Harvard University Confirms: 4th of July is Just Right-Wing Social Engineering

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

I never expressly said there was anything wrong with people celebrating it, but saying that there is NO propaganda in fourth celebrations whatsoever is just patently false.

Pirate700

Because if I'm not proud of my country, then no one can be!

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] Way to completely miss the point of indenpendence day.sonicare

That depends on what you mean by the point. If by the point you mean what it was originally intended to be, a celebration of independence as a nation, then yes I missed the point. If you mean what it actually is in practice, an excuse for a bunch of people to get drunk off their asses and watch big explosions that make big sounds and use these manufactured images to force themselves to get all teary-eyed and emotional like a first-year drama student who just mastered crying at will, then I think I hit the nail on the head.

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Putting up streamers and decorating the town with the state's colors, singing songs glorifying the state, organizing marches and parades again glorifying the state, those are all tactics of propaganda. You can argue whether what they're aggrandizing is good or not, but there's no arguing that it's not propagnda.

theone86

And what is that good exactly? Do we get to pick and choose? I, for one, have never been to a fourth celebration where people celebrated anti-draft protests as people who helped do positive things, but almost every fourth celebration I've been to celebrates wars that I think were unnecessary and pointless as good things, so for me it is impossible to celebrate the good as what I consider the good is not celebrated and what I consider the bad is celebrated. Furthermore, why is America's independence something to be celebrated? Control of America for us meant one less degree of control of America for natives, why should independence for us be celebrated as good when it also meant subjugation for so many others? The fourth isn't about celebrating independence or good, it's about celebrating the status quo.

I. Have. No. Words. For. This.

But what can I expect? This is coming from the guy who thinks that it's unreasonable for the private Christian school he went to to say a prayer during graduation.:roll:

And what is that good exactly?

....

Control of America for us meant one less degree of control of America for natives, why should independence for us be celebrated as good when it also meant subjugation for so many others?

theone86

That is good for me.

He said "a bunch of people", not the entire country.

Teenaged

A bunch means a group. Which is what I was talking about when I made that statement.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]It is called Independence Day for a reason. You are celebrating America's independence. It's a time to celebrate the good that has happened in your country and the people who helped do positive things.

SpartanMSU

And what is that good exactly? Do we get to pick and choose? I, for one, have never been to a fourth celebration where people celebrated anti-draft protests as people who helped do positive things, but almost every fourth celebration I've been to celebrates wars that I think were unnecessary and pointless as good things, so for me it is impossible to celebrate the good as what I consider the good is not celebrated and what I consider the bad is celebrated. Furthermore, why is America's independence something to be celebrated? Control of America for us meant one less degree of control of America for natives, why should independence for us be celebrated as good when it also meant subjugation for so many others? The fourth isn't about celebrating independence or good, it's about celebrating the status quo.

I. Have. No. Words. For. This.

But what can I expect? This is coming from the guy who thinks that it's unreasonable for the private Christian school he went to to say a prayer during graduation.:roll:

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

He said "a bunch of people", not the entire country.

airshocker

A bunch means a group. Which is what I was talking about when I made that statement.

Please no....you're going down the road to a semantics argument.:(LJS9502_basic

What? I get chastised for not using words properly. Why shouldn't they?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Please no....you're going down the road to a semantics argument.:(airshocker

What? I get chastised for not using words properly. Why shouldn't they?

No I understood what you meant earlier....it's just that the majority of his arguments are semantics.LJS9502_basic

Oh, gotcha.

Wait, more to the point, why is the thread title implying that this is endorsed by the university when it's a study of a few of the professors there? Individual professors do not represent an entire university.

No I understood what you meant earlier....it's just that the majority of his arguments are semantics.LJS9502_basic

This made me chuckle.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

He said "a bunch of people", not the entire country.

airshocker

A bunch means a group. Which is what I was talking about when I made that statement.

Not a bunch or a group.

In the post of his you quoted he mentioned "a bunch of people" or a group of people if you prefer.

That doesnt negate his point B (like you claimed) where he said he didnt claim to know the motivations of the entire country.

Wait, more to the point, why is the thread title implying that this is endorsed by the university when it's a study of a few of the professors there? Individual professors do not represent an entire university.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No I understood what you meant earlier....it's just that the majority of his arguments are semantics.chessmaster1989

This made me chuckle.

Me too. Hyprocrisy is funny.

Wait, more to the point, why is the thread title implying that this is endorsed by the university when it's a study of a few of the professors there? Individual professors do not represent an entire university.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No I understood what you meant earlier....it's just that the majority of his arguments are semantics.chessmaster1989

This made me chuckle.

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]

[QUOTE="BMD004"]Like what? What kind of propoganda?

SpartanMSU

Because if I'm not proud of my country, then no one can be!

He didn't actually say that no one can be proud of their country, he just said that he thinks there's propoganda (which is debatable) and that patriotism is an inane concept.

I don't agree with everything he said (though I agree with a few things), but you guys really should stop putting words in his mouth. It just makes it look like you guys are super butthurt about a dissenting opinion.

Did it? Considering he drags me into them....I think we see the common denominator. Or did. I don't discuss semantics with him anymore.;)LJS9502_basic

Its a good thing for you I decided to let go of you recently.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Wait, more to the point, why is the thread title implying that this is endorsed by the university when it's a study of a few of the professors there? Individual professors do not represent an entire university.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No I understood what you meant earlier....it's just that the majority of his arguments are semantics.LJS9502_basic

This made me chuckle.

:roll:

the 4th of July is just part of the conservative media. :P

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Did it? Considering he drags me into them....I think we see the common denominator. Or did. I don't discuss semantics with him anymore.;)Teenaged

Its a good thing for you I decided to let go of you recently.

Take it easy....

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Did it? Considering he drags me into them....I think we see the common denominator. Or did. I don't discuss semantics with him anymore.;)LJS9502_basic

Its a good thing for you I decided to let go of you recently.

I'm so sorry, I didnt mean to do that to you.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]I didnt know I had such a power to me that you cant resist. :oops:

Its a good thing for you I decided to let go of you recently.

Teenaged

I'm so sorry, I didnt mean to do that to you.

:lol:

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]It's star spangled extravigence might make people proud of the country. It's just sickening. :x

GreySeal9

Because if I'm not proud of my country, then no one can be!

He didn't actually say that no one can be proud of their country, he just said that he thinks there's propoganda (which is debatable) and that patriotism is an inane concept.

I don't agree with everything he said (though I agree with a few things), but you guys really should stop putting words in his mouth. It just makes it look like you guys are super butthurt about a dissenting opinion.

But that's basically the attitude he's showing through his posts. It's like he has the mind of an immature teenager who thinks he's above everyone else.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Because if I'm not proud of my country, then no one can be!

SpartanMSU

He didn't actually say that no one can be proud of their country, he just said that he thinks there's propoganda (which is debatable) and that patriotism is an inane concept.

I don't agree with everything he said (though I agree with a few things), but you guys really should stop putting words in his mouth. It just makes it look like you guys are super butthurt about a dissenting opinion.

But that's basically the attitude he's showing through his posts. It's like he has the mind of an immature teenager who thinks he's above everyone else.

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

He didn't actually say that no one can be proud of their country, he just said that he thinks there's propoganda (which is debatable) and that patriotism is an inane concept.

I don't agree with everything he said (though I agree with a few things), but you guys really should stop putting words in his mouth. It just makes it look like you guys are super butthurt about a dissenting opinion.

GreySeal9

But that's basically the attitude he's showing through his posts. It's like he has the mind of an immature teenager who thinks he's above everyone else.

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

Again, that's clearly the attitude he's showing through his posts. Obviously I don't think he believes that 4th of July celebrations should be banned...

It was just a basic statement explaining his attitude in a very basic way. That. Is. It.

And to the bolded...isn't that a personal attack?:lol:

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

He didn't actually say that no one can be proud of their country, he just said that he thinks there's propoganda (which is debatable) and that patriotism is an inane concept.

I don't agree with everything he said (though I agree with a few things), but you guys really should stop putting words in his mouth. It just makes it look like you guys are super butthurt about a dissenting opinion.

GreySeal9

But that's basically the attitude he's showing through his posts. It's like he has the mind of an immature teenager who thinks he's above everyone else.

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

But that's basically the attitude he's showing through his posts. It's like he has the mind of an immature teenager who thinks he's above everyone else.

SpartanMSU

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

Again, that's clearly the attitude he's showing through his posts. Obviously I don't think he believes that 4th of July celebrations should be banned...

It was just a basic statement explaining his attitude in a very basic way. That. Is. It.

And to the bolded...isn't that a personal attack?:lol:

But he never expressed that attitude. He just expressed his opinion on the whole patriotism thing, albiet in not a very tactful way. The whole "nobody can be proud of their country!" part was pretty much yours. Why can't he think patriotism is dumb without people acting like because he thinks it's, it must mean that he thinks that nobody can be proud of their country. No, it's just something he thinks is stupid. I bet you think alot of things people do are stupid as well.

And no, that last comment is not a personal attack. I didn't attack you, I just said that the "mind of an immature teenager" comment makes it look like you're just way to irritated about his attitude.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

But that's basically the attitude he's showing through his posts. It's like he has the mind of an immature teenager who thinks he's above everyone else.

LJS9502_basic

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

Big deal.

GTFO of here with this BS. I celebrate Independence day because I love this country, not because of some forced in political implications.22Toothpicks

You do realize that the study wasn't neccesarily talking about you, right? There study might be total crap (I won't say until I actually see the whole thing), but I doubt your love of country has anything to do with it if the results are wrong.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

GreySeal9

Again, that's clearly the attitude he's showing through his posts. Obviously I don't think he believes that 4th of July celebrations should be banned...

It was just a basic statement explaining his attitude in a very basic way. That. Is. It.

And to the bolded...isn't that a personal attack?:lol:

But he never expressed that attitude.

You keep saying that, yet plenty of people have disagreed.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Again, that's clearly the attitude he's showing through his posts. Obviously I don't think he believes that 4th of July celebrations should be banned...

It was just a basic statement explaining his attitude in a very basic way. That. Is. It.

And to the bolded...isn't that a personal attack?:lol:

ImaPirate0202

But he never expressed that attitude.

You keep saying that, yet plenty of people have disagreed.

So what?

Those people have either a) taken him out of context b) twisted his words c) projected their own interpretation of his statement onto his statement.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

GreySeal9

Again, that's clearly the attitude he's showing through his posts. Obviously I don't think he believes that 4th of July celebrations should be banned...

It was just a basic statement explaining his attitude in a very basic way. That. Is. It.

And to the bolded...isn't that a personal attack?:lol:

But he never expressed that attitude. He just expressed his opinion on the whole patriotism thing, albiet in not a very tactful way. The whole "nobody can be proud of their country!" part was pretty much yours. Why can't he think patriotism is dumb without people acting like because he thinks it's, it must mean that he thinks that nobody can be proud of their country. No, it's just something he thinks is stupid. I bet you think alot of things people do are stupid as well.

And no, that last comment is not a personal attack. I didn't attack you, I just said that the "mind of an immature teenager" comment makes it look like you're just way to irritated about his attitude.

Yeah, and he expressed it with an attitude.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Again, that's clearly the attitude he's showing through his posts. Obviously I don't think he believes that 4th of July celebrations should be banned...

It was just a basic statement explaining his attitude in a very basic way. That. Is. It.

And to the bolded...isn't that a personal attack?:lol:

SpartanMSU

But he never expressed that attitude. He just expressed his opinion on the whole patriotism thing, albiet in not a very tactful way. The whole "nobody can be proud of their country!" part was pretty much yours. Why can't he think patriotism is dumb without people acting like because he thinks it's, it must mean that he thinks that nobody can be proud of their country. No, it's just something he thinks is stupid. I bet you think alot of things people do are stupid as well.

And no, that last comment is not a personal attack. I didn't attack you, I just said that the "mind of an immature teenager" comment makes it look like you're just way to irritated about his attitude.

Yeah, and he expressed it with an attitude.

Of course he expressed it with an attitude and I wouldn't have gone as far as he did. But he never said that people can't be proud of their country. He just basically said that he finds the whole thing inane in not so polite terms.

Just for the record, my own opinion on patriotism:

I don't really feel too strongly about it.

I'm not really patriotic myself as I find patriotism to be rather superficial (though I do want the country to do well for the same reason I want the world to do well: because it's full of people), but understand why some people love this country. I just don't love countries myself. Love of country is just not something that concerns me.

But while patriotism is fine, I think people shouldn't be so patriotic that they lose sight of things the country might be doing wrong.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Not really. Just because somebody finds patriotism inane and thinks there's propoganda in a holiday doesn't mean they think nobody is allowed to be prod of their country.

And you might want to cool off on the personal attacks. They really make it look you're just really hot and bothered by his opinion.

GreySeal9

Big deal.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]His comments were rather aggressive. Which means he feels passionately against patriotism. It would be different if he just expressed his opinion as just that.LJS9502_basic

Big deal.

I don't like when people trying to put words into other people's mouths, which is what I'm arguing against. I'm not arguing his opinion for him as I don't neccesarily agree. I'm arguing against people acting like he said things he didn't say.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Big deal.

GreySeal9

I don't like when people trying to put words into other people's mouths, which is what I'm arguing against. I'm not arguing his opinion for him as I don't neccesarily agree. I'm arguing against people acting like he said things he didn't say.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Then why argue someone's argument for them if it's nothing to bother about?LJS9502_basic

I don't like when people trying to put words into other people's mouths, which is what I'm arguing against. I'm not arguing his opinion for him as I don't neccesarily agree. I'm arguing against people acting like he said things he didn't say.

Just because someone is saying something rudely doesn't suddenly transform their comments into something else.

that's lame.

i'm very patriotic, you better believe i'm going to be celebrating the 4th of july, in fact i'm going to be celebrating it twice. and i'm not even republican.

that's lame.

i'm very patriotic, you better believe i'm going to be celebrating the 4th of july, in fact i'm going to be celebrating it twice. and i'm not even republican.

needled24-7

The study never said that you shouldn't celebrate the 4th of July.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

I don't like when people trying to put words into other people's mouths, which is what I'm arguing against. I'm not arguing his opinion for him as I don't neccesarily agree. I'm arguing against people acting like he said things he didn't say.

GreySeal9

Just because someone is saying something rudely doesn't suddenly transform their comments into something else.

[QUOTE="needled24-7"]

that's lame.

i'm very patriotic, you better believe i'm going to be celebrating the 4th of july, in fact i'm going to be celebrating it twice. and i'm not even republican.

GreySeal9

The study never said that you shouldn't celebrate the 4th of July.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I think it was more the way he said it.....LJS9502_basic

Just because someone is saying something rudely doesn't suddenly transform their comments into something else.

Oh boy. I'm not going to get into this crap with you.

Somebody I respect recommended, for my own sanity, that I stop repying to you, and I should have listened to them, so let's just drop it.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="needled24-7"]

that's lame.

i'm very patriotic, you better believe i'm going to be celebrating the 4th of july, in fact i'm going to be celebrating it twice. and i'm not even republican.

needled24-7

The study never said that you shouldn't celebrate the 4th of July.

I'm not endorsing the study, but it's not implying that every single person that celebrates is going to be influenced to be a Republican.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Just because someone is saying something rudely doesn't suddenly transform their comments into something else.

GreySeal9

Oh boy. I'm not going to get into this crap with you.

Somebody I respect recommended, for my own sanity, that I stop repying to you, and I should have listened to them, so let's just drop it.

My family always celebrated the 4th....and we're Democrats.:?LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Yet tone is very important to communication.LJS9502_basic

Oh boy. I'm not going to get into this crap with you.

Somebody I respect recommended, for my own sanity, that I stop repying to you, and I should have listened to them, so let's just drop it.

You can think that if it helps you sleep better at night (despite the fact that you don't know who I'm talking about, so you really can't speak to whether they 'can't reply' or whatever), but it was more about simply not wasting time on fruitless debates that will go around and round, getting caught in a ridiculous semantics quagmire, and will just lead to headache. I'm not going to waste any more time either. There's just so many other people I could be debating in a more constructive way.

So, you can reply if you want, but this will be my last.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]My family always celebrated the 4th....and we're Democrats.:?F1_2004

[QUOTE="F1_2004"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]My family always celebrated the 4th....and we're Democrats.:?lowkey254

I bet they aren't, but you don't know that for sure. You'd have to run it through some statistical prodecures (like a t-test perhaps; well, no not a t-test since you'd be comparing alot of different ideologies) to test for statistical significance.