Harvard University Confirms: 4th of July is Just Right-Wing Social Engineering

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

I think you're just overanalyzing the holiday...

taj7575

I think you're just underanalyzing the holiday...

No, you're overanalyzing the holiday..

I conclude in my analysis of your conclusion of overanalysis that you have underanalized the potential value of analysis...

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Nope, but he's criticizing others for doing the opposite of what I said.

ImaPirate0202

No, he's not. He basically said that patriotism is an inane concept. He never took anybody to task for being animated people with opinions that may offend.

Yes, by labeling people who celebrate the holiday as tools.

Even if he did label them tools, when did he say anything about being a robot that doesn't offend anybody?

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

No, he's not. He basically said that patriotism is an inane concept. He never took anybody to task for being animated people with opinions that may offend.

GreySeal9

Yes, by labeling people who celebrate the holiday as tools.

Even if he did label them tools, when did he say anything about being a robot that doesn't offend anybody?

You can read. Go back a few pages.

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]Why do you think people set off fireworks? Why do you think it's called Independence Day? Like a lot of holidays, the celebrations have lost meaning. But it doesn't change the fact that the holiday is celebrating America's independence.

LJS9502_basic

And Christmas is celebrating Cronos' role as the father of the gods who rule earth, doesn't stop millions of Christians from celebrating Jesus' birth on that day instead.

No, but the title Saturnalia does, and the calculation of when to celebrate Christmas is taken from the calculation of when to celebrate Saturnalia, therefore the original purpose of the holiday has changed over time, just like the original purpose of the fourth can change over time.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Yes, by labeling people who celebrate the holiday as tools.

ImaPirate0202

Even if he did label them tools, when did he say anything about being a robot that doesn't offend anybody?

You can read. Go back a few pages.

I've read the entire thread.

When does he critisize people for not being robots that don't offend anybody?

You claimed that he said this, so it's up to you to prove it. So show me a quote where he says that.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

And Christmas is celebrating Cronos' role as the father of the gods who rule earth, doesn't stop millions of Christians from celebrating Jesus' birth on that day instead.

theone86

No, but the title Saturnalia does, and the calculation of when to celebrate Christmas is taken from the calculation of when to celebrate Saturnalia, therefore the original purpose of the holiday has changed over time, just like the original purpose of the fourth can change over time.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Yep... we should all be unemotional robots as not to offend anybody.

ImaPirate0202

The only problem is theone never said anything about not offending anybody.

Nope, but he's criticizing others for doing the opposite of what I said.

No I'm not, in fact I think I specifically criticized people who don't show emotion except on their little planned out, acceptable dates.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

And Christmas is celebrating Cronos' role as the father of the gods who rule earth, doesn't stop millions of Christians from celebrating Jesus' birth on that day instead.

theone86

No, but the title Saturnalia does, and the calculation of when to celebrate Christmas is taken from the calculation of when to celebrate Saturnalia, therefore the original purpose of the holiday has changed over time, just like the original purpose of the fourth can change over time.

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

ImaPirate0202

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

Should we ban 4th of July celebrations?

moneymatterz

i hope thats a joke

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

GreySeal9

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]I find overly patriotism to be sign of a weak culture and society that needs external symbols to constantly be remainded what they are and where they belong. It is not different from a person that is extremely insecure so he/she needs to keep talking about how much they have achieved to reafirm their identity. Those kind of people don't inspire a lot of confidence and so it's a nation that constantly keeps reminding others and themselves how good and glorious they are. A person or a nation with a strong consolidated identity doesn't need to keep reminding anyone about who they are because they know who they are and they are confortable with it.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="kuraimen"]I find overly patriotism to be sign of a weak culture and society that needs external symbols to constantly be remainded what they are and where they belong. It is not different from a person that is extremely insecure so he/she needs to keep talking about how much they have achieved to reafirm their identity. Those kind of people don't inspire a lot of confidence and so it's a nation that constantly keeps reminding others and themselves how good and glorious they are. A person or a nation with a strong consolidated identity doesn't need to keep reminding anyone about who they are because they know who they are and they are confortable with it.kuraimen

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

LJS9502_basic

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

I all ready told you, I see no reason to believe that's true.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Social engineering, no. A bunch of patriotic bull**** meant to inspire blind enthusiasm at best and jingoism at worst, yes. Frankly, I find patriotism to be a rather inane concept, basically being proud of something for the sake of being proud of it regardless of whether or not it's actually a good thing or a bad thing. It's nothing, though, that ****tacular summer blockbusters made by immature manchildren with hard-ons for angsty jerks who have a strictly linear moral compass don't do. The fouth is simply a Micheal Bay movie without an explicit narrative.

imaps3fanboy

Yea! Screw all of our ancestors that died in war to keep America a free nation!

But then again, it was only by chance we were born into their lineage. So I shouldn't be proud of that either :roll:

How do you define free nation? Because in my estimation not many, if any ancestors died to keep America a free nation. They have pretty much all died to keep America a rich nation, a rich nation at the expense of other nations-of native Americans, of Mexicans, of Cubans, of Pacific Islanders, of Koreans, of Iraqis, etc., etc. And yes it was only by chance you were bron into that lineage, and you should only be as proud of that as you are of winning at craps, and personally it's a lineage I'd rather not be a part of in the first place, but hey, when life gives you lemons...

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

GreySeal9

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

GreySeal9

I all ready told you, I see no reason to believe that's true.

I believe the democratic party is already petioning to have the 4th removed from July. The american flag is also a propaganda tool of the right wing and should be replaced with a banner of a vegan colony and a bicycle.

sonicare

Fixed that for you. :P

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]Because when somebody shows a hint of pride or bias, it is seen as bad. For example, a politically correct person would say nobody in any country should be very patriotic about where they come from because no country is better than another country.

BMD004

But did theone says any of this? No, he didn't, so you're just jumping to conclusions.

The statement itself is not politically correct. It is only when you add stuff that theone never said that it becomes PC.

Definition of patriotism: love or devotion to one's country.

So if he thinks love of your country is an inane concept, and that the celebration of your country is "patriotic bull****", then we can assume that he doesn't want anybody to be patriotic or proud of where they come from. It's not the leap you are making it out to be.

Whoo-hoo, more cutting and pasting my words out of context and more putting words into my mouth! My point was, if you read the entire quote, that patriotism is more often than not invoked in a dogmatic and completely blind manner, and that it's this dogmatic ideal of patriotism that is completely inane.

Here is something relevant to the analysis of this phenomenon

The Founding Fathers, unzipped

and I quote:

But it is those who reduce history's hard and honest reckonings to exceptionalist chest-thumping who will be the true agents of degeneration.

When these kind of celebrations turn into a chest-thumping show without an ounce of historical analysis and criticism then I find them quite pathetic. To finish the quote:

As one of Jefferson's favorite books, Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, so luminously argued, there is no surer sign of a country's cultural and political decay than an obtuse blindness to its unmistakable beginnings.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

BMD004

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

That has nothing to do with political correctness.

After all, you said the PCness is about not offending people. Thinking it's stupid to blindly support a team is not inherently tied to not offending people. And theone never said anything about not offending people.

YEAH.

Those high percentages cannot be ignored!!!1one

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

GreySeal9

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

Actually, I kind of agree. Atleast, it's probably not the words I would have used.

As I said before the other poster is just overanalyzing the holiday. Probably for attention, or something.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Again it depends on the audience. In OT....it's PC to hate on patriotism.LJS9502_basic

I all ready told you, I see no reason to believe that's true.

And unless you post those threads (and not just one or two), I'm going to go on thinking your claim is BS.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

EDIT: Actually, that statement was in support of BMD004's definition of being politically correct.

ImaPirate0202

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

Actually, I kind of agree. Atleast, it's probably not the words I would have used.

As I said before the other poster is just overanalyzing the holiday. Probably for attention, or something.

You have no way of knowing his intentions. Maybe it's just how he really feels? Ever consider that?

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Social engineering, no. A bunch of patriotic bull**** meant to inspire blind enthusiasm at best and jingoism at worst, yes. Frankly, I find patriotism to be a rather inane concept, basically being proud of something for the sake of being proud of it regardless of whether or not it's actually a good thing or a bad thing. It's nothing, though, that ****tacular summer blockbusters made by immature manchildren with hard-ons for angsty jerks who have a strictly linear moral compass don't do. The fouth is simply a Micheal Bay movie without an explicit narrative.

theone86

Yea! Screw all of our ancestors that died in war to keep America a free nation!

But then again, it was only by chance we were born into their lineage. So I shouldn't be proud of that either :roll:

How do you define free nation? Because in my estimation not many, if any ancestors died to keep America a free nation. They have pretty much all died to keep America a rich nation, a rich nation at the expense of other nations-of native Americans, of Mexicans, of Cubans, of Pacific Islanders, of Koreans, of Iraqis, etc., etc. And yes it was only by chance you were bron into that lineage, and you should only be as proud of that as you are of winning at craps, and personally it's a lineage I'd rather not be a part of in the first place, but hey, when life gives you lemons...

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

The problem is that he was just putting the PC card into play where it doesn't really belong. Theone's statement was anything but politically correct.

GreySeal9

Actually, I kind of agree. Atleast, it's probably not the words I would have used.

As I said before the other poster is just overanalyzing the holiday. Probably for attention, or something.

You have no way of knowing his intentions. Maybe it's just how he really feels? Ever consider that?

Honestly, he's just sounding like a rebellious teenager who hates the system.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I all ready told you, I see no reason to believe that's true.

GreySeal9

And unless you post those threads (and not just one or two), I'm going to go on thinking your claim is BS.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Except the title Christmas doesn't refer to Cronos.:|LJS9502_basic

No, but the title Saturnalia does, and the calculation of when to celebrate Christmas is taken from the calculation of when to celebrate Saturnalia, therefore the original purpose of the holiday has changed over time, just like the original purpose of the fourth can change over time.

It's not a matter of meaning different things in different customs, Saturnalia was actually practiced for quite a while under Christian Rome. It was a calculated decision to have Christmas fall on Saturnalia as a way of changing the meaning of the holiday, which it did, which supports my original point that the meaning of holidays can change over time.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Actually, I kind of agree. Atleast, it's probably not the words I would have used.

As I said before the other poster is just overanalyzing the holiday. Probably for attention, or something.

ImaPirate0202

You have no way of knowing his intentions. Maybe it's just how he really feels? Ever consider that?

Honestly, he's just sounding like a rebellious teenager who hates the system.

To me, this sounds sort of ad homenish.

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

You have no way of knowing his intentions. Maybe it's just how he really feels? Ever consider that?

GreySeal9

Honestly, he's just sounding like a rebellious teenager who hates the system.

To me, this sounds sort of ad homenish.

I would address the points he's making but I just can't take them seriously.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Except the title Christmas doesn't refer to Cronos.:|BMD004

No, but the title Saturnalia does, and the calculation of when to celebrate Christmas is taken from the calculation of when to celebrate Saturnalia, therefore the original purpose of the holiday has changed over time, just like the original purpose of the fourth can change over time.

Is that what you ask everyone who makes a point you can't counter?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Then I imagine you haven't been reading some of the threads I've seen....LJS9502_basic

And unless you post those threads (and not just one or two), I'm going to go on thinking your claim is BS.

I don't see how what you know is even slightly relevant.

On its face, theone's statement was not PC.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

No, but the title Saturnalia does, and the calculation of when to celebrate Christmas is taken from the calculation of when to celebrate Saturnalia, therefore the original purpose of the holiday has changed over time, just like the original purpose of the fourth can change over time.

theone86

It's not a matter of meaning different things in different customs, Saturnalia was actually practiced for quite a while under Christian Rome. It was a calculated decision to have Christmas fall on Saturnalia as a way of changing the meaning of the holiday, which it did, which supports my original point that the meaning of holidays can change over time.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Honestly, he's just sounding like a rebellious teenager who hates the system.

ImaPirate0202

To me, this sounds sort of ad homenish.

I would address the points he's making but I just can't take them seriously.

If you're not going to address the points, then aren't you just trolling?

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

To me, this sounds sort of ad homenish.

GreySeal9

I would address the points he's making but I just can't take them seriously.

If you're not going to address the points, then aren't you just trolling?

I don't know... is giving one's opinion a violation of the TOU?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Actually, I kind of agree. Atleast, it's probably not the words I would have used.

As I said before the other poster is just overanalyzing the holiday. Probably for attention, or something.

ImaPirate0202

You have no way of knowing his intentions. Maybe it's just how he really feels? Ever consider that?

Honestly, he's just sounding like a rebellious teenager who hates the system.

Read the SN dude, not a teenager, and I don't hate the system. The system, however, is only one part of a larger whole, the thesis, and I am merely speaking for the antithesis. I'm surprised that someone with Orwell in their sig could have such a lack of appreciation for non-unilateral dialogue.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

I would address the points he's making but I just can't take them seriously.

ImaPirate0202

If you're not going to address the points, then aren't you just trolling?

I don't know... is giving one's opinion a violation of the TOU?

Not at all. But would you deny that the "rebellious teenager" stuff is starting to get into troll terrority?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"]

Yea! Screw all of our ancestors that died in war to keep America a free nation!

But then again, it was only by chance we were born into their lineage. So I shouldn't be proud of that either :roll:

imaps3fanboy

How do you define free nation? Because in my estimation not many, if any ancestors died to keep America a free nation. They have pretty much all died to keep America a rich nation, a rich nation at the expense of other nations-of native Americans, of Mexicans, of Cubans, of Pacific Islanders, of Koreans, of Iraqis, etc., etc. And yes it was only by chance you were bron into that lineage, and you should only be as proud of that as you are of winning at craps, and personally it's a lineage I'd rather not be a part of in the first place, but hey, when life gives you lemons...

It's pessimistic when contrasted with blind optimism, but I prefer to think of it as a realist ideology.

Lmfao what a bunch of garbage. Pretty sure the left wing brainwashing of the public school system influences kids into becoming Democrats way more than 4th of July makes people into Republicans.

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

If you're not going to address the points, then aren't you just trolling?

GreySeal9

I don't know... is giving one's opinion a violation of the TOU?

Not at all. But would you deny that the "rebellious teenager" stuff is starting to get into troll terrority?

Perhaps I should have been more... politically correct:P

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

Honestly, he's just sounding like a rebellious teenager who hates the system.

ImaPirate0202

To me, this sounds sort of ad homenish.

I would address the points he's making but I just can't take them seriously.

And is that my problem or yours?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Dates mean different things in different customs. So what?LJS9502_basic

It's not a matter of meaning different things in different customs, Saturnalia was actually practiced for quite a while under Christian Rome. It was a calculated decision to have Christmas fall on Saturnalia as a way of changing the meaning of the holiday, which it did, which supports my original point that the meaning of holidays can change over time.

No it's not, it's the same celebration, different meaning behind it.

Lmfao what a bunch of garbage. Pretty sure the left wing brainwashing of the public school system influences kids into becoming Democrats way more than 4th of July makes people into Republicans.

yahtzo900

[QUOTE="ImaPirate0202"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

To me, this sounds sort of ad homenish.

theone86

I would address the points he's making but I just can't take them seriously.

And is that my problem or yours?

Considering you guys are now talking about the meaning of christmas... I'll let you figure that out.

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"][QUOTE="theone86"]

How do you define free nation? Because in my estimation not many, if any ancestors died to keep America a free nation. They have pretty much all died to keep America a rich nation, a rich nation at the expense of other nations-of native Americans, of Mexicans, of Cubans, of Pacific Islanders, of Koreans, of Iraqis, etc., etc. And yes it was only by chance you were bron into that lineage, and you should only be as proud of that as you are of winning at craps, and personally it's a lineage I'd rather not be a part of in the first place, but hey, when life gives you lemons...

theone86

It's pessimistic when contrasted with blind optimism, but I prefer to think of it as a realist ideology.

such complete nonsense...

did it ever occur to them that democrats and republicans alike celebrate the 4th on the fact that we still live in a free country because of the signing of the declaration of independence and not because of our political standings?

Its like saying "oh man, you see those fireworks? thats what being a republican is allllll about! It totally has nothing to do with the fact that on this day 200 years ago, we took a stand against the british so that we could become a free country"

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="imaps3fanboy"] ....What? Can't tell if you just have an extremely pessimistic ideology, or if you're just trolling.imaps3fanboy

It's pessimistic when contrasted with blind optimism, but I prefer to think of it as a realist ideology.

I think you under-analyze things, it's a supposition based on perspective. A community get together implies purpose, a celebration implies purpose, once you have purpose you have something more than face value that can be analyzed, and once you add in beahvior you have far more that can be analyzed, so if you're saying that any analysis that goes beyond get together or celebration is an over-analysis then I would have to disagree, as such isn't really an analysis at all and therefore anything beyond can hardly be called overanalysis.