Digital Foundry: It's Too Late For PS4 NEO

Why are you trying to build such hideously overpriced PC's?

You can do pretty damn well for way less than $1K.

That begs the question of how much more the entire Microsoft corporation is willing to hemorrhage on just the Xbox brand?

The Scorpio is shaping up to be a damn fine, damn powerful, and DAMN EXPENSIVE piece of hardware. Intentionally trying to match the Neo's price point means taking huge losses on each console sold, and people need to remember that Microsoft as a whole has other concerns to pour money into other than the gaming division.

This is made far worse by the fact that the Neo is supposedly launching several months earlier. By the time the Scorpio launches, the Neo could very well drop even further in price, meaning that we could end up seeing a $300-$350 Neo vs a $500-$600 Scorpio.

Having Neo skip E3 was a brilliant move. If they showed Neo and Scorpio was announced at the same conference, Sony woulda been destroyed. People are already trying to destroy it for only having 4TFs of power. This is a prime example of how skipping E3 can be a brilliant move. Yes, its outclassed by Scorpio. But a 4TF console is nothing to sneeze at. And this can still be countered by a October release (if rumor is true). Are people really going to wait for another year for Scorpio when Neo is sitting there? Most people will say no.

Sony has something going for it that will be hard to shake with raw power. Brand trust. As long as it says PlayStation on the console, people will buy it. I really think that Sony has nothing to worry about. They'll just have inferior multiplats and will have to upscale to 4K resolution. In the end, the differences will be minor at worst.

Yeah, makes sense. At a certain point you can't really make much more than some overclocks here and there. They need to manufacture the machine in a finalized state well before they can actually sell it to anyone.

That said, the PS4 didn't sell like it did solely on power alone. Pricing made a big impact early on. The XB1 was quite a bit more expensive when they launched, and as the PS3 showed before, regardless of the hardcore bunch that buy machines at ludicrous prices (said PS3 sold a few million units BEFORE the first price drops) the market as a whole has shown that 299$-399$ is more or less the sweetspot for brand new hardware.

Wonder if MS are really willing to sell it a that price point and lose money on the hardware (of the Scorpio)... the hardware they want in the machine is quite expensive. Then there are other issues like power consumption, heatsink size, general cooling, the mentioned increase in memory...I mean none of these things are impossible, not even today, but they cost money and aren't necessarily friendly on the consumer (power consumption). Interested to see how this turns out in the end.

In any case I'm 100% sure the gaming market will be heading into an exciting year! NX, PS4K/Neo, XB Scorpio all in 2017! Predicting loads of SW meltdowns and debates too hehe :P

And on top of that the Scorpio is a "safe" console for MS. It builds off the Xbone instead being it's own thing requiring you to abandon the games you bought previously. It does nothing gimmicky and really the console we've been asking for. *stares at Nintendo*

Sony is definitely in an odd situation.

You don't know that yet. We've only been told about flops and "uncompressed pixels"....whatever that actually is :P Though, considering it's MS and Kinect is dead, I'd say there is 0.0000000000001% chance of a dumb "required" gimmick.

@Desmonic: MS days of doing gimmicky is probably over. Or at least put on a halt for a little while. The strategy of supporting existing VR instead of creating their own hardware is quite telling. They do have AR but they haven't talked much about it at all.

@charizard1605:

Just about the only option available to Sony is the route Microsoft chose for Xbox One in the face of PS4's higher specification - overclocking the processor. It could inch the Neo a little closer to the target Scorpio spec, but hitting 6TF there is off the table:

The GPU inside Neo is RX480 which at stock clock 1266mzh can reach 5.83TF basically a hair under scorpio,the PS4 has 500+gflops over the xbox one.

A little is saying nothing at 1266mhz it can land Neo at the door of Scorpio.

But look who makes the article Richard xbox Leadbetter,this is the same guy who claim there was a massive difference between 1080p vs 900p when it was PC vs PS4,but when it was XBO vs PS4 some how it was minimal.

But it has to be said that we have seen developers start to extract more from Xbox One and PS4 than we see on equivalent PC parts - something borne out from the E3 demos of Gears of War 4 and Forza Horizon 3, which are - remarkably - running on hardware equivalent to AMD's £80 R7 360 graphics card. So maybe - maybe we will indeed see 4K native titles.

This alone is very telling we all know how the xbox one has fall consistently all generation even behind a 7770 and even the PS4 as well has fall under the 7850.

The argument about Vega doesn't make sense at all.

ZEN's core area size = ~4.1 mm^2 14 nm or 8.2 mm^2 at 28 nm (about similar size to 28 nm Steamroller module)

Jaguar's core area size = 3.1 mm^2 at 28 nm.

DOA

Sorry Sony.

Yeah Neo is doomed, see how bad the weaker Ps2 did against the stronger Xbox

Xbox was a new and unestablished brand that ran its course over 4 years, the PlayStation 2 was already at the forefront of console gaming and in a position of huge success following the PlayStation, it was also commercially available until 2013, that's 13 years.

The bulk of people who bought it were post PS2 relevant from third world countries who couldn't afford anything else.

Context is everything.

I'm watching all this as a pc gamer. Up until the new Xbox was announced, it was looking like the ps4 neo would take a huge lead over Xbone, especially with so many Xbone games being on pc. But then BAM!! We have a more powerful processor! Msoft replies with. Wonder what Sony will do to combat this latest turn.

Take it up the tail pipe.

Still very skeptical of a "4k console" in the next couple years. Even at 6TFLOPs it's going to struggle in demanding titles. By 2017, who knows what the graphical demands will be? 2018? 2019? Forget about it, barring an architectural miracle. PCs struggle enough.

Lol.

Refer to dynamic resolution scaling features. Rendering resolution is dynamically reduced or increase based on workload and target frame rate.

@PraetorianMan: because, if you're going to build a PC to match Scorpio, you will need out to handle gaming at 4k. No PC under $1000 will do that. Don't forget you need hard drives, case, power supply, and all those accessories. Just saying, PC is great but Scorpio will j be cheaper.

If Neo drops within the slim xbox launch window ms is screwed and will continue to lag behind in sales. Scorpio vs Neo was probably never the fight but rather scorpio vs ps5. Sony have a year and a half to say and/or overpromise ANYTHING (true or otherwise) about the ps5 and it would be just as valid as MS's claims about Scorpio. Scorpio specs can also increase in this time frame. The only concrete thing so far is the slim xbox 1 and that's still sadly just the same xbox1 that's been getting its ass kicked by the ps4 without Neo.

Why are you singling out PS fanboys? The same can be said about lems and hermits as well.

When the PS4k was announced lems claimed ownage because Sony milks us, then the Scorpio gets announced and it's suddenly the best thing ever for lemmings.

Not to mention that lems said the same crap about having to upgrade on PC, you sound just as much as a fanboy by leaving all these details out.

What a disaster the NeO have been and it's not even out yet. Lol. In all seriousness, I still rather get a NeO than get my PS4 back and play PS4 games on the NeO instead. Who cares if NeO is not the most powerful console any longer, that sucks but oh well. Depending on the price and actual power, it will still be a decent PlayStation console. I still hope gaming journalists are digging and asking Sony questions about it and getting answers during E3 week. Almost all the stuff they showed I'm interested in will release next year and beyond so I'm guessing the NeO will hopefully be out by then.

LOLpio, a year late, $599 and no exclusives. "But tha powwa!" Sounds like another PS3 situation.

No price is announced. It could be anywhere from $399 to $599.

Due to lower cost structures, consoles has strict chip size e,g.

PS3 RSX = 258 mm^2 (NVIDIA G7X)

PS4 GCN = ~212 mm^2 (AMD Pitcairn)

NEO GCN = ~232 mm^2 (AMD Polaris 10)

Have you notice the pattern?

Consoles doesn't have the luxury for PC's increase GPU performance via chip size growth.

Scorpio also has similar cost structures to Sony's 2xx mm^2 size GPUs, but the difference is clock speed and PCB memory bus width i.e. MS is willing to sustain additional cost for higher clock speed/higher TDP/better cooling and higher cost PCB.

MS is maximizing 2xx mm^2 size GPU chip for 14 nm FinFET generation. Sony should try little harder to maximize their 2xx mm^2 size GPU chip for 14 nm FinFET generation.

The next shift for 2xx mm^2 size GPU is with 10 nm FinFET.

Is Sony willing to pay for ~300 mm^2 Vega 10 (performance increase via chip size growth)? GTX 1070/1080 has 317 mm^2 GPU size chip..

Microsoft isn't going to outsell Sony by being the most powerful. The Playstation brand is just more popular worldwide even if its the weakest console per generation. Don't get me wrong a more powerful Xbox won't hurt, but its not gonna make the Xbox become the leading platform.

No way in hell is the Scorpio still using Jaguar cores. That's just an assumption on their part.

Xbox 360 vs PS3 install base is similar with similar effective performance.

Scorpio is nearly a generation jump from the original XBO.

Scorpio's 6 TFLOPS vs XBO's 1.3 TFLOPS = 4.5X

XBO's 1.3 TFLOPS vs XBox 360's 0.24 TFLOPS =5.5X

@bunchanumbers: They didn't announce most of it. Phil must have panicked and announced it early cos he got scared. With the specs posited, it'll be at least $599.

This. MS had a year's head start and better reputation with the 360 and the PS3 still overtook it in the end.

That's because Sony dropped the ball early on with the $599.99 price point while releasing a full year after the 360.

I saw the headline and I knew which longtime writing x-dude came out of the woodwork...

By Richard Leadbetter

He's just been waiting and waiting all generation for this opportunity, what a riot.

lmao.

Note that XBO can be considered to be X360 since it can run Xbox 360 games.

The XBO's BC for 360 games is still limited, so no you can't consider it to be a 360 just yet.

Sales? MS ownes Sony in equity they can play cat and mouse with Sony about money. Bottom line is MS and whatever they deliver from now on will own Sony's ass. They learned from their mistakes. Xbox slim will be released in 4 months, the Neo? What the hell is it? No launch date or info because they want to be a back seat driver so they can try to one up MS which is a bitch ass move imo. Oh, and the Xbox slim has 4k Bluray so that is that. Have a good one misinformed!

@boaconstricta:

I estimate Scorpio to be around $399 since SoC is not large i.e. it seems to be smaller than PS4's SoC.

PS4's SoC.

Notice SoC size relative to GDDR5 modules.

You haven't got around 14 nm FinFET's bang per buck.

RX-470 is the same Polaris 10 as with $199 RX-480 with around $149 price tag...

I dont know why people are comparing Neo and scorpio. Thats like comparing a 360 slim to a ps4. Neo is just a slight, budget upgrade. Scorpio is a generation leap. It wont matter though cause the PS5 and PC will destroy Scorpio

What? Neo is 2.28 times more powerful than the PlayStation 4, it's not a slight anything, that's a 128% increase in compute power. Scorpio is 3.26 times more powerful, so essentially an entire PlayStation 4 more powerful than Neo, Scorpio is not a generational leap, Sony was simply outdone in the revision game.

There isn't going to be a PlayStation 5, generations are over, it's all incremental upgrades from here on out, both companies have adopted this model.

But there are three companies...

1. $2000 on a high end PC? lol

2. A quarter of a price nets you more than a decent upgrade if you are already a PC gamer. Let us not forget the fact that you are upgrading from another console (XB1 at launch= $500), which adds to the price.

Depends on the price of scorpio. $199 RX 480 is around 6 TFLOPS.

That's something MS is pushing for, doesn't mean Sony or Nintendo will follow suit.

1. Can you provide proof of this?

2. $50-60 for a 7200RPM drive which is faster than XB1's 5400RPM HDD.

3. $50-70 for a case which has much better airflow than XB1.

4. $50-80 for a higher quality PSU than XB1

http://pcpartpicker.com/list/8BHLkT

Add $200-220 for RX 480 (GPU in Scorpio, according to 6 TFLOPs)

Only two of them are relevant in the home console market.

but didn't nintendo and sony start it?

Nintendo did it with the New 3DS, Sony already sent developers PS4.5

Microsoft is the only one who didn't do it and might even skip it with the scorpio all they made was a slim.

MICROSOFT IS FOLLOWING what they already are doing if anything.

I also expected a price like that until i read this..

“Scorpio is for the person who's got a 4K television, who's really focused on 4K gaming. It's going to be a premium price over what we're selling this one for, and both of them will exist in the market at the same time. Scorpio is for your 4K gamer. And that's what we designed it for.”

It was speculated yesterday that while it seems Xbox Scorpio will have a quite significant power advantage over PS4 Neo, that advantage will come at a cost – that literally being the cost, which could be some $100 more than Sony’s new machine.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/spenc...-4k-tv/0168577

$100 over Neo is game over from launch to Scorpio.

Also they way they are marketing 4k,it look as if they on purpose would not make the visuals better at 1080p,so that you get an xbox one S instead if you want 1080p,while 4k is getting popular by the day,the standard is 1080p,so not seeing improvement in 1080p TV is a joke and clearly shows MS is pushing 4k only with Scorpio which still is a niche market.

It could do 4k just not at 60FPS like MS was implying or without compromises either.

But i am sure it can most benchmarks you see running 4k with 30 or lower frames are on Ultra,which consoles are not running,so medium setting at 4k just to brag about 4k is achievable,i see neo as well hitting it.

How is neo a Disaster.? Does MS has Scorpio NOW ready to launch this year.? Hell even early next one.? NO...lol

There is a reason why it will be probably 1 year behind Neo,and will be probably more expensive to,unlike the PS4 that was release 1 week before the xbox one was stronger and cheaper,the XBO was a total fiasco in all ways possible,Scorpio with just power will not change that.

That is funny the PS4 has more games coming this year than the xbox one and has release already more games to,this year the PS4 is on fire and delivering the xbox one not so much,but you are use to play nothing but 1 game every holiday right,so just hope Gears doesn't end flopping to like Halo 5 did..lol

It would be a blast seeing Neo outsold Scorpio even with a power advantage..lol

@Phazevariance said:

Then you have the choice, spend $2000-2500 for a high end computer with gtx 1080 cards and the latest CPU/RAM combo, or $400-500 for a high end console (scorpio).

Meanwhile, PS4Neo will still have it's precious exclusives, but they will be made for an under powered console for whatever that's worth.

WTF... Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

From where in hell you pull that you need even $1,000 have something better that Scorpio let alone 2k or 2.5k...lol

The RX480 stock is 5.83TF just by OC you landed over the Scorpio without problems.,and is a $200 dollar GPU,so buy a $200 CPU and you probably won't hit $750,that is if you don't have already a PC with a fast enough CPU already.

Scorpio will be cheaper but to claim you need 2k is a joke.

Meanwhile Neo will play the best version of its exclusives,while PC get the superior version of Scorpio exclusives..

Is a win win for sony from were i see it,because Scorpio can come with a 1080,on PC you can use 2 no matter what it would always be inferior to PC,so prepare to play those inferior console exclusive games on scorpio..lol

Now that I read Scorpio is a 4k only machine and that really turn me off. I have a very nice 1080p TV and will not upgrade to 4k until it break on me, so I'll just pick up the neo instead.

The scorpio is not 4k only. What he was saying was the scorpio was overkill for 1080p. The scorpio is stronger than the ps4+neo combined. If all you need is 1080p just get the xbox 1 S he said.

Poor cows? PC + PS4 is all you need until Scorpio is released. Xbox One is officially dead, since everything is now coming to PC too from Microsoft. Lems are left deserted for +1 year. Even then it's not guaranteed that there will be good, if any, exclusive titles out on it's release.

Yes, Scorpio does look very promising, but while you are jerking off to it, you forget to see that you got screwed with Xbox One.

Sony will respond to Scorpio, though. How and when? We'll see, but Neo is obviously not going to be enough. Scorpio could be my first MS console ever, depending on whether they can deliver epic exclusives on it. Until then, PC+PS4.

Man the smell of fear and cow manure is in the air after Scorpio.. Good stuff. :P