Good Speech.Weak speech. His Corporate Masters will be upset at his colossal failure at destroying reform. Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans?[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="blackngold29"]John Boehner's full speech.Ultimas_Blade
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"]All rights require actions of another person. Humans need other humans in order to live. Thats why we are social animals. Its in our best interest to have a good society[QUOTE="I_am_george"]
Sorry, rights don't require an action of another person. If all the doctors quit and refused to treat people would it still be a right? How would you get doctors to treat people if they choose not to? Do Doctors have a right to quit their job and stop practicing?
blackngold29
the right to property requires that other people believe in property
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness do not require other people. yes they do. you would dieon your own liberty is the freedom to do what you want happiness isnt possible for social animals without others. YOU NEED OTHERS[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="blackngold29"]The Hills Have Eyes is on Spike if anyone wants cheered up.blackngold29Lol, I'm actually going to bed in a few. Have College tomorrow :( I do too, but I'm in denial. Yeah, I have a lab Practical on Tuesday and an Exam on Thursday. But then...I have off a week! :D :D :D
[QUOTE="blackngold29"][QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"] All rights require actions of another person. Humans need other humans in order to live. Thats why we are social animals. Its in our best interest to have a good societythe right to property requires that other people believe in propertyAtheists_PwnLife, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness do not require other people. yes they do. you would dieon your own liberty is the freedom to do what you want happiness isnt possible for social animals without others. YOU NEED OTHERS I'm quite sure it would be possible to live on your own in the wilderness and be happy. Thoreau much?
[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]Weak speech. His Corporate Masters will be upset at his colossal failure at destroying reform. Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans? Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Good Speech.Snipes_2
I'm all for Paul Ryan. That dude knows his stuff. And he would be better than Newt because he is young and not a philandering hypocrite.peaceful_angerhe's way too young, and there's a reason he never moved on to Senator.
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]Weak speech. His Corporate Masters will be upset at his colossal failure at destroying reform.Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans? Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)Ultimas_Blade
Democrats:Concerned with saving people with Healthcare reform.
Republicans:Concerned with supporting a war that kills innocent lives.
yes they do. you would dieon your own liberty is the freedom to do what you want happiness isnt possible for social animals without others. YOU NEED OTHERS I'm quite sure it would be possible to live on your own in the wilderness and be happy. Thoreau much? nonsensical fantasy. Anyway, I dont think he opposed "tribalism" if you will[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"][QUOTE="blackngold29"] Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness do not require other people.blackngold29
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]Weak speech. His Corporate Masters will be upset at his colossal failure at destroying reform.Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans? Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)Ultimas_Blade
According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]Weak speech. His Corporate Masters will be upset at his colossal failure at destroying reform.Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans? Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :) Change doesn't necessarily indicate something's done for the better. I take it you're a Democrat?Ultimas_Blade
Does it matter if they're elected? Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa. Although some Republicans did vote on Healthcare.
Please explain how mandating that Americans buy insurance from private companies and offering subsidies for those who cannot is a step towards government ownership of the means of production.
GabuEx
The is more of a merger of the government monopoly of force and private corporate infrastructure and means of production. Actually, it isn't really socialism in a classic Marxist sense. This is socialism in a more modernist, 1930's fashion. It's more social corporatist...or as it was known in Europe back in the 1930's, national socialism. Now, you might favor the government using its monopoly of force to create a forced, captive market for corporations, but call it by its name. It's fascism, plain and simple. This goes beyond socialism. This is far scarier. This isn't the government plundering our fortunes to create a classless society. This is government plundering our fortunes to feed private corporations.
It will not stop here. When the domestic auto makers next encounter difficulty, they won't ask for a bailout. They will ask for a domestic automobile mandate that requires all Americans to purchase at least one domestically produced vehicle, whether they need it or not. Newspapers will begin to demand that the government force the American people to support their failed business model by asking for a newspaper mandate, requiring Americans to subscribe to a newspaper.
The next time that massive flooding hits the Mississippi, I fully expect the property insurance companies to ask for a flood insurance mandate that requires all American home-owners to purchase flood insurance, even if they live at high elevations well above any potential floods. They will claim that by forcing low-risk homeowners to purchase flood insurance, they will increase the "risk-pool" and ensure that there will be enough funds to cover the losses of the people that live in the flood-prone areas.
Don't forget, according to the unabashed statists that support mandates like this, this is perfectly legal because, according to them, the Constitution gives the federal government unlimited powers to regulate anything and everything that has even the most remote connection to "interstate commerce".
Ah, the commerce clause. That nifty little vague clause has been the cause of the most egregious subversion of the Constitutional principles of limited government and individual liberty in all of our history.
The commerce clause was originally intended to keep one state from using geography to hold other states hostage by preventing or taxing trade across borders. My oh my, how that little clause has grown. What was once just guarantee to southern planters that their cotton could cross Maryland & Pennsylvania on its way to the textile mills in Massachussets has become far more than it originally was. It is now the most important clause in our Constitution and forms the basis of practically all modern Federal law.
The Anti-Federalists were right. They predicted that this would happen. Sure, it took two centuries, but it happened. They predicted that the vagueness of the Constitution would be its undoing, and that none of the guarantees of individual liberty contained in it would stand the test of time and the twisting of politicians and judges.
So here we are, well passed the crossroads on a road that leads to a dead end and the death of the American spirit of liberty.
I think that the only hope left is insurrection. Oh sweet insurrection, grace our shores once more and bathe us in gore, for that tree of liberty is looking mightily dry and could use some fluid to quench its need.
EDITED: a few typos, I probably didn't catch them all
Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans?GTA3_Darkel
Democrats:Concerned with saving people with Healthcare reform.
Republicans:Concerned with supporting a war that kills innocent lives.
funny they don't seem all that concerned.
Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans?GTA3_Darkel
Democrats:Concerned with saving people with Healthcare reform
Republicans:Concerned with supporting a war that kills innocent lives.
Right... because no democrats or independents voted on supporting the war or financing the troops... Do people really fall for this kind of grandstanding or do you just do it to make yourself feel good?Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :) Change doesn't necessarily indicate something's done for the better. I take it you're a Democrat?[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans?Snipes_2
Does it matter if they're elected? Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa. Although some Republicans did vote on Healthcare.
Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor.[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
I think the entire threads filled with people saying things similar to "I don't care what happens to them. It's my money! MINE!" killed any faith I have in human kindness.
MarcusAntonius
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn't mean getting it at your neighbor's expense. Being forced to give my neighbor a portion of what I earn isn't human kindness. Its the government putting a gun to my head.
When people demand a share of the fruits of my labor based on their need, that is just plain wrong.
But then we go back to the problem of, what do we do with said people? Let them live on the streets or euthanise them? I think euthanasia would be kinder, but that too would cost money. Then again, homelessness effects property values, tourism, buisness, etc.
Or is it basically "I don't care what you do with them as long as I don't have to know about it!"
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"]Thats not necessarily true from what i know. The point is that often people are adverse to change even if its for the better. A congress person or senator has the ability to see above the rabble and bickering and making the best decision... Thats exactly what they were put into place to do wolverine4262OR they can just vote for whatever their party supports. Like Healthcare. ya, its sad that there are republicans not supporting health care reform simply b/c the dems are the one proposing this...Look, if republicans cared for meaningful reform (Which everyone KNOWS is needed in some capacity), they would have done so when they had the power to... But the Democrats outvoted them.
Gauging public opinion on this health care bill is a bit tricky. When you ask people if they support the Obama health care plan, a majority, or at least a plurality of those polled oppose it. But when you ask why they oppose it, a lot of these people give factually incorrect answers - they say things like it makes it harder for those with pre-existing conditions to get insurance and they say that the CBO reported that it will increase the deficit. And when you go explain the bill to them, and ask them if they support or oppose each individual component of the bill, a majority of people support it.According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
fidosim
Change doesn't necessarily indicate something's done for the better. I take it you're a Democrat?[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]
[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"] Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :) Mousetaches
Does it matter if they're elected? Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa. Although some Republicans did vote on Healthcare.
Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor. Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports.Interesting. I was promised that the sky would have fallen by now. *Continues looking up*
Serraph105
I'm still waiting for Stalins ghost to destroy capitalism with his mighty communist powers, fueled by the passing of this bill.
It will not stop here. When the domestic auto makers next encounter difficulty, they won't ask for a bailout. They will ask for a domestic automobile mandate that requires all Americans to purchase at least one domestically produced vehicle, whether they need it or not. Newspapers will begin to demand that the government force the American people to support their failed business model by asking for a newspaper mandate, requiring Americans to subscribe to a newspaper.
The next time that massive flooding hits the Mississippi, I fully expect the property insurance companies to ask for a flood insurance mandate that requires all American home-owners to purchase flood insurance, even if they live at high elevations well above any potential floods. They will claim that by forcing low-risk homeowners to purchase flood insurance, they will increase the "risk-pool" and ensure that there will be enough funds to cover the losses of the people that live in the flood-prone areas.
dkrustyklown
I sure do like that slippery slope you have constructed there. Mind if I give it a slide?
[QUOTE="Mousetaches"]Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor. Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports. they all voted on healthcare. It's just that no republicans voted for it.[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Change doesn't necessarily indicate something's done for the better. I take it you're a Democrat?
Does it matter if they're elected? Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa. Although some Republicans did vote on Healthcare.
Snipes_2
Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans?fidosim
According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
That last part is true, the insurance industry was on board as was the AMA, they both wanted it to pass but at the very least we have something now that we can strengthen.
[QUOTE="Serraph105"]
Interesting. I was promised that the sky would have fallen by now. *Continues looking up*
Pixel-Pirate
I'm still waiting for Stalins ghost to destroy capitalism with his mighty communist powers, fueled by the passing of this bill.
and Nancy will drink the blood of the innocent[QUOTE="Mousetaches"]Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor. Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports. You don't see the double standard here? Not a single Republican voted for it. I would say that's Republicans voting with their own party just like the Democrats do according to you. Kind of funny that Obama wanted to see the two parties work together and we get this.[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Change doesn't necessarily indicate something's done for the better. I take it you're a Democrat?
Does it matter if they're elected? Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa. Although some Republicans did vote on Healthcare.
Snipes_2
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Mousetaches"] Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor.Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports. they all voted on healthcare. It's just that no republicans voted for it. Yeah. Republicans stayed with Republicans and Democrats Supported Democrats.Serraph105
[QUOTE="fidosim"]
Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :) Ultimas_Blade
According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
That last part is true, the insurance industry was on board as was the AMA, they both wanted it to pass but at the very least we have something now that we can strengthen.
And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Mousetaches"] Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor.Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports. You don't see the double standard here? Not a single Republican voted for it. I would say that's Republicans voting with their own party just like the Democrats do according to you. That's why I said "Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa".Ace6301
[QUOTE="GTA3_Darkel"][QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"] Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :) guynamedbilly
Democrats:Concerned with saving people with Healthcare reform
Republicans:Concerned with supporting a war that kills innocent lives.
Right... because no democrats or independents voted on supporting the war or financing the troops... Do people really fall for this kind of grandstanding or do you just do it to make yourself feel good?I'm pretty sure I'm not the oly one who felt this way:
[QUOTE="superfive9"]Or Maybe it's because Democrats outnumber Republicans?Ultimas_BladeYes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :)
Duh! We aren't communists or socialists! You're made to buy car insurance if you own a car in the USA, where are the tears for that? Now that people are mandated costs will come down. Oh, and those 'polls' you've seen don't mean squat because the people elected their officials a long time ago. If the American People do not like their elected representatives, we will see them out of office in November.According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
fidosim
Gauging public opinion on this health care bill is a bit tricky. When you ask people if they support the Obama health care plan, a majority, or at least a plurality of those polled oppose it. But when you ask why they oppose it, a lot of these people give factually incorrect answers - they say things like it makes it harder for those with pre-existing conditions to get insurance and they say that the CBO reported that it will increase the deficit. And when you go explain the bill to them, and ask them if they support or oppose each individual component of the bill, a majority of people support it. this. the American people largely don't understand this bill at all, but once they see it in action, they're going to like it. I think everyone who's calling for the Republicans' total dominance in November is going to be disappointed. as Obama said, why should Democrats listen to Mitch McConnell in terms of what is best for them? And also, I think it's hilarious that the GOP is trying to say that the passage of healthcare is actually a victory for THEM as it will put them back in power. other people in this thread are arguing that Obama's presidency has been doomed tonight. it's all just nonsense, this will wind up being a popular measure once more people have insurance, which by the way was the whole point of the bill.[QUOTE="fidosim"]
According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
-Sun_Tzu-
[QUOTE="Former_Slacker"][QUOTE="fidosim"]
According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
fidosim
That last part is true, the insurance industry was on board as was the AMA, they both wanted it to pass but at the very least we have something now that we can strengthen.
And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.Care to provide some documentation supporting that that is his goal? And please, no speculative sources.
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Mousetaches"] Who? The vote I'm looking at was 219-212 with 0 Republicans voting in favor.Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports. You don't see the double standard here? Not a single Republican voted for it. I would say that's Republicans voting with their own party just like the Democrats do according to you. ya, im not sure what he is getting at...Ace6301
You don't see the double standard here? Not a single Republican voted for it. I would say that's Republicans voting with their own party just like the Democrats do according to you. That's why I said "Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa". well, no, a lot of Democrats voted against this. the GOP just NEEDS party unity right now because they're trying to break Obama, and by defeating this all the Democrats would suffer seriously politically, which is of course the exact opposite of what the Republicans are actually saying.[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Oh, Well I guess it holds true then. Democrats will vote for whatever their party supports. Snipes_2
When did he say that? Don't be gettin' my hopes up like that fidosim! rushlimbaugh.com theres a youtube video of him saying it lol[QUOTE="fidosim"][ And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.-Sun_Tzu-
Right... because no democrats or independents voted on supporting the war or financing the troops... Do people really fall for this kind of grandstanding or do you just do it to make yourself feel good?[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"][QUOTE="GTA3_Darkel"]
Democrats:Concerned with saving people with Healthcare reform
Republicans:Concerned with supporting a war that kills innocent lives.
GTA3_Darkel
I'm pretty sure I'm not the oly one who felt this way:
I think you forgot to add the 2.5 - 3 Trillion it will cost in 10 years.[QUOTE="Former_Slacker"][QUOTE="fidosim"]
According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.
fidosim
That last part is true, the insurance industry was on board as was the AMA, they both wanted it to pass but at the very least we have something now that we can strengthen.
And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.I completely support single payer as an alternative to the bill, although i personally endorse the french system, also Obama doesn't favor a single payer system at this point and i doubt he will push for it although some type of single payer system might likely come out of some state, which i hope will domino into my state.
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