House Democrats have 216 votes needed to pass US health care reform.

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"]I lol'ddkrustyklown

Thank you. It was meant to be a little funny, whether you agree with me or not.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] You don't see the double standard here? Not a single Republican voted for it. I would say that's Republicans voting with their own party just like the Democrats do according to you.quiglythegreat

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"][ And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.Atheists_Pwn

[QUOTE="fidosim"]

According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] That's why I said "Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa".

Snipes_2

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] That's why I said "Democrats support Democrats and Vice Versa".

Snipes_2

[QUOTE="fidosim"][ And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

-Sun_Tzu-

Coolbeans, I have to say that I'm surprised that you are so vehemently against this bill, because in your signature you quote Hayek. The reason for that is that Hayek pretty much supported the idea of government-sponsored health insurance.

"Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision.

Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance – where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks – the case for the state's helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong… Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make the provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken,"

- Excerpt from Hayek's Road to Serfdom

It's not really the bill for the most part that I am opposed to. There are many problems with the current system that need to be adressed. My primary remaining issue with the bill is the individual mandate.

As for Hayek, he said that the case for insurance was strong. He made an argument for it and then elaborated upon the problems with it. As far as I can tell, he did not advocate NHS.

Here is a link with several excerpts about him discussing the issue, including the one you posted:

Link

EDIT: Speaking of sigs, you had a really awesome one a month or two ago. I thought I'd let you know that.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"] well, no, a lot of Democrats voted against this. the GOP just NEEDS party unity right now because they're trying to break Obama, and by defeating this all the Democrats would suffer seriously politically, which is of course the exact opposite of what the Republicans are actually saying.quiglythegreat

At the very least this lesson has made them grow some backbone, which they hopefully wont toss out when dealing with future legislation.

[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"][QUOTE="superfive9"] Yes because the *elected* Democrats represent the overwhelming majority of Americans who SUPPORT HCR and not the deceit of the corporatist Republicans. Change has come to America :) Ultimas_Blade

According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.

fidosim

This is somewhat unrelated to the main topic, but as someone who does not drive or own a car, are you forced to buy car insurance if you own a car or only if you drive said car? Would you be forced to buy car insurance for a car that is basically a showroom car that you don't drive?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"] well, no, a lot of Democrats voted against this. the GOP just NEEDS party unity right now because they're trying to break Obama, and by defeating this all the Democrats would suffer seriously politically, which is of course the exact opposite of what the Republicans are actually saying.quiglythegreat

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"][ And 'strengthen' it, Obama will. Keep in mind that his goal is a single payer system by the end of his first term.fidosim

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"] well, no, a lot of Democrats voted against this. the GOP just NEEDS party unity right now because they're trying to break Obama, and by defeating this all the Democrats would suffer seriously politically, which is of course the exact opposite of what the Republicans are actually saying.wolverine4262

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"]

According to most polls i've seen, the majority of people polled didn't want this bill to pass. Also, you are aware that many industry leaders wanted this bill? Because it forces people to buy insurance.

quiglythegreat

To be fair I doubt congress or anyone on this board fully understand the bill since few of us have the sort of time needed to read a bill the size of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] A Majority of the Democrats voted for it otherwise it would not have passed.Snipes_2

[QUOTE="fidosim"] In other words, the masses are too stupid to know what's good for them? It is entirely likely that the Republicans will make some gains later this year, but the Republican congressional leadership knows that it would take a pretty extraordinary takeover for this to be reversed in any way. So this isn't a victory for Republicans, nor is it a victory for the country, just as Scott Brown's win in Massachussetts wasn't a victory for the Democratic agenda, as some Democrats tried to claim. quiglythegreat

This is somewhat unrelated to the main topic, but as someone who does not drive or own a car, are you forced to buy car insurance if you own a car or only if you drive said car? Would you be forced to buy car insurance for a car that is basically a showroom car that you don't drive?

Pixel-Pirate

To get a license plate, most states require proof of insurance. If you are driving the vehicle on private property, there is no requirement. It is a requirement only when other people's vehicles are at risk of being hit by you :lol:

They said that Scott Brown's victory showed that people liked Romneycare, and wanted something like it for the rest of the country. fidosim

[QUOTE="fidosim"] In other words, the masses are too stupid to know what's good for them? It is entirely likely that the Republicans will make some gains later this year, but the Republican congressional leadership knows that it would take a pretty extraordinary takeover for this to be reversed in any way. So this isn't a victory for Republicans, nor is it a victory for the country, just as Scott Brown's win in Massachussetts wasn't a victory for the Democratic agenda, as some Democrats tried to claim. -Sun_Tzu-

Of course they aren't stupid, but there was so much misdirection and confusion regarding abortion, deficit reduction, etc that the Republicans have spewed that it caused people to be doubtful without considering the facts.

Well, the people of Massachusetts by-and-large like Romneycare, including a Mr. Scott Brown. Scott Brown's position on health care was very nuanced - he didn't run against universal health care, but he made the argument that since Massachusetts already has near-universal health care, Massachusetts doesn't need Obamacare. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Gauging public opinion on this health care bill is a bit tricky. When you ask people if they support the Obama health care plan, a majority, or at least a plurality of those polled oppose it. But when you ask why they oppose it, a lot of these people give factually incorrect answers - they say things like it makes it harder for those with pre-existing conditions to get insurance and they say that the CBO reported that it will increase the deficit. And when you go explain the bill to them, and ask them if they support or oppose each individual component of the bill, a majority of people support it.

Pixel-Pirate

To be fair I doubt congress or anyone on this board fully understand the bill since few of us have the sort of time needed to read a bill the size of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.

I hate when people say the bill is too long to read. There are dozens of college educated Republicans in the House, break the bill up about 200 pages for every 10 or so people and ANALYZE the HELL out of it. Why for ONE YEAR they STILL haven't read the legislation.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="fidosim"] In other words, the masses are too stupid to know what's good for them? It is entirely likely that the Republicans will make some gains later this year, but the Republican congressional leadership knows that it would take a pretty extraordinary takeover for this to be reversed in any way. So this isn't a victory for Republicans, nor is it a victory for the country, just as Scott Brown's win in Massachussetts wasn't a victory for the Democratic agenda, as some Democrats tried to claim. Ultimas_Blade

Of course they aren't stupid, but there was so much misdirection and confusion regarding abortion, deficit reduction, etc that the Republicans have spewed that it caused people to be doubtful without considering the facts.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="fidosim"] In other words, the masses are too stupid to know what's good for them? It is entirely likely that the Republicans will make some gains later this year, but the Republican congressional leadership knows that it would take a pretty extraordinary takeover for this to be reversed in any way. So this isn't a victory for Republicans, nor is it a victory for the country, just as Scott Brown's win in Massachussetts wasn't a victory for the Democratic agenda, as some Democrats tried to claim. Ultimas_Blade

Of course they aren't stupid, but there was so much misdirection and confusion regarding abortion, deficit reduction, etc that the Republicans have spewed that it caused people to be doubtful without considering the facts.

There's also misinformation regarding the benefits of the healthcare bill. (ie lowering premiums and preventive care lowering costs) by the Democrats.

I don't think this bill will have much of an effect on the American public that many wish. What's even more disturbing is the healthcare insurance company's support of the bill as well as the mandatory coverage.

But hey, if it works, wonderful. If not, Dems are going to get it on November.

It's not really the bill for the most part that I am opposed to. There are many problems with the current system that need to be adressed. My primary issue with the bill is the individual mandate.

As for Hayek, he said that the case for insurance was strong. He made an argument for it and then elaborated upon the problems with it. As far as I can tell, he did not advocate NHS.

Here is a link with several excerpts about him discussing the issue, including the one you posted:

Link

coolbeans90

]either way whats so wrong with it exactly? It works great for 90% of the civilized world...wolverine4262

[QUOTE="fidosim"] They said that Scott Brown's victory showed that people liked Romneycare, and wanted something like it for the rest of the country. -Sun_Tzu-

Actually massachusetts favors single payer, with every single district in the state having a majority favoring single payer in 2008.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/election_results/ma_localquestions/#Single-payer%20health%20insurance

Massachusetts also doesn't like laws punishing people for not buying health insurance.

I don't think the obvious fact that Brown's election would give them the 41 seats needed to prevent Democrats from overcoming filibusters was lost on everyone who voted for him.fidosim

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"]]either way whats so wrong with it exactly? It works great for 90% of the civilized world...fidosim

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

It's not really the bill for the most part that I am opposed to. There are many problems with the current system that need to be adressed. My primary issue with the bill is the individual mandate.

As for Hayek, he said that the case for insurance was strong. He made an argument for it and then elaborated upon the problems with it. As far as I can tell, he did not advocate NHS.

Here is a link with several excerpts about him discussing the issue, including the one you posted:

Link

-Sun_Tzu-

The U.S. government has played an active role in the health care system for a while, and does even more so now. As I said, there are some regulatory reforms that I support. Hell, I am not opposed to the idea of a self-sufficient public option if it plays on a level field with the rest of the companies and does not dictate industry regulation. I am aware that you cannot have universal coverage if people don't buy coverage. I am not particularly opposed to not having universal coverage as I do not view health insurance as a right, and that is where you and I do not see eye to eye ideologically.

socialized health care doesnt force anybody to live a certain way. It promoted good health which is only a plus...wolverine4262

Senior citizens seem to enjoy their single-payer health care. You say that single-payer is inconsistent with American views on liberty, but I doubt many people support a repeal of medicare.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"] socialized health care doesnt force anybody to live a certain way. It promoted good health which is only a plus...fidosim

[QUOTE="fidosim"] Seniors can still have private insurance, which would be very restricted under a single-payer system.-Sun_Tzu-

That last part is hilarious.

On an unrelated note, Obama's approval ratings have taken a somewhat significant jump.

On an unrelated note, Obama's approval ratings have taken a somewhat significant jump.

-Sun_Tzu-

I can't help but not take any approval rating poll seriouslyof what the public think of the people in office.. The vast majority of the public are reactionary morons.. Seeing Bush's approval rattings skyrocket to the 80% region after 9/11 is proof of this.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

On an unrelated note, Obama's approval ratings have taken a somewhat significant jump.

sSubZerOo

I can't help but not take any approval rating poll seriouslyof what the public think of the people in office.. The vast majority of the public are reactionary morons.. Seeing Bush's approval rattings skyrocket to the 80% region after 9/11 is proof of this.

For once, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you.

"Most of the final negotiations over health care have turned on the abortion language, but last week members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus joined the fray, threatening to vote \"no\" on the Senate version because it prohibits undocumented immigrants from participating in insurance exchanges. In a recent appearance on \"On the Record,\" Illinois Democratic Rep. Luis Gutierrez pledged to vote down the bill, saying it prevented undocumented immigrants from abiding by the requirement that everyone have health insurance...."

OBAMA CONVINCED REP GUTIERREZ AND HIS FACTION TO SWITH TO YES VOTES, IN EXCHANGE FOR OBAMA PROMISING TO TAKE ON AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS NEXT.

OBAMA CONVINCED REP GUTIERREZ AND HIS FACTION TO SWITH TO YES VOTES, IN EXCHANGE FOR OBAMA PROMISING TO TAKE ON AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS NEXT.

AHUGECAT

FEAR FEAR FEAR

Please, the problem of illegals stems from the fact that many businesses are not severely punished for hiring and paying undocumented immigrants. It so crazy that conservatives have already shifted to "All Spin Mode".

Oh man the Free Republic forums are producing nothing but gold at the moment.

Oh man the Free Republic forums are producing nothing but gold at the moment.

KG86

[QUOTE="AHUGECAT"]

OBAMA CONVINCED REP GUTIERREZ AND HIS FACTION TO SWITH TO YES VOTES, IN EXCHANGE FOR OBAMA PROMISING TO TAKE ON AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS NEXT.

Ultimas_Blade

FEAR FEAR FEAR

Please, the problem of illegals stems from the fact that many businesses are not severely punished for hiring and paying undocumented immigrants. It so crazy that conservatives have already shifted to "All Spin Mode".

I totally agree with you. It's all the Governments fault and employers. If I was from Mexico I'd be going over the USA too, can't blame them, but the USA needs to make being a legal immigrant easier too.

On an unrelated note, Obama's approval ratings have taken a somewhat significant jump.

-Sun_Tzu-

But that can't be; health care just passed, so Obama is doomed. :(

:P

Let's help people, by hurting other people... yea, seems right to me. :roll: More tax dollars, more of your hard earned money going to fund the undisciplined and lazy.

Let's help people, by hurting other people... yea, seems right to me. :roll: More tax dollars, more of your hard earned money going to fund the undisciplined and lazy.

feryl06

Let's help people, by hurting other people... yea, seems right to me. :roll: More tax dollars, more of your hard earned money going to fund the undisciplined and lazy.

feryl06

It is very easy to support the rejection of government assistance for the poor if one paints them as being simply lazy bums who need to work harder.

Unfortunately, that is not true.