Why I am against abortion

[QUOTE="McJugga"]Simple as this, I am also against "safe" sex. Be abstinent is not the same as creating and killing life. Of course I do not believe it is so black and white. I know there are some grey areas. If someone were raped it is definitely different, and a harder issue to debate. However, I still believe that they should give birth to the baby and put it up for adoption. You can't justify all of abortion with a few rare cases (rape, incest). If you can't handle a baby, keep your pants on.matthayter700

As far as I'm concerned, the very issue of exceptions for rape and incest should be a reminder that it's not as simple as "keep your pants on"; let's not forget that people are also socially pressured into sex as well to some extent. Me, I'm disinclined to pursue sexual relationships until I have reason to believe one can deal with the consequences. But to people used to being in those relationships, or otherwise used to succumbing to other social pressures, that's easier said than done.

You say being abstinent is not the same as "creating and killing life" but you seem to have missed the entire point I made about I made in that post about there being different meanings to the term "life" just like to the term "work"; so why revert immediately back to the simplistic use of the word "life"?

You talk about adoption, but if a person puts a child up for adoption and the child doesn't get adopted, what's the alternative, being put in an orphanage? Also, there is a certain level of emotional conflict involved in someone having to carry a child for 9 months and give it up after birth. I think it would be better to, during the pregnancy, stop the consciousness before it starts.

I absolutely agree with your first paragraph, but the last on eposes a couple of problems:

1) Adoption is still a possibility.

2) A children's home is not worse than death. In fact, wouldn't the best solution involve investing more in state child care?

3) Emotional conflict isn't something to be avoided, and if a mother decides as a result that she wants to keep the child, then all the better.

4) We really don't know when consciousness begins. Even though I don't remember being 3 years old, I'm pretty sure I was conscious. Consciousness is a crucial tester, but at the moment, all that abortionists can do is draw an arbitrary line in the sand, based on the suspicion that consciousness emerges at an undetermined point of brain development.

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Unless you're an alternate account of Tofu-lion....you wouldn't....because I wasn't talking to you. ;)Lansdowne5

Which is why I said "you" instead of "you guys", and is the reason why I replied to Tofu-lion directly rather than posted it openly on the forum.

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Unless you're an alternate account of Tofu-lion....you wouldn't....because I wasn't talking to you. ;)Lansdowne5

Which is why I said "you" instead of "you guys", and is the reason why I replied to Tofu-lion directly rather than posted it openly on the forum.

If you were so intent on no one but Tofu reading it, you should have sent it to her in a personal message. It's funny that your supporting evidence is the opinion of a 12-year old.

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"][QUOTE="TM_Darkside"]

I love how conservatives are so heavily opposed to abortion, but once that fetus becomes a breathing baby they have no interest in helping it.

TM_Darkside

My thoughts exactly.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"] Or maybe he thought it was an open request and discussion, like most things on forums are...TM_Darkside

Which is why I said "you" instead of "you guys", and is the reason why I replied to Tofu-lion directly rather than posted it openly on the forum.

If you were so intent on no one but Tofu reading it, you should have sent it to her in a personal message. It's funny that your supporting evidence is the opinion of a 12-year old.

[QUOTE="drj077"]There was a time in Britain when medical professionals used to implant IUDs into women without them knowingonce delivery occurred if the woman was unable financially or unfit to care for the child. This was done mostly because the government pays for healthcare and what the government wants...the government gets.

So, women would come into physicians months or years later and complain that they couldn't get pregnant. Doctors would do their exam and sure enough, they'd see the string from the IUD hanging out of cervix. A little tug, mention nothing of it, and behold, a miracle has occurred as now the woman can get pregnant again.

Granted, that would never work in the morally just and self-enlightened USA, but I always thought the above scenario and history was interesting.matthayter700

What exactly makes the USA so much more "morally just" and "self-enlightened"? Sounds like obnoxious holier-than-thou nationalism to me.I'm a Canadian by the way, and I haven't heard of that kind of thing in Canada,and the government pays for healthcare here too.

In any case, to me it sounds absurd to blame that kind of thing on public healthcare; what about private doctors who want the money from selling an abortion and therefore would want to encourage abortion?

When I said the bolded, that was sarcasm. What I stated is the conservative ideal...a viewpoint that I'm totally against.

Also, what are referring to when you say, "private doctors who want the money from selling an abortion and therefore would want to encourage abortion."?

I've never heard of physicians wanting to do abortions to sell the embryonic and fetal material.

Which is why I said "you" instead of "you guys", and is the reason why I replied to Tofu-lion directly rather than posted it openly on the forum.Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="matthayter700"]

[QUOTE="drj077"]There was a time in Britain when medical professionals used to implant IUDs into women without them knowingonce delivery occurred if the woman was unable financially or unfit to care for the child. This was done mostly because the government pays for healthcare and what the government wants...the government gets.

So, women would come into physicians months or years later and complain that they couldn't get pregnant. Doctors would do their exam and sure enough, they'd see the string from the IUD hanging out of cervix. A little tug, mention nothing of it, and behold, a miracle has occurred as now the woman can get pregnant again.

Granted, that would never work in the morally just and self-enlightened USA, but I always thought the above scenario and history was interesting.drj077

What exactly makes the USA so much more "morally just" and "self-enlightened"? Sounds like obnoxious holier-than-thou nationalism to me.I'm a Canadian by the way, and I haven't heard of that kind of thing in Canada,and the government pays for healthcare here too.

In any case, to me it sounds absurd to blame that kind of thing on public healthcare; what about private doctors who want the money from selling an abortion and therefore would want to encourage abortion?

When I said the bolded, that was sarcasm. What I stated is the conservative ideal...a viewpoint that I'm totally against.

Also, what are referring to when you say, "private doctors who want the money from selling an abortion and therefore would want to encourage abortion."?

I've never heard of physicians wanting to do abortions to sell the embryonic and fetal material.

Why I am for abortion.

I say it depends when teh fetius is killed even the bible says its not considered life ontil it has bloodso thats about what 3 weeks

Firstly are you religious?

I remember having these discussions in my R.E. lessons since I go to a Catholic school and some the arguments in defence are pretty weak if you ask me (if the woman/child will die as a result, it's what God intended and suffering is good because it brings you closer to what Jesus felt).

I am atheist (don't bother asking me why I go to a Catholic school) and as far as I am concerned, there is a place in society for abortions, but if people are being selfish (e.g. having an abortion so they could go on a once-in-a-lifetime holiday) then I thinks it's wrong.

I say it depends when teh fetius is killed even the bible says its not considered life ontil it has bloodso thats about what 3 weeks

kemar7856

I don't like babiesTheFlush

Best reply so far, lol.

If a woman wants to do that to her body, thats her business. Plus a cell isnt even alive ( feel emotions and such ). Lastly, if a woman can't have an abortion and is forced into having a child, she may not raise it to the best of her ability which might lead to the child having a not so great life.

If a woman wants to do that to her body, thats her business. chugachea

Well, we could look at it this way, guess who's mother considered having an abortion but was talked out of it? Hitler's.

Saying abortion should be illegal because of the possiblity of what the cell could become is like saying masturbation (at least for guys, anway) or recreational sexshould be illegal. ZOMG! Look at those millions of sperm that will die! Look at those millions of cells that COULD'VE been productive members of society if certain conditions were met! Point is, unless certain conditions are met, a child will just become a leech on society, better nothing then a leech. So, with this philosophy, abortion shouldn't be used as birth control, but if a woman is raped or something similar, let them abort. Also, a fetus is not a human until it has a working brain.

Well, we could look at it this way, guess who's mother considered having an abortion but was talked out of it? Hitler'sGrodus5

If a woman wants to do that to her body, thats her business. Plus a cell isnt even alive ( feel emotions and such ). Lastly, if a woman can't have an abortion and is forced into having a child, she may not raise it to the best of her ability which might lead to the child having a not so great life.

chugachea

"If a woman wants to do that to her body"

Here's the problem: The Fetus is in every way a different body. It has a different genome, a different system entirely. an energy/nutrition dependence relationship is not an identity relationship.

"Plus, a cell isn't even alive"

embryos are most definitely alive. Look up the perameters for something being alive in any biology textbook

"feel emotions and such"

No sane society would say that because a person cannot feel emotions it is therefore undeserving of legal protection of their most basic rights. Furthermore, are we to round up all the people who cannot feel emotions (lobotomized people) and kill them, or let them starve?

"Lastly, if a woman can't have an abortion and is forced into having a child, she may not raise it to the best of her ability which might lead to the child having a not so great life."

and who the hell are you, to decide the conditions for the worth of the life of another person? Since someone may not grow up to have a perfect life, they are therefore undeserving of life?

[QUOTE="kemar7856"]

I say it depends when teh fetius is killed even the bible says its not considered life ontil it has bloodso thats about what 3 weeks

Lansdowne5

Well to be honest I don't care, its not my "future kid" and not my business. Thats the way it should be, it should not be a political deal, end of story.

Well to be honest I don't care, its not my "future kid" and not my business. Thats the way it should be, it should not be a political deal, end of story.

xscrapzx

I am against abortion because of this:

That is a 6-day old baby.

Who will turn into a four month old baby:

Who will turn into:

Who will grow up to be a bride:

I don't believe that anyone has the right to take away the life of this human being who will grow up to have friends, be happy, feel pain, feel love, and to live life.

McJugga

I find this argument about as convincing as Revinh's pictoral argument against evolution :P.

If a woman wants to do that to her body, thats her business. Plus a cell isnt even alive ( feel emotions and such ). Lastly, if a woman can't have an abortion and is forced into having a child, she may not raise it to the best of her ability which might lead to the child having a not so great life.

chugachea

The second an egg is fertilized, it's an organism. As to the last sentence, upbringing isnðt a basis for a bad life. Many people have had horrible parents, but turned into succesful people. Should those people have been killed? Some have argued about the "will turn into" part of foetuses, but a new born baby has the same possiblilities as the foetus they were a few months ago, but no-one would kill an infant. Still, it's like beating a brick wall, I doubt anyone will change their minds here, which is sad because the people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder.

If abortion is necessary it is necessary.

simple.

abortion is pre-mature murder.calvinsora

...which is sad because the people who support abortion are... ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder.

calvinsora

And it's sad that some people here equate abortion with murder. :roll:

[QUOTE="chugachea"]

If a woman wants to do that to her body, thats her business. Plus a cell isnt even alive ( feel emotions and such ). Lastly, if a woman can't have an abortion and is forced into having a child, she may not raise it to the best of her ability which might lead to the child having a not so great life.

calvinsora

Still, it's like beating a brick wall, I doubt anyone will change their minds here, which is sad because the people who support abortion are always using the same, microscopic arguments and ignoring the fact that abortion is pre-mature murder.

Wow, thanks for the compliment :roll:.

When you can't convince them, insult them! Yay...

Someone you don't know aborting a baby doesn't effect you in any way, shape, or form. Why do you have to be all uppity about it?supercubedude64

[QUOTE="supercubedude64"]Someone you don't know aborting a baby doesn't effect you in any way, shape, or form. Why do you have to be all uppity about it?McJugga

We're talking about killing a single fetus here. I don't think that's comparable to mass genocide.

What if that 6 day old baby was a product of a 13 year old girl getting raped by her grandfather?
I'm not joking, there is a place for abortion in society.
It's not always so cut and dry.

One more thing: The people going for abortions have their reasons. If they were forced to raise a child against their will, you can change that picture of a happy bride to a crackhead in a jail uniform.

Conjuration

I agree lad, abortion does have a place in this world. And that is exactly one of the reasons it should be used as you said above. But also, if you don't want the baby, go ahead.

[QUOTE="supercubedude64"]Someone you don't know aborting a baby doesn't effect you in any way, shape, or form. Why do you have to be all uppity about it?McJugga

Im indifferent, I just dont care enough either way.

Nice job with the scare thread.Thats as good as the evangilism threads. I am Pro-Abortion and proud of it. For every bride like you posted,there is an unaborted fetus that grows up to be jeffery damher.mattykovax

[QUOTE="mattykovax"]Nice job with the scare thread.Thats as good as the evangilism threads. I am Pro-Abortion and proud of it. For every bride like you posted,there is an unaborted fetus that grows up to be jeffery damher.chester706

[QUOTE="chester706"][QUOTE="mattykovax"]Nice job with the scare thread.Thats as good as the evangilism threads. I am Pro-Abortion and proud of it. For every bride like you posted,there is an unaborted fetus that grows up to be jeffery damher.blackngold29

I'm against abortion, but not entirely. If the life of the woman is in danger, or if it's a product of incest rape, then I can see it being used, but I am highly against the use of abortion because of "I should have kept my legs closed but was too horney". :|JustPlainLucas

[QUOTE="chester706"][QUOTE="mattykovax"]Nice job with the scare thread.Thats as good as the evangilism threads. I am Pro-Abortion and proud of it. For every bride like you posted,there is an unaborted fetus that grows up to be jeffery damher.blackngold29

I'm just speculating, but maybe it means that they support women having the choice for an abortion, but do not personally support abortions (i.e. they wouldn't have one)?

[QUOTE="blackngold29"][QUOTE="chester706"] I hope you mean Pro-Choice. By saying you are "pro-abortion" says that you want people to be required to have an abortion or you encourage/like abortion. chessmaster1989

I'm just speculating, but maybe it means that they support women having the choice for an abortion, but do not personally support abortions (i.e. they wouldn't have one)?

[QUOTE="blackngold29"][QUOTE="chester706"] I hope you mean Pro-Choice. By saying you are "pro-abortion" says that you want people to be required to have an abortion or you encourage/like abortion. chessmaster1989

I'm just speculating, but maybe it means that they support women having the choice for an abortion, but do not personally support abortions (i.e. they wouldn't have one)?

[QUOTE="calvinsora"]abortion is pre-mature murder.Vandalvideo

We're not in a court of law here. I also clearly stated "pre-mature murder", which is not exactly the same as clear cut murder. In your case of people plants, the main difference here is that the person who keeps his window open isn't of the same species as the plant. If the plant would later form into the same life-form shortly thereafter, I wouldn't remove the plant, as I would see it as destroying a life, happy or not. Though some points are viable, it still doesn't justify removing something that could have lived otherwise.