] Why? Because instead of falling into the silly "Everyone has the right to do whatever they want crap" there protecting there ppl. ANd why cant a country limit what ppl wear. Countries shouldnt be changes for others. New citizens should change for the country.

Oh yes, those evil clothes have been terrorizing people for ages! :roll: Nobody's telling France to change. How the **** are they telling France to change by WEARING A GODDAMN VEIL?

France is very supportive of this motion, 246 to 1. So I think France can do what France wants. Besides a veil is a symbol of oppression against women, NO MATTER what the Koran says. They cannot embrace a women's sexuality so they need to hide and contain it as much as possible.

Yes, the majority wants it, so there. :| A veil is a piece of clothing. YOU Think it's a symbol of oppression; a Muslim woman wearing it may think it's a symbol for humility in the eyes of God. Why should your interpretation be law?
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#45 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

Simple solution for the French would be to just cut back on the amount of Arabs they allow in every year, they can keep their french heritage etc. I can see the US and Canada are cultural mosaics so we must be tolerant to others, but in Europe, accept European customs or leave...I would expect the same treatment in the middle east if I wasen't wearing appropriate clothing.KlownMaster

This law passing has nothign to do with stopping people of Arabic or African decent from coming into the country.. To me this seems like a common sense thing.. Furthermore its a cultural thing, and countries have banned cultural practices in the past.. Such as female circumcision.

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Theokhoth

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#46 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
Simple solution for the French would be to just cut back on the amount of Arabs they allow in every year, they can keep their french heritage etc. I can see the US and Canada are cultural mosaics so we must be tolerant to others, but in Europe, accept European customs or leave...I would expect the same treatment in the middle east if I wasen't wearing appropriate clothing.KlownMaster
Yes, I would totally expect to be treated the same in the Middle East as I would be in EUROPE.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#47 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="bobaban"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Oh yes, those evil clothes have been terrorizing people for ages! :roll: Nobody's telling France to change. How the **** are they telling France to change by WEARING A GODDAMN VEIL?Theokhoth
France is very supportive of this motion, 246 to 1. So I think France can do what France wants. Besides a veil is a symbol of oppression against women, NO MATTER what the Koran says. They cannot embrace a women's sexuality so they need to hide and contain it as much as possible.

Yes, the majority wants it, so there. :| A veil is a piece of clothing. YOU Think it's a symbol of oppression; a Muslim woman wearing it may think it's a symbol for humility in the eyes of God. Why should your interpretation be law?

... And I am certain thats what women thought centuries ago as well.. In a male dominated society.. Most of these women have no choice in teh matter and have been taught this as the only suitable choice.. Now not suggesting they are all like that.. In teh end though I woudla gree, except it is a secuirty risk.. Some viels cover the entire face to the point you can't even tell what color their eyes are! And they are fully welcome to wear the rest of their clothing thats religious related.. But I completely understand the security issue with the veil which can literally cover the entire face..

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Theokhoth

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#48 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="KlownMaster"]Simple solution for the French would be to just cut back on the amount of Arabs they allow in every year, they can keep their french heritage etc. I can see the US and Canada are cultural mosaics so we must be tolerant to others, but in Europe, accept European customs or leave...I would expect the same treatment in the middle east if I wasen't wearing appropriate clothing.sSubZerOo

This law passing has nothign to do with stopping people of Arabic or African decent from coming into the country.. To me this seems like a common sense thing.. Furthermore its a cultural thing, and countries have banned cultural practices in the past.. Such as female circumcision.

Unlike clothing, female circumcision is harmful.
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GazaAli

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#49 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
Now we begin to talk whatever we want. first the Quran says nothing about the veil. Second, I did not know majority means legitimacy. Third, I thought the west is about absolute freedom.
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Oleg_Huzwog

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#50 Oleg_Huzwog
Member since 2007 • 21885 Posts

I assume masks are banned as well?