Why I am against abortion

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luke1889

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#101 luke1889
Member since 2004 • 14617 Posts
Abortion is fine in the right circumstances. Stop being so absolute.
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jimmyjammer69

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#103 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Sure, there are some cases where abortion seems like the only option, but what does it mean for the value of human life if it becomes equivalent to retrospective contraception?-Sun_Tzu-

What you are saying is both a slippery slope and a straw man. Even if you were to assume that a fetus is as human as you or me, if the mother-to-be does not want to carry said fetus to term, then she shouldn't have to carry said fetus to term. I think that someone in this thread already brought up the work of Judith Thomson. She argued that abortion doesn't deny a fetus the right to live, rather abortion deprives the fetus the use of the mother's womb, a use that no one has a right to use without permission of the mother. If an unwelcomed visitor comes to your house, you are not under any obligation to provide food a shelter to said visitor, and you have every right to evict said visitor from your residence if you choose to do so.

Which would be a good argument if there was another way for the foetus to survive. If the unwelcome guest, however, had been invited by me (let's imagine I wrote her invitations every day but never expected her to accept), I'd say I was under an obligation not to throw her out onto the street to die.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#104 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Sure, there are some cases where abortion seems like the only option, but what does it mean for the value of human life if it becomes equivalent to retrospective contraception?jimmyjammer69

What you are saying is both a slippery slope and a straw man. Even if you were to assume that a fetus is as human as you or me, if the mother-to-be does not want to carry said fetus to term, then she shouldn't have to carry said fetus to term. I think that someone in this thread already brought up the work of Judith Thomson. She argued that abortion doesn't deny a fetus the right to live, rather abortion deprives the fetus the use of the mother's womb, a use that no one has a right to use without permission of the mother. If an unwelcomed visitor comes to your house, you are not under any obligation to provide food a shelter to said visitor, and you have every right to evict said visitor from your residence if you choose to do so.

Which would be a good argument if there was another way for the foetus to survive. If the unwelcome guest, however, had been invited by me (let's imagine I wrote her invitations every day but never expected her to accept), I'd say I was under an obligation not to throw her out onto the street to die.

Well the truth of the matter is that you are not under an obligation. Maybe a moral obligation but not a legal obligation. If you choose to let the person stay in your home, then great, that's your prerogative. But just because you choose to provide food and shelter for this visitor doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to provide every unwelcomed visitor (regardless of how they arrived at their home) with their own food and shelter.
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TheProtecter

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#105 TheProtecter
Member since 2009 • 715 Posts

I'm Pro-Choice, it's her body she can do what she wants.

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jimmyjammer69

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#106 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] What you are saying is both a slippery slope and a straw man. Even if you were to assume that a fetus is as human as you or me, if the mother-to-be does not want to carry said fetus to term, then she shouldn't have to carry said fetus to term. I think that someone in this thread already brought up the work of Judith Thomson. She argued that abortion doesn't deny a fetus the right to live, rather abortion deprives the fetus the use of the mother's womb, a use that no one has a right to use without permission of the mother. If an unwelcomed visitor comes to your house, you are not under any obligation to provide food a shelter to said visitor, and you have every right to evict said visitor from your residence if you choose to do so.

-Sun_Tzu-

Which would be a good argument if there was another way for the foetus to survive. If the unwelcome guest, however, had been invited by me (let's imagine I wrote her invitations every day but never expected her to accept), I'd say I was under an obligation not to throw her out onto the street to die.

Well the truth of the matter is that you are not under an obligation. Maybe a moral obligation but not a legal obligation. If you choose to let the person stay in your home, then great, that's your prerogative. But just because you choose to provide food and shelter for this visitor doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to provide every unwelcomed visitor (regardless of how they arrived at their home) with their own food and shelter.

I see what you mean. I guess I'm not an extremist on this one, as I can imagine situations where the lives of the parents and child would be more damaged by carrying the baby for 9 months than not. All I'm saying is that those situations are pretty rare, and hardly seem adequate for giving the go-ahead for aborting a child through reckless behaviour of the parents; I mean you wouldn't free a driver who ran over your child simply on the grounds that he was drunk, and so not really responsible for the consequences.

It's kind of upsetting that so many people wouldn't feel any moral obligation in this situation, and it really is pathetic that we still need laws to guard against the lazy impulse that leads to killing. Negligent killing seems so much easier when we're told it's biologically or geographically remote and protected by rights.

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calvinsora

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#107 calvinsora
Member since 2009 • 7076 Posts

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]I completely agree with TC on this. Abortion for convenience is just wrong. There are of course horrible pregnancies, but they're not the only ones who get abortions. There are many who just don't want kids. Every infant, in cell-form or not, will eventually have a life, and no-one has the right to take it away from them.tofu-lion91
What about natural abortions i.e miscarriages? God must be a baby killer :o Let's ban that too! Then the world will be perfect >____>

God doesn't cause miscarriages. People are fighting against miscarriages, and even though this has to be sarcasm, it's childish to drag miscarriages into this.

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McJugga

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#108 McJugga
Member since 2007 • 9453 Posts

Oh yeah, giving birth isn't painful at all. Yeah, hospitals are extremely cheap. Oh yes, we all know that she won't have major psychological problems after the whole affair. No, lets just close our eyes and stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything is okay. :D

jamacian_zombie

So murder will make everything all right? Won't murdering her child cause her psychological problems?

To all the people saying: "It is just a clump of cells that COULD become a human" It is a human. Just because you call it a fetus, and kill it before it properly forms does not make a difference.

To the people saying: "What if it turns out to have a bad life?" Then why not just murder born babies? They could also possibly have bad lives. They could be hit by a car and become physically disabled. They might see their friend die and become mentally disabled. Why not just kill all babies and save them from horrid lives.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#109 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
It's kind of upsetting that so many people wouldn't feel any moral obligation in this situationjimmyjammer69
I agree with you to an extent. I personally never would recommend for someone to get an abortion, but I don't want to force my own choice onto others. The whole abortion debate is debated in an arena of moral and legal ambiguity. As Noam Chomsky once said, "Choice is legitimate, preserving life is legitimate."
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glenn2709

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#110 glenn2709
Member since 2005 • 1719 Posts
It's up to each individual to chose, who are we to be against it.
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jimmyjammer69

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#111 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]It's kind of upsetting that so many people wouldn't feel any moral obligation in this situation-Sun_Tzu-
I agree with you to an extent. I personally never would recommend for someone to get an abortion, but I don't want to force my own choice onto others. The whole abortion debate is debated in an arena of moral and legal ambiguity. As Noam Chomsky once said, "Choice is legitimate, preserving life is legitimate."

It would be great if choice wasn't simply a matter of swimming against the current of popular opinion or giving in and letting liberal philosophy choose your course.
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OfficialBed

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#112 OfficialBed
Member since 2005 • 17668 Posts

What if that 6 day old baby was a product of a 13 year old girl getting raped by her grandfather?
I'm not joking, there is a place for abortion in society.
It's not always so cut and dry.

One more thing: The people going for abortions have their reasons. If they were forced to raise a child against their will, you can change that picture of a happy bride to a crackhead in a jail uniform.

Conjuration

Very well said, I agree with you.

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jimmyjammer69

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#113 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts

[QUOTE="Conjuration"]

What if that 6 day old baby was a product of a 13 year old girl getting raped by her grandfather?
I'm not joking, there is a place for abortion in society.
It's not always so cut and dry.

One more thing: The people going for abortions have their reasons. If they were forced to raise a child against their will, you can change that picture of a happy bride to a crackhead in a jail uniform.

OfficialBed

Very well said, I agree with you.

You're right that it's not always as straightforward as some extremists would have you believe, but are you both suggesting that every child who was adopted or brought up in a children's home has become a crackhead and deserves to deie?

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Lansdowne5

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#114 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts
Amen! No-one has the right to kill a child. Why give them the right to kill an un-born child?
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#115 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

Amen! No-one has the right to kill a child. Why give them the right to kill an un-born child?Lansdowne5

Child:

Not a child:

:x

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#116 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

I'm Pro-Choice, it's her body she can do what she wants.

TheProtecter
But it will develop into something which is not her's. If you look back, would you be happy that your mother had the choice to remove you if she wanted, simply because it was "her body"?
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AlphaRail

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#117 AlphaRail
Member since 2007 • 1789 Posts

If they don't want their fetus then they must've not been able to raise it meaning that person who would grow up with a person who didn't want it and could be the child who was killed when the father got mad at xbox or the children who were killed when their mother dropped a toaster in the bath tub or grow up to be a rapist because of their past. If the parents do not want the baby, they are most likely not ready, not willing to be or wouldn't be good parents. Also, if a person was raped, especially incest, than I am sure a few of them wouldn't even be able to look at their baby. Also, as Matty said those pictures are scare tactics. I'm pro choice(of course only the first trimester). Also, way to jump 4 months on the picture. Does anyone know when the baby actually has a working heart and brain?

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escapeoftheape

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#118 escapeoftheape
Member since 2007 • 1576 Posts
the right to kill an unborn child? is this not what you are doing when using a condom?
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matthayter700

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#119 matthayter700
Member since 2004 • 2606 Posts
So, McJugga, if I'm to interpret your post correctly, you'd consider a 6-day-old "baby" to be on the same level as a newborn baby, because... the former could become the latter? Let's say we're to consider an egg and a sperm; the combination of those two could eventually become a newborn baby; does this mean that refusing to reproduce is equivalent to killing a baby? May sound like a weak analogy, but what exactly is so special about the sperm meeting the egg? It's not like that's when consciousness starts; IIRC, last neuroscientist I asked said consciousness doesn't start until the third trimester. I suppose you could say it's "life" whether it's sentient or not, but life in what sense? The biological sense? Well, in the physics sense work refers to the product of applied force and resulting motion; this doesn't mean that we consider everything applying forces resulting in motion "work" with a paid wage; different meanings of "work" are involved. Similarily, "life" has more meanings than just the biological classifications; it could also refer to the sum of one's experiences; in which case, without a consciousness, how could one experience anything?
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AlphaRail

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#120 AlphaRail
Member since 2007 • 1789 Posts
the right to kill an unborn child? is this not what you are doing when using a condom?escapeoftheape
They will probably just say "Well I am just stopping a sperm and an egg from meeting, it's not like it is fertilized"
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rom11

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#121 rom11
Member since 2005 • 2049 Posts

What if that 6 day old baby was a product of a 13 year old girl getting raped by her grandfather?
I'm not joking, there is a place for abortion in society.
It's not always so cut and dry.

One more thing: The people going for abortions have their reasons. If they were forced to raise a child against their will, you can change that picture of a happy bride to a crackhead in a jail uniform.

Conjuration

I agree. It's not always so black and white.

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jus2nyce

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#122 jus2nyce
Member since 2005 • 1574 Posts

Believing life starts at contraception, you believe a sperm cell is human, because it has the possibility to develop into a human. And if you're like anyone one of those millions of boys who wank their wieners, you'd probably committed mass genocide by the age of 16.

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Vandalvideo

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#123 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] But it will develop into something which is not her's. If you look back, would you be happy that your mother had the choice to remove you if she wanted, simply because it was "her body"?

I already covered this in an indepth response back on page 2. Even if you assume that a fetus is a person, bodily autonomy can superscede right to life. It isn't guaranteed.
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jimmyjammer69

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#124 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts

So, McJugga, if I'm to interpret your post correctly, you'd consider a 6-day-old "baby" to be on the same level as a newborn baby, because... the former could become the latter? Let's say we're to consider an egg and a sperm; the combination of those two could eventually become a newborn baby; does this mean that refusing to reproduce is equivalent to killing a baby? May sound like a weak analogy, but what exactly is so special about the sperm meeting the egg? It's not like that's when consciousness starts; IIRC, last neuroscientist I asked said consciousness doesn't start until the third trimester. I suppose you could say it's "life" whether it's sentient or not, but life in what sense? The biological sense? Well, in the physics sense work refers to the product of applied force and resulting motion; this doesn't mean that we consider everything applying forces resulting in motion "work" with a paid wage; different meanings of "work" are involved. Similarily, "life" has more meanings than just the biological classifications; it could also refer to the sum of one's experiences; in which case, without a consciousness, how could one experience anything?matthayter700
Not a big fan of such definitions myself, but couldn't it be argued that conception involves the natural formation of a new genetic sequence, capable of self replicating?

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DrSponge

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#125 DrSponge
Member since 2008 • 12763 Posts
Honestly I don't care anymore. It's not like the person who's getting an abortion has malicious intentions...so doesn't harm me.
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deactivated-5a84f3399aa1c

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#126 deactivated-5a84f3399aa1c
Member since 2005 • 6504 Posts
Honestly I don't care anymore. It's not like the person who's getting an abortion has malicious intentions...so doesn't harm me.DrSponge
Pretty much my point of view. It don't effect me.
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morpheusnj

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#127 morpheusnj
Member since 2004 • 1943 Posts
I'm against it for same reasons. if someone cant raise a child, they should just put it up for adoption, not murder it. the mother has no right to kill her children ever.
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tofu-lion91

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#128 tofu-lion91
Member since 2008 • 13496 Posts
I'm against it for same reasons. if someone cant raise a child, they should just put it up for adoption, not murder it. the mother has no right to kill her children ever.morpheusnj
So a fetus now = a fully concious, breathing, learning new born baby? Right...
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#129 RadBooley
Member since 2008 • 1237 Posts

I'm against it for same reasons. if someone cant raise a child, they should just put it up for adoption, not murder it. the mother has no right to kill her children ever.morpheusnj

Yes, if only adoption was a perfect system. If only every child put up for adoption found a home with loving parents. If only the process to adopt a child wasn't so convoluted.

If only.

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Vandalvideo

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#130 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
I'm against it for same reasons. if someone cant raise a child, they should just put it up for adoption, not murder it. the mother has no right to kill her children ever.morpheusnj
Easily arguable. Even assuming a fetus is a person, right to life isn't always taking precedent over right to bodily autonomy (See p. 2)
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tofu-lion91

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#131 tofu-lion91
Member since 2008 • 13496 Posts

God doesn't cause miscarriages. People are fighting against miscarriages, and even though this has to be sarcasm, it's childish to drag miscarriages into this.calvinsora

It's childish because it's completely related but you don't agree with it. I can see out of the both of us who's the childish one...

So murder will make everything all right? Won't murdering her child cause her psychological problems?

To all the people saying: "It is just a clump of cells that COULD become a human" It is a human. McJugga

It might be a human fetus but it is not on par with a newborn baby and therefore doesn't deserve the same rights. If it can't survive outside the womb then it's not 'alive' and should be allowed to be aborted as a last resort.

Of course abortion will mess you up psychologically for a while but not half as much as giving it up for adoption and years later seeing a kid in the street about the same age as yours would be and thinking "Is it mine?" and also getting the knock on the door from the kid that wants to find his mum.

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TM_Darkside

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#132 TM_Darkside
Member since 2007 • 3993 Posts

I love how conservatives are so heavily opposed to abortion, but once that fetus becomes a breathing baby they have no interest in helping it.

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Lansdowne5

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#133 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts
Lol. It's odd, isn't it? A person who murders a pregnant woman is charged with two murders. Yet, a person who murders their own, is charged with nothing!
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Vandalvideo

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#134 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
Lol. It's odd, isn't it? A person who murders a pregnant woman is charged with two murders. Yet, a person who murders their own, is charged with nothing! Lansdowne5
Murder must involve mens rea. Good luck proving mens rea in abortion cases.
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Paladin_King

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#135 Paladin_King
Member since 2008 • 11832 Posts

Doesn't really work as far as convincing pro-choicers, whose entire reason for being pro-choice is their belief in a different sense of logic, that being that things aren't one and the same with what they WILL be.

Essentially, pro-lifers are futurists at best, or perhaps to some extent individuals (like TC) for whom the concept of time is...a little less rigid. Pro-choicers on the other hand are by and large devoted presentists, and so TC's argument isn't really one that proves them wrong. It's merely an entirely different sort of logic from that with pro-choicers use....the problem is that it's DAMNED hard to prove one logic as being entirely correct, or better than the other, hence the impasse we're at. TC makes no attempt at even making this argument, merely throwing one logic in our face without even mentioning the other.

For TC and many pro-lifers, an appleseed (planted, mind you) is absolutely the same thing as a fully ripe, plucked, cleaned, and ready to eat apple, because that's what the seed would be eventually, and time is not something by which to separate objects.. For the pro-choicer, there's the appleseed and there's the apple, two entirely different objects. You eat an appleseed, and it sure as hell doesn't taste like an apple.

TC's argument takes the apple = appleseed argument even further. He's basically now saying that appleseed = apple tree = apple = apple sauce = apple pie. All are exactly the same simply because one can lead into another. There is no difference between the appleseed (first pic) and the apple pie (last pic), whereas for the pro-choicer, all that's going to elicit is a "wtf?" Different logic....

Also, saying appleseed = apple pie is also troubling since there's no guarantee that the apple from the apple seed will be MADE into an apple pie (basically, what i'm saying is that TC's assumption that she WILL be a "bride" is a bit too much).

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Lansdowne5

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#136 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]God doesn't cause miscarriages. People are fighting against miscarriages, and even though this has to be sarcasm, it's childish to drag miscarriages into this.tofu-lion91

It's childish because it's completely related but you don't agree with it. I can see out of the both of us who's the childish one...

So murder will make everything all right? Won't murdering her child cause her psychological problems?

To all the people saying: "It is just a clump of cells that COULD become a human" It is a human. McJugga

It might be a human fetus but it is not on par with a newborn baby and therefore doesn't deserve the same rights. If it can't survive outside the womb then it's not 'alive' and should be allowed to be aborted as a last resort.

Of course abortion will mess you up psychologically for a while but not half as much as giving it up for adoption and years later seeing a kid in the street about the same age as yours would be and thinking "Is it mine?" and also getting the knock on the door from the kid that wants to find his mum.

You ought to watch this.
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bean-with-bacon

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#137 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts

I love how conservatives are so heavily opposed to abortion, but once that fetus becomes a breathing baby they have no interest in helping it.

TM_Darkside
That is actually an excellent point, a women has a baby she cannot support, is in debt because of the costs in having the baby, cannot support the baby financially and has become emotionally attatched and doesn't want to give it up for adoption, but then the same conservatives screaming at her to not "murder" her baby are now screaming that they shouldn't have to support lazy bums, I work hard for my money, it's disgusting, sanctity of life? You have people living in the streets for goods sake! And they have the gall think they're saving lives.
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McJugga

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#138 McJugga
Member since 2007 • 9453 Posts

So, McJugga, if I'm to interpret your post correctly, you'd consider a 6-day-old "baby" to be on the same level as a newborn baby, because... the former could become the latter? Let's say we're to consider an egg and a sperm; the combination of those two could eventually become a newborn baby; does this mean that refusing to reproduce is equivalent to killing a baby? May sound like a weak analogy, but what exactly is so special about the sperm meeting the egg? It's not like that's when consciousness starts; IIRC, last neuroscientist I asked said consciousness doesn't start until the third trimester. I suppose you could say it's "life" whether it's sentient or not, but life in what sense? The biological sense? Well, in the physics sense work refers to the product of applied force and resulting motion; this doesn't mean that we consider everything applying forces resulting in motion "work" with a paid wage; different meanings of "work" are involved. Similarily, "life" has more meanings than just the biological classifications; it could also refer to the sum of one's experiences; in which case, without a consciousness, how could one experience anything?matthayter700

Simple as this, I am also against "safe" sex.

Being abstinent is not the same as creating and killing life.

Of course I do not believe it is so black and white. I know there are some grey areas. If someone were raped it is definitely different, and a harder issue to debate. However, I still believe that they should give birth to the baby and put it up for adoption. You can't justify all of abortion with a few rare cases (rape, incest).

If you can't handle a baby, keep your pants on.

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matthayter700

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#139 matthayter700
Member since 2004 • 2606 Posts
Lol. It's odd, isn't it? A person who murders a pregnant woman is charged with two murders. Yet, a person who murders their own, is charged with nothing! Lansdowne5
I think it should depend on whether or not it's far along enough in the pregnancy for consciousness to be present. But for what it's worth, I don't agree with the former. Obviously we need better consistency in terms of what to consider life and what not to consider life.
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TM_Darkside

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#140 TM_Darkside
Member since 2007 • 3993 Posts

[QUOTE="TM_Darkside"]

I love how conservatives are so heavily opposed to abortion, but once that fetus becomes a breathing baby they have no interest in helping it.

bean-with-bacon

That is actually an excellent point, a women has a baby she cannot support, is in debt because of the costs in having the baby, cannot support the baby financially and has become emotionally attatched and doesn't want to give it up for adoption, but then the same conservatives screaming at her to not "murder" her baby are now screaming that they shouldn't have to support lazy bums, I work hard for my money, it's disgusting, sanctity of life? You have people living in the streets for goods sake! And they have the gall think they're saving lives.

My thoughts exactly.

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lucky326

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#141 lucky326
Member since 2006 • 3799 Posts
I'm against it because I'm for a strong army.
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TM_Darkside

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#142 TM_Darkside
Member since 2007 • 3993 Posts

[QUOTE="tofu-lion91"]

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

It's childish because it's completely related but you don't agree with it. I can see out of the both of us who's the childish one...

[QUOTE="McJugga"]So murder will make everything all right? Won't murdering her child cause her psychological problems?

To all the people saying: "It is just a clump of cells that COULD become a human" It is a human. Lansdowne5

It might be a human fetus but it is not on par with a newborn baby and therefore doesn't deserve the same rights. If it can't survive outside the womb then it's not 'alive' and should be allowed to be aborted as a last resort.

Of course abortion will mess you up psychologically for a while but not half as much as giving it up for adoption and years later seeing a kid in the street about the same age as yours would be and thinking "Is it mine?" and also getting the knock on the door from the kid that wants to find his mum.

You ought to watch this.

Why would I watch a video of some 12-year old girl discussing topics she knows nothing about?

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Lansdowne5

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#143 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"]

It might be a human fetus but it is not on par with a newborn baby and therefore doesn't deserve the same rights. If it can't survive outside the womb then it's not 'alive' and should be allowed to be aborted as a last resort.

Of course abortion will mess you up psychologically for a while but not half as much as giving it up for adoption and years later seeing a kid in the street about the same age as yours would be and thinking "Is it mine?" and also getting the knock on the door from the kid that wants to find his mum.

TM_Darkside

You ought to watch this.

Why would I watch a video of some 12-year old girl discussing topics she knows nothing about?

Unless you're an alternate account of Tofu-lion....you wouldn't....because I wasn't talking to you. ;)
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DrSponge

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#144 DrSponge
Member since 2008 • 12763 Posts
[QUOTE="TM_Darkside"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] You ought to watch this.Lansdowne5

Why would I watch a video of some 12-year old girl discussing topics she knows nothing about?

Unless you're an alternate account of Tofu-lion....you wouldn't....because I wasn't talking to you. ;)

Maybe he has the same viewpoint as T-L?
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matthayter700

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#145 matthayter700
Member since 2004 • 2606 Posts

Simple as this, I am also against "safe" sex. Be abstinent is not the same as creating and killing life. Of course I do not believe it is so black and white. I know there are some grey areas. If someone were raped it is definitely different, and a harder issue to debate. However, I still believe that they should give birth to the baby and put it up for adoption. You can't justify all of abortion with a few rare cases (rape, incest). If you can't handle a baby, keep your pants on.McJugga

As far as I'm concerned, the very issue of exceptions for rape and incest should be a reminder that it's not as simple as "keep your pants on"; let's not forget that people are also socially pressured into sex as well to some extent. Me, I'm disinclined to pursue sexual relationships until I have reason to believe one can deal with the consequences. But to people used to being in those relationships, or otherwise used to succumbing to other social pressures, that's easier said than done.

You say being abstinent is not the same as "creating and killing life" but you seem to have missed the entire point I made about I made in that post about there being different meanings to the term "life" just like to the term "work"; so why revert immediately back to the simplistic use of the word "life"?

You talk about adoption, but if a person puts a child up for adoption and the child doesn't get adopted, what's the alternative, being put in an orphanage? Also, there is a certain level of emotional conflict involved in someone having to carry a child for 9 months and give it up after birth. I think it would be better to, during the pregnancy, stop the consciousness before it starts.

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bean-with-bacon

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#146 bean-with-bacon
Member since 2008 • 2134 Posts
[QUOTE="TM_Darkside"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] You ought to watch this.Lansdowne5

Why would I watch a video of some 12-year old girl discussing topics she knows nothing about?

Unless you're an alternate account of Tofu-lion....you wouldn't....because I wasn't talking to you. ;)

Or maybe he thought it was an open request and discussion, like most things on forums are...
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Lansdowne5

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#147 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

Maybe he has the same viewpoint as T-L?

DrSponge

Maybe he does.

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drj077

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#148 drj077
Member since 2003 • 8375 Posts

There was a time in Britain when medical professionals used to implant IUDs into women without them knowingonce delivery occurred if the woman was unable financially or unfit to care for the child. This was done mostly because the government pays for healthcare and what the government wants...the government gets.

So, women would come into physicians months or years later and complain that they couldn't get pregnant. Doctors would do their exam and sure enough, they'd see the string from the IUD hanging out of cervix. A little tug, mention nothing of it, and behold, a miracle has occurred as now the woman can get pregnant again.

Granted, that would never work in the morally just and self-enlightened USA, but I always thought the above scenario and history was interesting.

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matthayter700

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#149 matthayter700
Member since 2004 • 2606 Posts

There was a time in Britain when medical professionals used to implant IUDs into women without them knowingonce delivery occurred if the woman was unable financially or unfit to care for the child. This was done mostly because the government pays for healthcare and what the government wants...the government gets.

So, women would come into physicians months or years later and complain that they couldn't get pregnant. Doctors would do their exam and sure enough, they'd see the string from the IUD hanging out of cervix. A little tug, mention nothing of it, and behold, a miracle has occurred as now the woman can get pregnant again.

Granted, that would never work in the morally just and self-enlightened USA, but I always thought the above scenario and history was interesting.drj077

What exactly makes the USA so much more "morally just" and "self-enlightened"? Sounds like obnoxious holier-than-thou nationalism to me.I'm a Canadian by the way, and I haven't heard of that kind of thing in Canada,and the government pays for healthcare here too.

In any case, to me it sounds absurd to blame that kind of thing on public healthcare; what about private doctors who want the money from selling an abortion and therefore would want to encourage abortion?

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Lansdowne5

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#150 Lansdowne5
Member since 2008 • 6015 Posts

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="TM_Darkside"]

Why would I watch a video of some 12-year old girl discussing topics she knows nothing about?

bean-with-bacon

Unless you're an alternate account of Tofu-lion....you wouldn't....because I wasn't talking to you. ;)

Or maybe he thought it was an open request and discussion, like most things on forums are...

Which is why I said "you" instead of "you guys", and is the reason why I replied to Tofu-lion directly rather than posted it openly on the forum.