Okay Atheists, Where is your Proof that GOD DOESN'T Exist?

You can't prove a negative.

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

[QUOTE="MAILER_DAEMON"]I say give this thread and all threads like it a bat to the face, this is Off Topic, not the Richard Dawkins foundation.

Though there's also Marcion, who believed that the God of the Old Testament was a vengeful, wrathful being that just threw tantrums, while the real God was the God of the New Testament, who just stayed silent while the other God created stuff and caused problems.

MAILER_DAEMON

Out of curiosity has the boards always been this argumentative about religion or is it just a recent development? Just wondering since I only joined last year.

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] So, you argue that it's a fact that this happened and that this theory is without any doubt reliable? MAILER_DAEMON

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] So, you argue that it's a fact that this happened and that this theory is without any doubt reliable? MAILER_DAEMON

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] The Universe is a Physical thing, it's not Omnipotent, or Supernatural. Physical things need to be created by someone or some thing.

Snipes_2

A. You're just jumping to the conclusion that an omnipotent or supernatural being exists (in fact I can prove an omnipotentbeing does not in fact exist)

B. Just because we cannot see the beginning does not mean that beginning does not exist. In orther words just because there IS a beginning doesn't mean that god is the correct explanation.

C. How do you know physical things need to be created? Perhaps there are laws of the physical universe we do not know yet that can explain how matter can exist without a creator god.

Could god create a rock so powerful that he could not lift it? If the answer is yes then he is unable to lift said rock, if the answer is no then he is unable to create said rock. Even if there is an unimaginably powerful being, it can still not be truly omnipotent.

What do you mean why?

Nope. There's still no evidence for the existence of god, at best you can say the idea of god is something to explain the things in life we don't understand, which is a fallacy of trying to explain something that is at present incapable of explanation.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Prove it.

Snipes_2

So you can't prove it then, just checking.

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

Snipes_2

Hmm.

I'm assuming you read those links and completely understood what they were talking about, and that you didn't just read the title and then post the link?

[QUOTE="MAILER_DAEMON"][QUOTE="loquaciousness"]Almost certainly.Snipes_2

People need to stop messing with other people's beliefs. Believe in whatever you want that makes you feel comfortable.

I'm surprised that upon reading the first and last page, no one's mentioned the problem of evil. Well, that is my contention for why there is no God. Essentially, the problem of evil is that evil exists and if there were a perfect God, he wouldn't allow it to exist or come into creation when he created the universe, permitting free will or not. Thus, there is no God.

Another proof that God doesn't exist is that many theists claim that logic rests with God. Without God, logic falls into pieces. If that were the case, then the Law of Identity (A=A) as well as plenty pretty much any logically correspondent statement is independent upon God, just nullifying any logical basis for God. Think of this way: with or without God, the universe will always hold that the Law of Identity is true. Thus, there can be no God if logic depends on God. The same is true with any system of morality. If morality depends on God, and morality can be defined without the use of God, then God must not exist.

Another argument against God is the absoluteness of nature. Scientific laws can't be broken. Thus, God, who is an arbiter of scientific laws and can violate them as he wishes, can't possibly exist, or at least not in that form.

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] So, you argue that it's a fact that this happened and that this theory is without any doubt reliable? Snipes_2

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="theone86"]

A. You're just jumping to the conclusion that an omnipotent or supernatural being exists (in fact I can prove an omnipotentbeing does not in fact exist)

B. Just because we cannot see the beginning does not mean that beginning does not exist. In orther words just because there IS a beginning doesn't mean that god is the correct explanation.

C. How do you know physical things need to be created? Perhaps there are laws of the physical universe we do not know yet that can explain how matter can exist without a creator god.

theone86

Could god create a rock so powerful that he could not lift it? If the answer is yes then he is unable to lift said rock, if the answer is no then he is unable to create said rock. Even if there is an unimaginably powerful being, it can still not be truly omnipotent.

What do you mean why?

Nope. There's still no evidence for the existence of god, at best you can say the idea of god is something to explain the things in life we don't understand, which is a fallacy of trying to explain something that is at present incapable of explanation.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="theone86"]

No, they don't.

loquaciousness

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] The Big Bang is a Theory, Like I said, you have miracles to look at if you want proof of Gods existence. Snipes_2

A theory based around scientifically proven principles.

while it is not an absolute, i haven't seen any miracles either. IMHO, it is just as likely as the presence of a god

Please believe that i am trying to be as delicate as i possibly can.

But there are hundres of websites devoted to showing why god deoesn't exist

HERE for example. believing everything the internet tells you is not proof of god. or that the big bang theory is wrong. or that i don't have three arms.

please come back to me when you have something more than a heavily biased website.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"]Almost certainly.loquaciousness

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

Worst argument for the existence of miracles of the weeeeeeeeeeeekloquaciousness

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"]Worst argument for the existence of miracles of the weeeeeeeeeeeekAirGuitarist87

i think it's pretty impressive.

If that was his intention

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

A theory based around scientifically proven principles.

while it is not an absolute, i haven't seen any miracles either. IMHO, it is just as likely as the presence of a god

TroubleMaker411

Please believe that i am trying to be as delicate as i possibly can.

But there are hundres of websites devoted to showing why god deoesn't exist

HERE for example. believing everything the internet tells you is not proof of god. or that the big bang theory is wrong. or that i don't have three arms.

please come back to me when you have something more than a heavily biased website.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

loquaciousness

Actually, you don't even need to make an argument against the third one. The third one is an argument in favor of the Big Bang. I imagine that he just posted it because of the title.

I remember the days when one actually had to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it, rather than just going to Google and pasting links whose page titles sound good... :(

They have no proof, and their argument is "You haz no proofz either".

Snipes_2

Athiests are not the one making a positive claim.

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

GabuEx

Actually, you don't need to make an argument against the third one. The third one is an argument in favor of the Big Bang. I imagine that he just posted it because of the title.

I remember the days when one actually had to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it, rather than just going to Google and pasting links whose page titles sound good... :(

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="GabuEx"] Name one physical thing that was not created by someone or something. GabuEx

So you can't prove it then, just checking.

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

Snipes_2

Hmm.

I'm assuming you read those links and completely understood what they were talking about, and that you didn't just read the title and then post the link?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Miracles have evidence...Snipes_2

No, they don't.

There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. Snipes_2

I'm surprised that upon reading the first and last page, no one's mentioned the problem of evil. Well, that is my contention for why there is no God. Essentially, the problem of evil is that evil exists and if there were a perfect God, he wouldn't allow it to exist or come into creation when he created the universe, permitting free will or not. Thus, there is no God. Another proof that God doesn't exist is that many theists claim that logic rests with God. Without God, logic falls into pieces. If that were the case, then the Law of Identity (A=A) as well as plenty pretty much any logically correspondent statement is independent upon God, just nullifying any logical basis for God. Think of this way: with or without God, the universe will always hold that the Law of Identity is true. Thus, there can be no God if logic depends on God. The same is true with any system of morality. If morality depends on God, and morality can be defined without the use of God, then God must not exist. Another argument against God is the sanctity of nature. Scientific laws can't be broken. Thus, God, who is an arbiter of scientific laws and can violate them as he wishes, can't possibly exist, or at least not in that form.Genetic_Code

That presupposes that good and evil exist.

Just because you can conceive of the laws of identity holding true without god does not mean they would hold true without god, or with god for that matter. Just because morality can be defined without god does not mean there is no god, morality could still be dependent on god. Also, you're using a subjective term inmorality.

Just because god can break scientific laws doesn't mean he cannot exist, he is a being who can manipulate them. I like where this line of reasoning leads, though. If god can break the laws of nature, and one tries to prove the existence of god through the laws of nature (laws of thermodynamics), then how can we know that the laws of nature hold true when trying to prove god's existence?

Wow, You said prove that every physical thing needs a creator or something to have happened to create it. There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. Snipes_2

Yes, I asked you to prove that every physical thing needs a creator or something to have happened to create it. You didn't. So I'm still waiting for you to do so.

[QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] I posted a video of one so you can see for yourself :)Snipes_2

Please believe that i am trying to be as delicate as i possibly can.

But there are hundres of websites devoted to showing why god deoesn't exist

HERE for example. believing everything the internet tells you is not proof of god. or that the big bang theory is wrong. or that i don't have three arms.

please come back to me when you have something more than a heavily biased website.

the point is that just googleing "big bang theory not real" or whatever you done is not proving the argument.

You can google essentially anything and you will find something to prove it.

did you anderstand anything that was said in those sites? or did you just assume that they were correct and posted them?

[QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"][QUOTE="loquaciousness"]Worst argument for the existence of miracles of the weeeeeeeeeeeekloquaciousness

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"]No. Make an argument, then I'll respond. I don't have time for lazy people googling 'big bang disproved' or something to that effect and crapping the results onto the thread as a response.loquaciousness

Actually, you don't need to make an argument against the third one. The third one is an argument in favor of the Big Bang. I imagine that he just posted it because of the title.

I remember the days when one actually had to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it, rather than just going to Google and pasting links whose page titles sound good... :(

Link spammers have to be one of the worst things the internet has produced.

Wow, You said prove that every physical thing needs a creator or something to have happened to create it. There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. Snipes_2

Why bother Snipes...you'll never convince them..they'll never convince you..it'd just lead to that loquacious guy mudslinging as he does on every other one of his alts..

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"] Did you just work a Harry Hill's TV Burp gag into a religious debate? :oAirGuitarist87

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

http://www.charliewagner.net/big.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/az/BIGBANGisWRONG/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/science-and-technology/65560-preaching-evolutionism-the-big-bang-theory-dismantled-false.html

Refute these points then please.

GabuEx

Actually, you don't even need to make an argument against the third one. The third one is an argument in favor of the Big Bang. I imagine that he just posted it because of the title.

I remember the days when one actually had to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it, rather than just going to Google and pasting links whose page titles sound good... :(

I remember the days when users could actually argue without attempting to belittle the other user. Good Old days indeed.

"and to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it"

Irony..

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] How did everything come into being then? Snipes_2

Do you mean the universe as we know it? Big bang+millions of years of evolution. The mass that created the big bang? Who knows, but just because it's currently unkown does not mean god is a logical explanation.

OT + trolltastic religion thread = lulz.

There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. Snipes_2

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Do you mean the universe as we know it? Big bang+millions of years of evolution. The mass that created the big bang? Who knows, but just because it's currently unkown does not mean god is a logical explanation.

Teenaged

My proof = infinite regression...google it. I am not going to say I am a full blown Atheist. I understand that for whatever reason I have a conscious mind with a lot of questions about why and how we came to be. However all the thoughts, ideas and methods that most organized religions try to base their "facts" on are not grounded in any real rationality.

If I am judged for having too many questions, no answers and a SEVERE deficit of evidence then so be it. If whatever god "loves" me or wants certain criteria met he should have developed a better game plan.

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. Snipes_2

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"]No. Make an argument, then I'll respond. I don't have time for lazy people googling 'big bang disproved' or something to that effect and crapping the results onto the thread as a response.Snipes_2

Actually, you don't even need to make an argument against the third one. The third one is an argument in favor of the Big Bang. I imagine that he just posted it because of the title.

I remember the days when one actually had to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it, rather than just going to Google and pasting links whose page titles sound good... :(

I remember the days when users could actually argue without attempting to belittle the other user. Good Old days indeed.

"and to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it"

Irony..

Yes, I read the third link. The third link presents ten attempted arguments against the Big Bang, and then rebuts them. You would have known this if you had read the third link. You obviously didn't. No offense, but lying on top of posting links whose contents you didn't read or understand is not very becoming.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] A). Do so please. B). Why? C). Would it help if I said "As of now"?Snipes_2

Could god create a rock so powerful that he could not lift it? If the answer is yes then he is unable to lift said rock, if the answer is no then he is unable to create said rock. Even if there is an unimaginably powerful being, it can still not be truly omnipotent.

What do you mean why?

Nope. There's still no evidence for the existence of god, at best you can say the idea of god is something to explain the things in life we don't understand, which is a fallacy of trying to explain something that is at present incapable of explanation.

God is still not omnipotent, as evidenced by his use of the phrase "within limitations"

Say we admit that there is a beginning to the universe, something from which everything else came, why does that necessitate a god?

I don't trust the validity of those miracles, and if we said for arguments sake that they did take place that still does not prove the existence fo a god, it simply proves that a supernatural event occured. And god/creator, interchangable. THere is no way for you to concretely know that matter cannot come into existence by some means other than a creator.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="TroubleMaker411"]

Please believe that i am trying to be as delicate as i possibly can.

But there are hundres of websites devoted to showing why god deoesn't exist

HERE for example. believing everything the internet tells you is not proof of god. or that the big bang theory is wrong. or that i don't have three arms.

please come back to me when you have something more than a heavily biased website.

TroubleMaker411

the point is that just googleing "big bang theory not real" or whatever you done is not proving the argument.

You can google essentially anything and you will find something to prove it.

did you anderstand anything that was said in those sites? or did you just assume that they were correct and posted them?

Dude bro I'm a Christian, but just like you can't prove he doesn't, you can't prove that He DoeS exisit either. Gotta have faith, man.

I remember the days when one actually had to have knowledge of a subject in order to discuss it, rather than just going to Google and pasting links whose page titles sound good... :(

GabuEx

[QUOTE="loquaciousness"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] [QUOTE="Snipes_2"]There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. Snipes_2

I got a few things together last week and magically created myself a loaf of bread and some chocolate brownies.

Does that make me a god?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]Wow, You said prove that every physical thing needs a creator or something to have happened to create it. There it is, you have no proof of anything that was not created by someone or some thing. jaydough

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Could god create a rock so powerful that he could not lift it? If the answer is yes then he is unable to lift said rock, if the answer is no then he is unable to create said rock. Even if there is an unimaginably powerful being, it can still not be truly omnipotent.

What do you mean why?

Nope. There's still no evidence for the existence of god, at best you can say the idea of god is something to explain the things in life we don't understand, which is a fallacy of trying to explain something that is at present incapable of explanation.

theone86

God is still not omnipotent, as evidenced by his use of the phrase "within limitations"

Say we admit that there is a beginning to the universe, something from which everything else came, why does that necessitate a god?

I don't trust the validity of those miracles, and if we said for arguments sake that they did take place that still does not prove the existence fo a god, it simply proves that a supernatural event occured. And god/creator, interchangable. THere is no way for you to concretely know that matter cannot come into existence by some means other than a creator.