Why I am against abortion

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

[QUOTE="chugachea"]

If a woman wants to do that to her body, thats her business. Plus a cell isnt even alive ( feel emotions and such ). Lastly, if a woman can't have an abortion and is forced into having a child, she may not raise it to the best of her ability which might lead to the child having a not so great life.

chessmaster1989

Still, it's like beating a brick wall, I doubt anyone will change their minds here, which is sad because the people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder.

Wow, thanks for the compliment :roll:.

When you can't convince them, insult them! Yay...

When I talk of brick walls, I mean me as well. As for my last sentence, if you read this topic through, there are many people arguing many factors, and that's how I feel about the matter. If you saw it as insulting, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention. The only time I support abortion is if the mother's life is in danger and its the baby or the mother, but there aren't many who are against that.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="calvinsora"]abortion is pre-mature murder.calvinsora

We're not in a court of law here. I also clearly stated "pre-mature murder", which is not exactly the same as clear cut murder. In your case of people plants, the main difference here is that the person who keeps his window open isn't of the same species as the plant. If the plant would later form into the same life-form shortly thereafter, I wouldn't remove the plant, as I would see it as destroying a life, happy or not. Though some points are viable, it still doesn't justify removing something that could have lived otherwise.

I really don't see how your analogy proves anything...

Someone you don't know aborting a baby doesn't effect you in any way, shape, or form. Why do you have to be all uppity about it?supercubedude64

did that stop you from getting all uppity about it?

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

Still, it's like beating a brick wall, I doubt anyone will change their minds here, which is sad because the people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder.

calvinsora

Wow, thanks for the compliment :roll:.

When you can't convince them, insult them! Yay...

When I talk of brick walls, I mean me as well. As for my last sentence, if you read this topic through, there are many people arguing many factors, and that's how I feel about the matter. If you saw it as insulting, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention. The only time I support abortion is if the mother's life is in danger and its the baby or the mother, but there aren't many who are against that.

Well, I'll take your word that you meant no insult. That said, using phrases like "it's like beating a brick wall" and "which is sad because people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder" are not conducive to good arguments, since the second (regardless of whether or not you include yourself) is a clear criticism-bordering-on-insult, while the first half of the second statement overgeneralizes the thoughts of pro-choice people, and the second states your opinion as a fact.

We're not in a court of law here. I also clearly stated "pre-mature murder", which is not exactly the same as clear cut murder. In your case of people plants, the main difference here is that the person who keeps his window open isn't of the same species as the plant. If the plant would later form into the same life-form shortly thereafter, I wouldn't remove the plant, as I would see it as destroying a life, happy or not. Though some points are viable, it still doesn't justify removing something that could have lived otherwise.calvinsora

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Wow, thanks for the compliment :roll:.

When you can't convince them, insult them! Yay...

chessmaster1989

When I talk of brick walls, I mean me as well. As for my last sentence, if you read this topic through, there are many people arguing many factors, and that's how I feel about the matter. If you saw it as insulting, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention. The only time I support abortion is if the mother's life is in danger and its the baby or the mother, but there aren't many who are against that.

Well, I'll take your word that you meant no insult. That said, using phrases like "it's like beating a brick wall" and "which is sad because people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder" are not conducive to good arguments, since the second (regardless of whether or not you include yourself) is a clear criticism-bordering-on-insult, while the first half of the second statement overgeneralizes the thoughts of pro-choice people, and the second states your opinion as a fact.

Though it may not look like it, everything that's posted on here is an opinion. People phrasing words in a way that sounds conclusive still are only looking through their own eyes regarding an argument, as I am. This is what I see when I look at the arguments of pro-choice people. I've just yet to see a solid argument. As for beating a brick wall, that just means that it's pointless to argue this at all. That's at least what this phrase means to me.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

When I talk of brick walls, I mean me as well. As for my last sentence, if you read this topic through, there are many people arguing many factors, and that's how I feel about the matter. If you saw it as insulting, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention. The only time I support abortion is if the mother's life is in danger and its the baby or the mother, but there aren't many who are against that.

calvinsora

Well, I'll take your word that you meant no insult. That said, using phrases like "it's like beating a brick wall" and "which is sad because people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder" are not conducive to good arguments, since the second (regardless of whether or not you include yourself) is a clear criticism-bordering-on-insult, while the first half of the second statement overgeneralizes the thoughts of pro-choice people, and the second states your opinion as a fact.

Though it may not look like it, everything that's posted on here is an opinion. People phrasing words in a way that sounds conclusive still are only looking through their own eyes regarding an argument, as I am. This is what I see when I look at the arguments of pro-choice people. I've just yet to see a solid argument. As for beating a brick wall, that just means that it's pointless to argue this at all. That's at least what this phrase means to me.

Of course everything here is an opinion. Stating it as a fact, as you did, is what the problem is :?.

There is no solid argument for or against abortion, because the matter is entirely one of morality. I have yet to see a solid argument here against abortion.

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]We're not in a court of law here. I also clearly stated "pre-mature murder", which is not exactly the same as clear cut murder. In your case of people plants, the main difference here is that the person who keeps his window open isn't of the same species as the plant. If the plant would later form into the same life-form shortly thereafter, I wouldn't remove the plant, as I would see it as destroying a life, happy or not. Though some points are viable, it still doesn't justify removing something that could have lived otherwise.Vandalvideo

The social concept of murder and the phrase itself can be two completely different things. Vegetarians who claim meat is murder can of course regard it as such though according to mens rea, it isn't. As for the people plants, a foetus is a host only in the most basic sense. If a microscopic lifeform attaches itself to you, that's a completely harmful coalescence to one person and completely beneficial for the other entity. As soon as we're talking about the same species, the general concept is bound to be changed.

I morally oppose abortion for the same reasons, but do not think any state or government has the right to make a woman's choice for her. Abortion should stay legal, and we should do everything possible to avoid unwanted pregnancy's and do something about the racket that is adoption auctions.

The social concept of murder and the phrase itself can be two completely different things. Vegetarians who claim meat is murder can of course regard it as such though according to mens rea, it isn't. As for the people plants, a foetus is a host only in the most basic sense. If a microscopic lifeform attaches itself to you, that's a completely harmful coalescence to one person and completely beneficial for the other entity. As soon as we're talking about the same species, the general concept is bound to be changed.calvinsora

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Well, I'll take your word that you meant no insult. That said, using phrases like "it's like beating a brick wall" and "which is sad because people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder" are not conducive to good arguments, since the second (regardless of whether or not you include yourself) is a clear criticism-bordering-on-insult, while the first half of the second statement overgeneralizes the thoughts of pro-choice people, and the second states your opinion as a fact.

chessmaster1989

Though it may not look like it, everything that's posted on here is an opinion. People phrasing words in a way that sounds conclusive still are only looking through their own eyes regarding an argument, as I am. This is what I see when I look at the arguments of pro-choice people. I've just yet to see a solid argument. As for beating a brick wall, that just means that it's pointless to argue this at all. That's at least what this phrase means to me.

Of course everything here is an opinion. Stating it as a fact, as you did, is what the problem is :?.

There is no solid argument for or against abortion, because the matter is entirely one of morality. I have yet to see a solid argument here against abortion.

That's my point, it admittedly looks like I'm stating fact, but I'm concsious about the fact that it isn't. Many have also stated that abortion is all right, and state is a fact, but that's what these topics are about, trying to show the faults in another argument. This is ultimately a matter of morality, as you state, and when push comes to shove, this topic is pointless in the end. However, as long as people point out imperfections in my argument, I have to stand with it or else I lose whatever credibility I have in the first place.

For every bride like you posted,there is an unaborted fetus that grows up to be jeffery damher.mattykovax

So... for every married couple there is a gay scociopath killer? Statistics plz. O.O

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

Though it may not look like it, everything that's posted on here is an opinion. People phrasing words in a way that sounds conclusive still are only looking through their own eyes regarding an argument, as I am. This is what I see when I look at the arguments of pro-choice people. I've just yet to see a solid argument. As for beating a brick wall, that just means that it's pointless to argue this at all. That's at least what this phrase means to me.

calvinsora

Of course everything here is an opinion. Stating it as a fact, as you did, is what the problem is :?.

There is no solid argument for or against abortion, because the matter is entirely one of morality. I have yet to see a solid argument here against abortion.

However, as long as people point out imperfections in my argument, I have to stand with it or else I lose whatever credibility I have in the first place.

No, that's not true at all. Think about what's happened to AHUGECAT :P.

If there's an imperfection in your argument, admit the imperfection. Since it's a matter of morality, it really doesn't matter...

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]The social concept of murder and the phrase itself can be two completely different things. Vegetarians who claim meat is murder can of course regard it as such though according to mens rea, it isn't. As for the people plants, a foetus is a host only in the most basic sense. If a microscopic lifeform attaches itself to you, that's a completely harmful coalescence to one person and completely beneficial for the other entity. As soon as we're talking about the same species, the general concept is bound to be changed.Vandalvideo

If you would rather approve of me changing my phrasing, I will. I could just as well use the term "removal of potential life". As for the people plants, if we're all people plants, even though a spore comes through the window and sets in the carpet, it still gives us, as people plants, no right to remove it.

I am against abortion because of this:

That is a 6-day old baby.

Who will turn into a four month old baby:

Who will turn into:

Who will grow up to be a bride:

I don't believe that anyone has the right to take away the life of this human being who will grow up to have friends, be happy, feel pain, feel love, and to live life.McJugga

Cute, and emotional, you know how to speak.

However, reality has a way of always winning.

Drugs, firearms, old times of prohibition, and abortion. These are all things that either are banned, or people want(ed) them to be. You know what the banned ones have in common? There is a very robust and crime supporting black market for each of them. Instead of being legal and money going to everyone, it only goes to those who mostly use it wrongly. Do you think people wouldn't pay "Black" doctors to do abortions behind the scenes? Do you not think people would pay others to do gruesome abortions? If you do, you're living in fantasy. People are always going to make mistakes, and want their fetus gone. Just like we could ban heroin and coke all day, people are still going to use spoons and rusty needles to get what they want. Banning abortion is the dumbest and worst idea floating around right now. Because fantasy people like you talk to fantasy creationists. Good luck with your bans though. When they work, and you see mass people resorting to clothes hangars and such and the news, don't cry to me, I told you so. It could've been a lot nicer.

Why don't we leave the abortion issue to be sorted out by people who actually have a uterus? Some dudes telling a rape victim to keep her baby is just plain offensively sick to me.

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

Of course everything here is an opinion. Stating it as a fact, as you did, is what the problem is :?.

There is no solid argument for or against abortion, because the matter is entirely one of morality. I have yet to see a solid argument here against abortion.

chessmaster1989

However, as long as people point out imperfections in my argument, I have to stand with it or else I lose whatever credibility I have in the first place.

No, that's not true at all. Think about what's happened to AHUGECAT :P.

If there's an imperfection in your argument, admit the imperfection. Since it's a matter of morality, it really doesn't matter...

As I've already stated, I went to far in claiming that my suggestions were fact. However, what some percieve as (I admit imperfection was a wrong word) inconsistencies may not be inconsistencies in the eye of those who state them. Even though I don't state them as facts, my disposition towards abortion are generally the same, so I'm willing to fight for that.

If you would rather approve of me changing my phrasing, I will. I could just as well use the term "removal of potential life". As for the people plants, if we're all people plants, even though a spore comes through the window and sets in the carpet, it still gives us, as people plants, no right to remove it.calvinsora

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]

However, as long as people point out imperfections in my argument, I have to stand with it or else I lose whatever credibility I have in the first place.

calvinsora

No, that's not true at all. Think about what's happened to AHUGECAT :P.

If there's an imperfection in your argument, admit the imperfection. Since it's a matter of morality, it really doesn't matter...

As I've already stated, I went to far in claiming that my suggestions were fact. However, what some percieve as (I admit imperfection was a wrong word) inconsistencies may not be inconsistencies in the eye of those who state them. Even though I don't state them as facts, my disposition towards abortion are generally the same, so I'm willing to fight for that.

It's fine that your willing to continue espousing your beliefs. I have no problem with that. Also, imperfections and inconsistencies are very different things. I understand your post more, now.

I am an advocate for Choice in this matter, mostly because I believe that everyone has a right to live their life as they want to, within reason. If a woman gets raped, or even just had unprotected sex, she should have the OPTION to abort. It's not anybody else's business, especially in modern society. Yes, a woman might have different ideas about the moral ambiguities involved, and she may choose to keep the child. But that should be her choice, and not a requirement. I also believe that the same thing holds true for gay marriage; everybody has different ideas about the matter, but I believe that everybody should have the chance to live happily, by their standards. That's not to say that by happy, people should also be allowed to run up and steal, kill, and hurt others; hence the within reason.

While personally I wouldn't get one, I've heard stories that have led me to feel that abortion in certain cases is nessary. Especially if they are still just a kid, even worsey if they were raped. Holding something in your body for nine months is not just physical strain, but its mentally stressful, now also put on top of that the notion that you were pregnant because you were raped, in cases like this for the sanity of the mother abortion may be the only option. If you force that person to have a child by all chances that could be two lives that have been ruined. Its inhuman allow a person to go through something like that when they can't cope with it.fantasyfacade

You can put it down more simply than that.

"Babies can ruin lives."

So yeah...since babies can ruin lives, women should be able to get abortions in order to prevent babies.

Abortion should obviously be closely monitored and only allowed in certain situations, rape being one. If you forgot to use a condom, then you're just stupid.

Abortion should obviously be closely monitored and only allowed in certain situations, rape being one. If you forgot to use a condom, then you're just stupid.

DeathHeart95

Why should people who forget to use protection and end up having a kid they don't want be forced to raise the child?

It's bad for the child AND the parents.

Children aren't supposed to be punishment, y'know.

Abortion should obviously be closely monitored and only allowed in certain situations, rape being one. If you forgot to use a condom, then you're just stupid.

DeathHeart95

lol...punish the mom for being irresponsible by making her KIDS more likely to have a crappy life?

When you say that women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions, do you even care about the kids AT ALL?

I am for abortion because of this:

That is a 6-day old baby.

Who will turn into a four month old baby:

Who will turn into:

Who will grow up to be a Bill O'Reilly:

I believe that someone has the duty to take care of the human race and prevent the life of this human being who will grow up to shout down guests, quell happiness, cause pain, love to spread ignorance, and to live a purposeless and destructive life.

I am for abortion because of this:

That is a 6-day old baby.

Who will turn into a four month old baby:

Who will turn into:

Who will grow up to be a Bill O'Reilly:

I believe that someone has the duty to take care of the human race and prevent the life of this human being who will grow up to shout down guests, quell happiness, cause pain, love to spread ignorance, and to live a purposeless and destructive life.

clembo1990

:lol: great post :P

I am for abortion because of this:

clembo1990

fyi TC, this is a Scanning Electron Microscope picture. in order to take this picture, the "fetus" and the surrounding tissue would have to be removed from the woman, fixed and dehydrated in a chemical solution, stained with heavy metals, embedded in plastic, thinly sliced with a glass blade, and then placed in the pathway of an electron beam. In short, you killed a baby to get this picture, therefore you are an abortionist.

Welcome to dark side brother :twisted:

[QUOTE="clembo1990"]

I am for abortion because of this:

fyi TC, this is a Scanning Electron Microscope picture. in order to take this picture, the "fetus" and the surrounding tissue would have to be removed from the woman, fixed and dehydrated in a chemical solution, stained with heavy metals, embedded in plastic, thinly sliced with a glass blade, and then placed in the pathway of an electron beam. In short, you killed a baby to get this picture, therefore you are an abortionist.

Welcome to dark side brother :twisted:

Ugh, this abortion being "murder" nonsence is so infuriating. It's not murder because the unborn child is not legally classed as a human being until it is "wholly expelled" from the mother. So whatever you naysayers may want to be the case deep down inside, you're fighting a losing battle until your government and legislatures amend your laws. So please just shut up about the whole thing.luke1889

The following is something I once wrote with the intention of it being a Christian audience (mostly). (If you want to see where I have links to outside sources then look here)

I thought I'd share it as it's the same topic. :DWhy is it people should be against the idea of abortion? Why is it Christians should be in the forefront of the pro-life movement? What is wrong with abortion in the first place? What is more important, personal convenience or the life of an unborn child? What does scripture have to say about unborn life? If abortion is banned, what next? What about women who have had abortions? Is abortion that big of a deal? These are some questions I hope to answer in this note. I seek to answer these as not only a reference for other people but for myself. I do not only want to give religious answers (though I am obviously biased in this situation) but secular answers which would influence the non-believer.

Is abortion really that big of a problem? Yes. Many people in our culture seem to be unaware of just how prevalent abortion is within our nation and the world. One source states nearly half of all pregnancies to American women are unintended; four in 10 of these end in abortion. About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third (35%) will have had an abortion by age 45. 67% have never married and sadly 78% report a religious affiliation. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Another source states 1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). These statistics means the vast majority of abortions are merely done out of convenience rather than medical need.

Nauseous yet? Here are more statistics. In 2004, the highest number of reported legal induced abortions occurred in Florida (91,710), NYC (91,673), and Texas (74,801). Twenty-two percent of all U.S. pregnancies end in abortion. 47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion. 40% of minors having an abortion report that neither of their parents knew about the abortion.

Ok, that just states there a lot of abortions but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Let me give a scriptural reason for abortion being morally wrong. According to Abort 73, "There are a number of examples where Scripture uses the exact same words to describe babies before birth and babies after birth. In Genesis 25:22 we read, 'The children struggled together within her,' speaking of the twins in Rebekah's womb. The word children is the ordinary word used for children (or sons) outside the womb. Luke 1:41 tells us that "when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb". This is the same word for babe (brephos) that is used in Luke 2:12 and 16 for the baby Jesus and in Luke 18:15 for infants. Even more significant than the word usage is the description of what this unborn child did. John the Baptist, still in the womb, leapt for joy in recognition of the presence of Christ, who was also still in the womb. This is an in-utero prophecy of the arrival of Christ, and that is an astounding reality. "

Isaiah 49:1b states, "Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name." God has a plan for our lives before we are born, does that not mean we are important from the moment of conception? Not enough scriptural evidence of God loving us before birth? Jeremiah 1:5a says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart."

God is the creator of life and is the only one who should be allowed to end life (capital punishment excluded, topic for another day ). Isaiah 139:13 says, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." These are only a few passages pertaining to the issue of abortion and just these few gets the point across.

John Piper once said, "To attack the human being in the womb and kill him or her is to assault God. God is making the child. God is weaving a unique image of his divine glory with the purpose of imaging forth that glory in the world. Killing the child is an attack on God's glory and is treason against the Ruler of the universe. So, fundamentally and most importantly, abortion is about God because children are made by God in the image of God for the glory of God."

Piper also once said abortion "is the sacrificing of our sons and daughters to demons. And someday we will see this. And we will be as amazed that it could have endured so long as we are that the enslavement of Africans lasted as long as it did. The issue is just as clear as that one was. And we are just as blind today as they were then. The big difference is that the babies can't run away. The underground railroad is entirely dependent on you, not them."

One of the 10 commandments is that of you shall not murder as mentioned in Exodus 20:13. Murder here includes the life of an unborn child. Some who are "pro-choice" as they like to be called say this is not really a child in the womb but simply a piece of unintelligible meat no different than an animal. This is completely untrue not only biblically as already mentioned but biologically.

Here is a great source which shows just how unique the child is even at the moment of conception. One excerpt states, "Conception: Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother's egg cell, only one succeeds. At that very moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All of the inherited features of this new person are already set - whether it's a boy or girl, the color of the eyes, the color of the hair, the dimples of the cheeks and the cleft of the chin. He or she is smaller than a grain of sugar, but the instructions are present for all that this person will ever become. The first cell soon divides in two. Each of these new cells divides again and again as they travel toward the womb in search of a protected place to grow." I considered showing pictures of undeveloped aborted children to stress this point further but I can't bare to even see them. Also, I prefer to not have emotion be the basis for my arguments against abortion.

Even those who are naturalistic in their beliefs believe in survival of the fittest. Abortion simply does not make sense in that regards either as wouldn't the purpose for a species be to preserve itself? If that is the case then wouldn't the moral right be to continue the lives of humanity? Abortion is the opposite of that and is wrong according to evolutionary beliefs.

Biblical and biological reasons for abortion being wrong have been presented so now for legal reasons. Why is it that it is okay for a mother to kill her unborn child but if she is killed, it is considered a double homicide? Or how about if a person hits a pregnant woman that is also considered murder in the eyes of the court system? Why is it a mother and doctor can kill the child without legal consequences? Is there not a contradiction here? Why is it naturalistic beliefs such as this contradict one another?

Many women have also lost their children by natural means before birth. If the unborn is not human like abortionists say then why should the mother be upset about this? It's not like she can't have another after all. Maybe a fetus is something more than an animal. A fetus is a child in the making and should not be executed prematurely.

Is abortion just a convenience for people? According to the statistics listed in the beginning, apparently so for the vast majority. One of the reasons people have abortions at such a high rate is simply because many do not want to take responsibility for their actions. With every action there is a reaction. This statement works not only in science but every day life. If one thinks themselves not mature enough to raise children then that individual must realize the consequences of sexual promiscuity and not run from those consequences. If one does not like the possible consequences then do not cause them, in other words practice abstinence (which Christians should be practicing anyway...).

Abortion is a huge issue but there is one thing that would significantly decrease the number of abortions, decrease in non-marital sexual activity. Very evident is this logic but sadly many people will not sacrifice their pleasure for what is morally right (both abstinence and being pro-life). Even more fundamental to the problem with abortion is the fallen nature of humanity. Humanists, many naturalists, and others with disagree with the depravity of man argument, but this is indeed the overarching issue at hand.

What can a person do to help the pro-life movement? A major way is to adopt children. If a woman is unable to care for a child then adoption needs to be a choice. Abortion shouldn't be the only option a woman has. Not only does this help minister to the suffering women in these situations but it gives couples the opportunity raise a child of their own if they are unable. Even couples who are able to have children of their own should adopt if only to minister to these hurting women.

Many people are all supportive of the pro-life movement but they forget about the women hurting in these situations. They need help from the church and anyone who will give that help. They need love. This love and help for these women can never be forgotten as the child is not the only one who suffers. Churches and secular organizations need to do everything in their power to help these women who have had abortions and those who decide to raise these children. My heart breaks for those who have ever had to make this decision, whatever path they have chosen.

I will leave you with this passage from Psalm 82:3-4, "Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the rights of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

[QUOTE="DeathHeart95"]

Abortion should obviously be closely monitored and only allowed in certain situations, rape being one. If you forgot to use a condom, then you're just stupid.

RadBooley

Why should people who forget to use protection and end up having a kid they don't want be forced to raise the child?

It's bad for the child AND the parents.

Children aren't supposed to be punishment, y'know.

Because of Glitchspot formatting issues, I have put my comments in regular text, and mindstorm's comments in italics.

statistics-refer to the post if you want to see them

Interesting statistics, but, as you say, it doesn't make abortion wrong. I really don't see the point in including them.

I am not commenting on your scriptural reasons, because I am not Christian, and so do not follow the Bible.

Here is a great source which shows just how unique the child is even at the moment of conception. One excerpt states, "Conception: Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother's egg cell, only one succeeds. At that very moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All of the inherited features of this new person are already set - whether it's a boy or girl, the color of the eyes, the color of the hair, the dimples of the cheeks and the cleft of the chin. He or she is smaller than a grain of sugar, but the instructions are present for all that this person will ever become. The first cell soon divides in two. Each of these new cells divides again and again as they travel toward the womb in search of a protected place to grow." I considered showing pictures of undeveloped aborted children to stress this point further but I can't bare to even see them. Also, I prefer to not have emotion be the basis for my arguments against abortion.

Even those who are naturalistic in their beliefs believe in survival of the fittest. Abortion simply does not make sense in that regards either as wouldn't the purpose for a species be to preserve itself? If that is the case then wouldn't the moral right be to continue the lives of humanity? Abortion is the opposite of that and is wrong according to evolutionary beliefs.

Sorry, I don't buy that. Given that one does not know whether or not a fetus will grow to be one of the 'fittest', it is not a good criterion. Furthermore, given that the survival of the human race is not exactly in jeoparody, I don't think this is a huge concern. On the other hand, the life of a mother, and how it could be affected by an unwanted child, is a definite concern.

Biblical and biological reasons for abortion being wrong have been presented so now for legal reasons. Why is it that it is okay for a mother to kill her unborn child but if she is killed, it is considered a double homicide? Or how about if a person hits a pregnant woman that is also considered murder in the eyes of the court system? Why is it a mother and doctor can kill the child without legal consequences? Is there not a contradiction here? Why is it naturalistic beliefs such as this contradict one another?

There is, in fact, no contradiction. Under law, the fetus is considered to be a part of the mother's body, and, therefore, the mother can do with it what she wants. In the case of murder, not only is she killed, but the fetus is destroyed against her will.

Is abortion just a convenience for people? According to the statistics listed in the beginning, apparently so for the vast majority. One of the reasons people have abortions at such a high rate is simply because many do not want to take responsibility for their actions. With every action there is a reaction. This statement works not only in science but every day life. If one thinks themselves not mature enough to raise children then that individual must realize the consequences of sexual promiscuity and not run from those consequences. If one does not like the possible consequences then do not cause them, in other words practice abstinence (which Christians should be practicing anyway...).

"Abstinence only" is really not practical. Besides, contraceptives do not always work. Condoms, for example, can tear, and result in an unintended pregnancy. Obviously, the couple exercised caution. Why should the couple be forced to have an unwanted child, simply because a condom tore? It's not necessarily that they do not realize the consequences. It is often simply that they recognize the consequences, but the preventative measures they take do not work.

Abortion is a huge issue but there is one thing that would significantly decrease the number of abortions, decrease in non-marital sexual activity. Very evident is this logic but sadly many people will not sacrifice their pleasure for what is morally right (both abstinence and being pro-life).

The thing is, many people, including me, do not consider "abstinence and being pro-life" to be "morally right," so that argument is not very convincing. I personally consider morality to be relative, and my set of moral values permit pre-marital sex and allow for a woman's right to an abortion.

I respect your opinions on abortion. However, as evident, I strongly disagree with them.

And anyone who tries to ignore the role that abortion plays on the ability of the poor to advance their situation is not looking at the big picture.

The anti-abortion movement is concerned about social control. Who is getting the most abortions? Poor people and minorities. Who opposes abortion most? Rich which conservatives. There is a large interest in keeping the poor poor, and abortion is one of the biggest tools available for helping people to escape poverty, crime, and misery. Did you ever wonder why crime tends to go down when abortion is legalized, and why crime tends to go way up when abortion is banned? It's because by and large the people making the laws aren't getting the abortions. It's mostly the poor and the disadvantaged who are getting abortions, because they are simply in no way able to provide a good life for their children.

Meanwhile some upper class people with good educations try to fight abortion, which is the same thing that gives the poor a better chance of making a better life for their children. These being the same people who don't give a flying **** about helping kids once they are BORN. They fight ABORTION sure, with the hope that poor and uneducated people have more children (keep in mind that these are often the same people opposing sex education in schools with a disproportionately high teen pregnancy rate). Now once the poor single mother with no job actually HAS her child, and then goes to ask for help, the people pushing for no abortion and no sex-education basically tell her and her family to go screw themselves.

"Hey, why should I get taxed more than poor people? It doesn't matter that I'm making $500,000 a year, the point is that I WORKED for that money. So I shouldn't have to pay any more than the single impoverished mother making $25,000 a year!"

And don't even get me started on freaking religion. Yeah, remember when religion opposed birth control such as freaking condoms? Yeah, that worked out REAL well, didn't it?

[QUOTE="luke1889"]Ugh, this abortion being "murder" nonsence is so infuriating. It's not murder because the unborn child is not legally classed as a human being until it is "wholly expelled" from the mother. So whatever you naysayers may want to be the case deep down inside, you're fighting a losing battle until your government and legislatures amend your laws. So please just shut up about the whole thing.foxhound_fox

i couldn't care les what a woman wants to do with a clump of cells in her body.

i couldn't care les what a woman wants to do with a clump of cells in her body.

Thessassin

But what happens if that baby turns out to become a serial killer?

Why do you use protection since not using that also gives potential to someone being an adult?:roll:Stranger_4

But what happens if that baby turns out to become a serial killer?

lilasianwonder

[QUOTE="indian_playa"]

[QUOTE="clembo1990"]

I am for abortion because of this:

tktomo01

fyi TC, this is a Scanning Electron Microscope picture. in order to take this picture, the "fetus" and the surrounding tissue would have to be removed from the woman, fixed and dehydrated in a chemical solution, stained with heavy metals, embedded in plastic, thinly sliced with a glass blade, and then placed in the pathway of an electron beam. In short, you killed a baby to get this picture, therefore you are an abortionist.

Welcome to dark side brother :twisted:

While I don't promote abortion, I sure as hell don't want anyone forcing me to do something I don't want to. To top it off, I'll probably be judged by people that don't know my circumstances or my reasons.

I am against abotion as soon as the fetus can feel pain or has a mind to think on it's own. I have heard various dates given for this from 4 weeks to 4 months and longer.

This is a sperm, everytime you masturbate you commit genocide.