Is it really "wrong" for grown men to be attracted to 13-14 year old g

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

Research says otherwise.
-the research has been done on all behaviors (sexual in nature, hunger, misc. wants, etc.)

It shows that behavior escalates over time.
...it is something that grows over time until it is 'resolved' (can be through sexual climax, obtainment of food, getting something you want...it does not matter)

There has also been considerable research done on both convicted sex offenders and serial killers
-the same pattern holds true
-thoughts lead to fantasy lead to viewing lead planning lead to action

There is no conjecture on my end

rawsavon

Shouldn't that mean most people should be psychotic murderers at this time?

Many people think or even fantasize about killing. It is pretty much human nature. Some live out these fantasies by watching violent video games and other media.

There for, I must assume those people will eventually escalate to where the games violence is not enough and they must go out killing.

So I can't agree that any sort of fantasy leads to reality unless I at the same time accept that guys like Jack Thompson and Australia are right and violent media will turn people into killers. Fantasy leads to reality 100% of the time.

There is a world of difference in a passing thought (or one even experienced once a week) and one that is experienced every hour (sexual thoughts)
The people that think about REALLY killing someone every hour are the ones that end up being (or attempting to be) serial killers

It is the same as your hamburger example earlier -if you want one once in a while, you can easily control that -if you want one every hour of every day for your entire life, you will not
-if you wwant one once in a while, you can easily control that
-if you want one every hour of every day for your entire life, you will not

The main problem you keep having in your examples is that it assumes if a person is attracted to a younger person, this thought is a driving force in their life that never exits. And not possibly one of many sexual tastes possible. It assumes that it is all that person wants, basically it assumes that the person is a text book pedophile. But I think it's silly to say thats the only type out there.

There are people who are utterly obsessed with things and there are people who have a fleeting interest. The OP asked if it was wrong to find a 13 year old attractive. He said nothing about obsessing over one, having no other sexual turn on but young girls, and essentially having a life centered around the fantasy.

I think even if a text book pedophilic case, that'd be rare.

[QUOTE="freetoex"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

My post was not an assertion of what is right or wrong, but it was an assertion concerning man's inability to exhibit self control.

It is easy to say that one has self-control when there is a socially acceptable outlet for their inner wants/desires.
But imagine that there is no such outlet...that is where problems arise

rawsavon

Research says otherwise.
-the research has been done on all behaviors (sexual in nature, hunger, misc. wants, etc.)

It shows that behavior escalates over time.
...it is something that grows over time until it is 'resolved' (can be through sexual climax, obtainment of food, getting something you want...it does not matter)

There has also been considerable research done on both convicted sex offenders and serial killers
-the same pattern holds true
-thoughts lead to fantasy lead to viewing lead planning lead to action

There is no conjecture on my end

Pixel-Pirate

I am interested to see such proof. I understand what your trying to say, and I agree wholeheartedly that actions are horribly bad. I will never think it ok to lust after an underage looking child. What I have no problem with, is that primal instinct to notice what your attracted to, and age isn't always a determinate factor in that.

freetoex

Unfortunately, the only 'proof' I have with me at the moment is my word and my degree (what I learned)
-I could show you a picture of my degree with top honors, but I doubt that would satisfy anyone

None of my psychology books/notes are with me at the office

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]rawsavon

Then again we must assume that someone who plays violent games will go killing. You keep countering that with "Well, it's not in their mind 24/7 so it won't happen" but then assume someone with such an attraction must think of it non-stop and will go to any lengths to fulfill that fantasy even if that fantasy is, essentially, not a major thing to them.

We can't have it both ways. If even a fleeting thought or mild attraction will cause an escalation, then we are all doomed to become Tommy Vercetii very soon.

You essentially keep describing a textbook pedophile and asserting that only they exist, nothing else.

You essentially keep describing a textbook pedophile and asserting that only they exist, nothing else.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

You essentially keep describing a textbook pedophile and asserting that only they exist, nothing else.

rawsavon

But...by your own statement if it does not impair ones function, it is not a disorder apparently?

You basically keep saying worst case scenarios are garunteed 100% of the time.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your idea that if theres a person who see's a girl and thinks shes attractive, then they are an immediate threat to everyone and will almost certainly act on non-existant urges soon.

Basically you're saying around 8 or 9 people in this thread will eventually go after children if you're saying attraction=pedophilia=deffinetly going to fulfill fantasies.

I also don't see how any of that would impair societal function...

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

You essentially keep describing a textbook pedophile and asserting that only they exist, nothing else.

But...by your own statement if it does not impair ones function, it is not a disorder apparently?

You basically keep saying worst case scenarios are garunteed 100% of the time.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your idea that if theres a person who see's a girl and thinks shes attractive, then they are an immediate threat to everyone and will almost certainly act on non-existant urges soon.

Basically you're saying around 8 or 9 people in this thread will eventually go after children if you're saying attraction=pedophilia=deffinetly going to fulfill fantasies.

I also don't see how any of that would impair societal function...

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] I did not assert that at all. I gave 3 different cases (only the last being what we would call a pedophile/epheb) Pedophilia is a disorder A disorder requires something to be persistent...to impair your ability to function in society ...so the thoughts are persistent If you find 13 year old girlS attractive, then you have recurring, persistent thoughts about them Your video game analogy is flawed. -enjoying a game =/= you desire to kill people IRL (it is not something used as an alternative)rawsavon

But...by your own statement if it does not impair ones function, it is not a disorder apparently?

You basically keep saying worst case scenarios are garunteed 100% of the time.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your idea that if theres a person who see's a girl and thinks shes attractive, then they are an immediate threat to everyone and will almost certainly act on non-existant urges soon.

Basically you're saying around 8 or 9 people in this thread will eventually go after children if you're saying attraction=pedophilia=deffinetly going to fulfill fantasies.

I also don't see how any of that would impair societal function...

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]Pixel-Pirate

Then again we must assume that someone who plays violent games will go killing. You keep countering that with "Well, it's not in their mind 24/7 so it won't happen" but then assume someone with such an attraction must think of it non-stop and will go to any lengths to fulfill that fantasy even if that fantasy is, essentially, not a major thing to them.

We can't have it both ways. If even a fleeting thought or mild attraction will cause an escalation, then we are all doomed to become Tommy Vercetii very soon.

You essentially keep describing a textbook pedophile and asserting that only they exist, nothing else.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] I did not assert that at all. I gave 3 different cases (only the last being what we would call a pedophile/epheb) Pedophilia is a disorder A disorder requires something to be persistent...to impair your ability to function in society ...so the thoughts are persistent If you find 13 year old girlS attractive, then you have recurring, persistent thoughts about them Your video game analogy is flawed. -enjoying a game =/= you desire to kill people IRL (it is not something used as an alternative)rawsavon

But...by your own statement if it does not impair ones function, it is not a disorder apparently?

You basically keep saying worst case scenarios are garunteed 100% of the time.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your idea that if theres a person who see's a girl and thinks shes attractive, then they are an immediate threat to everyone and will almost certainly act on non-existant urges soon.

Basically you're saying around 8 or 9 people in this thread will eventually go after children if you're saying attraction=pedophilia=deffinetly going to fulfill fantasies.

I also don't see how any of that would impair societal function...

By that definition, someone with an interest but not really a primary or exclusive one (as I described earlier) does not fit the bill.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I was never arguing that they would never act on it. I know some people will. I was arguing against the idea that even a fleeting attraction will equal an escalation into trying to fulfill that fantasy 100% of the time.

There are varying levels of severity in psychiatry and I don't feel any issue, especially one like this, can be taken so black and white if we want to truly understand the problem instead of just saying "People bad!"

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

But...by your own statement if it does not impair ones function, it is not a disorder apparently?

You basically keep saying worst case scenarios are garunteed 100% of the time.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your idea that if theres a person who see's a girl and thinks shes attractive, then they are an immediate threat to everyone and will almost certainly act on non-existant urges soon.

Basically you're saying around 8 or 9 people in this thread will eventually go after children if you're saying attraction=pedophilia=deffinetly going to fulfill fantasies.

I also don't see how any of that would impair societal function...

zoraluv

Who said I excused any behavior? I simply don't believe painting 100% of a group of people as evil to be productive to any scientific understanding. I did not agree with his points and if I don't agree with them I will say so. I am not going to change my mind to be popular.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] Case 1: There is an attraction to a 13 year old that looks like an 18 year old (rare, but happens) -this is a non-issue unless they act upon it ...not what I am talking about here Case 2: Someone finds A 13 year old girl attractive -I have never heard of this, never seen any research on it, could not begin to comment on it Case 3: Someone finds 13 year old girls attractive -that means they are seen as a sexually desirable, that means sexual thoughts, that means fantasies, that means escalating behavior If a guy likes both men and women, the statistics show that he will experiment with BOTH during his lifejeremiah06

Then again we must assume that someone who plays violent games will go killing. You keep countering that with "Well, it's not in their mind 24/7 so it won't happen" but then assume someone with such an attraction must think of it non-stop and will go to any lengths to fulfill that fantasy even if that fantasy is, essentially, not a major thing to them.

We can't have it both ways. If even a fleeting thought or mild attraction will cause an escalation, then we are all doomed to become Tommy Vercetii very soon.

You essentially keep describing a textbook pedophile and asserting that only they exist, nothing else.

They'd both be fantasies and as he argued that a fantasy will escalate into fulfillment...

seriously........i've been lurking at you two for the lonngest out of the eye's of a hurt girl may i ask you pixelpirate how can excuse that kind of behavior does no one think about the victim? and rawsavon i don't think there can ever be a medical defition of what truely goes on in the minds of those peoplezoraluv

There are varying levels of severity in psychiatry and I don't feel any issue, especially one like this, can be taken so black and white if we want to truly understand the problem instead of just saying "People bad!"

[QUOTE="zoraluv"]seriously........i've been lurking at you two for the lonngest out of the eye's of a hurt girl may i ask you pixelpirate how can excuse that kind of behavior does no one think about the victim? and rawsavon i don't think there can ever be a medical defition of what truely goes on in the minds of those peoplerawsavon

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="zoraluv"]seriously........i've been lurking at you two for the lonngest out of the eye's of a hurt girl may i ask you pixelpirate how can excuse that kind of behavior does no one think about the victim? and rawsavon i don't think there can ever be a medical defition of what truely goes on in the minds of those peoplezoraluv

[QUOTE="zoraluv"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] I hold out hope that there is something medically/clinically/developmentally/etc wrong with them. ...that would imply there is the possibility of treatment and prevention (one we have just not found yet) Otherwise, you are saying is the same as being straight/gay In that case, there would be no solution/help...everrawsavon

but i firmly belive that you can not be born a pedophilezoraluv

Hmm...I don't think a Grown man should be attracted to anyone around that age. Doesn't seem right to me. I mean, Technically they are mature enough to have kids but, mentally...they're still just not able to deal with that stuff.

Snipes_2

[QUOTE="zoraluv"] but i firmly belive that you can not be born a pedophilerawsavon

It depends on the culture. Generally, American culture teaches us that it's wrong. However, for others around the world, it's a part of life. I personally think it's strange to act on the attraction towards a person younger than 18 unless you are their age. It was how I was raised in America and I still have the same opinion on the subject.

It depends on the culture. Generally, American culture teaches us that it's wrong. However, for others around the world, it's a part of life. I personally think it's strange to act on the attraction towards a person younger than 18 unless you are their age. It was how I was raised in America and I still have the same opinion on the subject.

Ghost_702

Attraction isn't wrong. Acting on the attraction is sociallywrong. If society never labelled pedophilia as "wrong", I'm sure more people would be into the act.

In truth, I'm 27 and I'm attracted to females of any fertile age, from as old as late 30's to as young as 13. If that makes me a pedophile then so be it, but it's not like I'm going out having relations with middle school girls, as I completely understand the morality in that a person that young is not capable of making mature, rational decisions and that's the whole idea behind the legal consenting age law. But on the other hand, I despise anyone who says there's something wrong with me for having the attraction in the first place.UT_Wrestler

Pedophilia:
Pedophilia (or paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 and older) characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.[1][2][3][4] According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), pedophilia is a paraphilia in which a person has intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about children they have either acted on or cause distress or interpersonal difficulty.[4]

You may or may not be depending on how often/how persistent these thoughts are and how they affect your life.
Though my guess is that your desires fall under something closer to this

Ephebophilia is the sexual preference of adults for mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19

ThoughI am sure your desires encompass more than these two things (per your statements)

I guess that you despise me then....not much to say about that. Though I find it humorous that you would despise someone for not thinking your desires are acceptable.

In truth, I'm 27 and I'm attracted to females of any fertile age, from as old as late 30's to as young as 13. If that makes me a pedophile then so be it, but it's not like I'm going out having relations with middle school girls, as I completely understand the morality in that a person that young is not capable of making mature, rational decisions and that's the whole idea behind the legal consenting age law. But on the other hand, I despise anyone who says there's something wrong with me for having the attraction in the first place.UT_Wrestler

Many young girls of 13-14 will dress provocatively anyway. I think it's wrong to be attracted to a girl of that age, but I can understand how their clothing can attract some men.

[QUOTE="freetoex"]I am interested to see such proof. I understand what your trying to say, and I agree wholeheartedly that actions are horribly bad. I will never think it ok to lust after an underage looking child. What I have no problem with, is that primal instinct to notice what your attracted to, and age isn't always a determinate factor in that.

rawsavon

Unfortunately, the only 'proof' I have with me at the moment is my word and my degree (what I learned)
-I could show you a picture of my degree with top honors, but I doubt that would satisfy anyone

None of my psychology books/notes are with me at the office

No but everything has a name and that called pedophillia. Its not socially accepted but its not wrong. Just the attraction.

warownslife

Up until about 150 years ago, it was very normal for grown men to go after young women. I don't think it's unnatural at all. However, it is against the law. So therapy? No. Prison for those that break the law? Yes. It is only as wrong as our government tells us it is.

If we could all just be clear, you believe it is "wrong" to ever be attracted to someone that looks under the age of consent? Even though it is part of the human male's id to look for multiple females to both be viable canditates for impregnation and remain strong enough to care for the offspring, regardless of age.

freetoex

I do not have an absolute black and white answer...if that is what you mean
Is 18 years old magically okay for a 35 year old guy to go after?
Is 18 years old magically okay for a 35 year old to be attracted to?
...no, that is just silly

It is all about a 'feel' test with me...the smell test
How does a particular situation feel

In all honesty, I don't agree with a 40 year old guy going after an 18 year old (17 in some states) regardless of the law

So my answer is not determined by legality and varies on a case by case basis.
-though I have never encountered a case (or think I will) where a girl that looks 13 is acceptable to be attracted to
...but there is the RARE 15 year old that looks to be 18...easy to find her attractive...but, personally, anytime I found that to be the case I felt sick to my stomach

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="zoraluv"] but i firmly belive that you can not be born a pedophilezoraluv

[QUOTE="zoraluv"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Then what happens along the way to cause it (in cases other than abuse)freetoex

[QUOTE="freetoex"] If we could all just be clear, you believe it is "wrong" to ever be attracted to someone that looks under the age of consent? Even though it is part of the human male's id to look for multiple females to both be viable canditates for impregnation and remain strong enough to care for the offspring, regardless of age.

rawsavon

I do not have an absolute black and white answer...if that is what you mean
Is 18 years old magically okay for a 35 year old guy to go after?
Is 18 years old magically okay for a 35 year old to be attracted to?
...no, that is just silly

It is all about a 'feel' test with me...the smell test
How does a particular situation feel

In all honesty, I don't agree with a 40 year old guy going after an 18 year old (17 in some states) regardless of the law

So my answer is not determined by legality and varies on a case by case basis.
-though I have never encountered a case (or think I will) where a girl that looks 13 is acceptable to be attracted to
...but there is the RARE 15 year old that looks to be 18...easy to find her attractive...but, personally, anytime I found that to be the case I felt sick to my stomach

No but everything has a name and that called pedophillia. Its not socially accepted but its not wrong. Just the attraction.

warownslife

i always thought that pedophilia was the attraction to pre-pubescent kids...

[QUOTE="freetoex"]

[QUOTE="zoraluv"] i dont know if this as a question but.if it is you are rasied in a pedophile excepting family(that was my scenoiro with my harasser) and are exposed to these thingszoraluv

I wouldn't characterize it as "wrong" to have the attractions, simply because it can't be helped. However, whether or not you actually act upon it is a question of willpower, not uncontrollable feelings. And acting upon your attractions is wrong.

First lets determine what wrong is..mrmusicman247

yes this needs to be defined first. as far as absolute morals go, feeling the need to mate with a fertile, consenting person is not immoral because its not destructive to our species.

In truth, I'm 27 and I'm attracted to females of any fertile age, from as old as late 30's to as young as 13. If that makes me a pedophile then so be it, but it's not like I'm going out having relations with middle school girls, as I completely understand the morality in that a person that young is not capable of making mature, rational decisions and that's the whole idea behind the legal consenting age law. But on the other hand, I despise anyone who says there's something wrong with me for having the attraction in the first place.UT_Wrestler

[QUOTE="UT_Wrestler"]In truth, I'm 27 and I'm attracted to females of any fertile age, from as old as late 30's to as young as 13. If that makes me a pedophile then so be it, but it's not like I'm going out having relations with middle school girls, as I completely understand the morality in that a person that young is not capable of making mature, rational decisions and that's the whole idea behind the legal consenting age law. But on the other hand, I despise anyone who says there's something wrong with me for having the attraction in the first place.freetoex

[QUOTE="UT_Wrestler"]In truth, I'm 27 and I'm attracted to females of any fertile age, from as old as late 30's to as young as 13. If that makes me a pedophile then so be it, but it's not like I'm going out having relations with middle school girls, as I completely understand the morality in that a person that young is not capable of making mature, rational decisions and that's the whole idea behind the legal consenting age law. But on the other hand, I despise anyone who says there's something wrong with me for having the attraction in the first place.freetoex

It's not "wrong" since you can't help what physical attractions you have. It's only wrong once you act upon those urges try to have sex a 13 year old.

Age is only a number. If the girl's body is truly matured and she looks like a woman, it doesn't matter what her age is.

It's entirely another story if the girl in question looks like undeveloped teenager / little kid.

The precedent has been set throughout human history that men of almost any age have married and mated with young women as young as 13 or 14 years old. I'm thinking that they must have found them attractive to want to do that. When you take this into consideration, you begin to realize that it's only our modern society that has made this seem wrong or perverted. Once a girl enters puberty, it's 100% natural for men of different ages to find her attractive. Not only pretty, but sexually attractive. It is a natural part of human sexuality, and it always will be. Our government has taken it upon themselves to impose age limits on all sorts of things. That doesn't mean that someone has a disorder because they're attracted to fertile females, regardless of the age. In fact, quite the opposite when you look at thousands of years of human interaction. There's a reason that women start to look different when they enter puberty. It's to attract a mate. Not a hard concept.