Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design

I don't get why people say the shooting in Uncharted isn't great. I think the gunplay is very fluid and works well. But I honestly like the cutscenes better than the game itself right now. These scripted over the top events were cool for a while, but it's old and so expected now. And some parts that are gameplay (Wandering through the desert) should just be cutscenes, and other parts that are cutscenes feel like they take away from what could be part of the game. The MP in U3 is better than the single player, and it's nothing special. I like it, but it's nothing I haven't done before.

MrJack3690

I'm all for games having narratives in their enviroments or player authored story, but Uncharted does cinematic presentation right. Before in games, it would be all about playing till the next cut scene, but Uncharted has plenty of action going on without cutscenes, like Nathan's funny lines and backtalks from other charectars etc. When a cutscene comes, it doesn't feel like it's disjointed from the game. In other games, it's pretty much nothing going on until the cutscene. Uncharted I believe does traditional storytelling well

Uncharted has bad gameplay?

Uncharted has bad gameplay?

Animal-Mother

But it's still a valid example, that these reviewers will rate something higher for being a better movie than game, as they didn't think the gameplay was it's strongest feature...

There were plenty of cinematic games before Uncharted.

Some people are just moaning about it now as it does not fit their criteria.

All the best games have sequences one form or another..

Shenmue, Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, Little Big Planet, Command and Conquer, Devil May Cry, COD4, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Assassins Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Dead Space... and many many more.

Don't like it, don't play it.

Theres always Tetris.

There were plenty of cinematic games before Uncharted.

Some people are just moaning about it now as it does not fit their criteria.

All the best games have sequences one form or another..

Shenmue, Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, Little Big Planet, Command and Conquer, Devil May Cry, COD4, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Assassins Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Dead Space... and many many more.

Don't like it, don't play it.

Theres always Tetris.

g0ddyX

He's not talking about cutscenes for Christ's sake. He's talking about scripted "gameplay" sequences that will play out exactly the same no matter how many times you play through it (you know, like every CoD campaign since 4, BF3's campaign, Uncharted, MGS, etc.). Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect (though ME3 looks like it does... turret sequence in the E3 thing), Assassin's Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Deus Ex, KotOR, and Command and Conquer all have nothing like this. Most of the games you mentioned don't fit the criteria DL's talking about.

The number of people misunderstanding this thread is astonishing.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="locopatho"]Uncharted along with Gears and Vanquish is at the very peak of the 3rd person shooter genre :? If you want to talk about "masterpiece" games with bad gameplay, what about the Resident Evil games with their lame stuck camera and tank controls? That actually makes sense, what exactly is the problem with Uncharted's shooting gameplay?TrapJak

I have a hard time re-playing campaigns these day's, still i can play those campaigns that i've played like 30 timesin 2001. Most of the times its cus they all focus on the story en cinematic's this days.

The term masterpiece doesn't have to mean the game is 100% perfect.

That throws a wrench in your argument. Thread is over.

The term masterpiece doesn't have to mean the game is 100% perfect.

That throws a wrench in your argument. Thread is over.

Ultrabeatdown55

But a game with mediocre gameplay cant in any way, shape or form be a masterpiece

I have a hard time re-playing campaigns these day's, still i can play those campaigns that i've played like 30 timesin 2001. Most of the times its cus they all focus on the story en cinematic's this days.

speedfog

Same for me, that is why i rent almost all linear shooters

[QUOTE="Zaibach"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Way to miss the entire point, broski. DarkLink77

you changed your thread title to an even more antagonistic rhetoric.... Cinematic design disease? youre a hoot man, that'll get you the high post counts alright:lol:

You're an idiot. You title the thread "Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design" and use Uncharted 3 as an example, what the hell do you think people are gonna assume? It's pretty damn obvious you're just targeting uncharted 3. I'd like you to point out which game you actually THINK has "good" gameplay amongst the other games that are considered masterpieces. Sure as hell ain't SS if that's what you're getting at, I mean, isn't that the reason why it got a 7.5 in the first place? I didn't see the same reviewer who was so critical of SS' gameplay complain about UC3's gameplay, did you? And when has cinematic degin been ever a bad thing? Games like UC3, MGS4, SC2, FF and a TON of others use it perfectly. Lots of people love the cinematic experience the games have to offer.

But a game with mediocre gameplay cant in any way, shape or form be a masterpiece

loosingENDS

Bioshock? People consider that to be one of the best games of the time but the gameplay really sucks.

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

But a game with mediocre gameplay cant in any way, shape or form be a masterpiece

GD1551

Bioshock? People consider that to be one of the best games of the time but the gameplay really sucks.

Actually the gameplay was its biggest perk, it had extra depth and RPG elements that made it great

So, definatly not Bioshock

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

But a game with mediocre gameplay cant in any way, shape or form be a masterpiece

GD1551

Bioshock? People consider that to be one of the best games of the time but the gameplay really sucks.

Bioshock had bad gameplay!? :o

That's the first time I've heard that.

I agree with the OP. On top of that the IGN review was bizarre. The reviewer gave it a 10/10 for 'lasting appeal' but in the article described the short campaign and adequate but not great multiplayer.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

But a game with mediocre gameplay cant in any way, shape or form be a masterpiece

loosingENDS

Bioshock? People consider that to be one of the best games of the time but the gameplay really sucks.

Actually the gameplay was its biggest perk, it had extra depth and RPG elements that made it great

So, definatly not Bioshock

The gunplay was absolute garbage.

[QUOTE="loosingENDS"]

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

Bioshock? People consider that to be one of the best games of the time but the gameplay really sucks.

GD1551

Actually the gameplay was its biggest perk, it had extra depth and RPG elements that made it great

So, definatly not Bioshock

The gunplay was absolute garbage.

[QUOTE="MrJack3690"]

I don't get why people say the shooting in Uncharted isn't great. I think the gunplay is very fluid and works well. But I honestly like the cutscenes better than the game itself right now. These scripted over the top events were cool for a while, but it's old and so expected now. And some parts that are gameplay (Wandering through the desert) should just be cutscenes, and other parts that are cutscenes feel like they take away from what could be part of the game. The MP in U3 is better than the single player, and it's nothing special. I like it, but it's nothing I haven't done before.

heretrix

I definitely agree on that. Yeah the ship part was pretty good.

[QUOTE="Ultrabeatdown55"]

The term masterpiece doesn't have to mean the game is 100% perfect.

That throws a wrench in your argument. Thread is over.loosingENDS

But a game with mediocre gameplay cant in any way, shape or form be a masterpiece

It was average. Better then Half Life's for example which people always rave about. The tons of mental plasmids are what combined with the average gunplay to make it overall awesome.locopatho

True that, half life 2 is another example. Still bioshock is a FPS and the gunplay was really poorly done, same with HL2 yet both of those are considered master pieces.

I agree with the OP. On top of that the IGN review was bizarre. The reviewer gave it a 10/10 for 'lasting appeal' but in the article described the short campaign and adequate but not great multiplayer.

KC_Hokie

Maybe the lasting appeal meant the money Sony gave him for the review would be able to last throughout the holidays?

You're an idiot. You title the thread "Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design" and use Uncharted 3 as an example, what the hell do you think people are gonna assume? It's pretty damn obvious you're just targeting uncharted 3. I'd like you to point out which game you actually THINK has "good" gameplay amongst the other games that are considered masterpieces. Sure as hell ain't SS if that's what you're getting at, I mean, isn't that the reason why it got a 7.5 in the first place? I didn't see the same reviewer who was so critical of SS' gameplay complain about UC3's gameplay, did you? And when has cinematic degin been ever a bad thing? Games like UC3, MGS4, SC2, FF and a TON of others use it perfectly. Lots of people love the cinematic experience the games have to offer.

wootasifwoot

Read much?

You're an idiot. You title the thread "Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design" and use Uncharted 3 as an example, what the hell do you think people are gonna assume? It's pretty damn obvious you're just targeting uncharted 3. I'd like you to point out which game you actually THINK has "good" gameplay amongst the other games that are considered masterpieces. Sure as hell ain't SS if that's what you're getting at, I mean, isn't that the reason why it got a 7.5 in the first place? I didn't see the same reviewer who was so critical of SS' gameplay complain about UC3's gameplay, did you? And when has cinematic degin been ever a bad thing? Games like UC3, MGS4, SC2, FF and a TON of others use it perfectly. Lots of people love the cinematic experience the games have to offer.

wootasifwoot

You disagree with someone, therefore that person is an idiot? Real mature. Further, you're citing MGS4 as an example of a game which uses cinematics to a GOOD standard? Are you for real? The actual run time is spent more in cutscenes than actually playing the game. THAT is a problem, and his complaint is perfectly valid. Uncharted is a fun game, but over the course of its three iterations its moved more and more towards a mildly interactive movie and reviewers seem to keep gushing over the 'amazing cinematic experience!' as if stripping away all the GAMEPLAY in favor of a digital movie with mild user interaction is better than a traditional game as we used to know it where the played actually shaped the experience themselves through well designed and executed gameplay. Ninja-Hippo

But thats the thing, it HASN'T done this. Uncharted 1 < Uncharted 2 = Uncharted 3 with the cinematics. The game has roughly the same number of minutes in cutscenes and has MORE gameplay content than Uncharted 2.

These are just fanboy delusions of someone who wants the game to fail. The problem with using Uncharted as an example is that the game does everything well, INCLUDING cinematics. Now, whether you agree or not with it being the best is up to you. Maybe you don't like the aiming, or the story, or the characters or whatever, but to argue that it is suffering because it is moving away from gameplay is just straight up false.

Or you could just believe TC, who has a vendetta against a game he has never played

It reflects poorly on the industry when cinematic design is more important than actual gameplay. :(

It reflects poorly on the industry when cinematic design is more important than actual gameplay. :(

Demonjoe93

But if it's what the bro gamers want, the rest of us are pretty much screwed.

The issue with Uncharted 3 at IGN is very similar to the issue of MGS4 on Gamespot; both were reviewed by gushing fans of the series who gave very little attention to either game's worth as an actual GAME. Ninja-Hippo

The fact remains that both UC and mgs series consists of great story telling and awesome gameplay on top of that. I haven't seen any proof from the haters in this thread that leads me to believe UC3 has bad gameplay, including you.

[QUOTE="wootasifwoot"]

You're an idiot. You title the thread "Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design" and use Uncharted 3 as an example, what the hell do you think people are gonna assume? It's pretty damn obvious you're just targeting uncharted 3. I'd like you to point out which game you actually THINK has "good" gameplay amongst the other games that are considered masterpieces. Sure as hell ain't SS if that's what you're getting at, I mean, isn't that the reason why it got a 7.5 in the first place? I didn't see the same reviewer who was so critical of SS' gameplay complain about UC3's gameplay, did you? And when has cinematic degin been ever a bad thing? Games like UC3, MGS4, SC2, FF and a TON of others use it perfectly. Lots of people love the cinematic experience the games have to offer.

Ninja-Hippo

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

You have no problem insulting everyone else's intelligence. Don't ask of me what you can't do yourself. Restating your point isn't difficult, especially when it seems apparent to you that everyone is missing it. But then that wouldn't be nearly as fun, would it?

NEStorianPriest

No you are being vague intentionally. The post was not too long, not too cerebral, not put together too well.

You made several statements, I addressed them. Even your title is spurious.

A game can have okay gameplay and still be a masterpiece, because games are now more than just gameplay. In order for you to understand what everyone else is going on about, you have to step outside your narrow opinion of what makes a game, and then look at IGN's review objectively. But you refuse to see anyone else's opinion and simply claim to be misunderstood, therefore elevating yourself.

All you want people to do is pat you on the back and agree with you, but it's not going to happen, and thinking we don't get you won't make us any less right than you are.

Ugh.

How did this thread turn into a comparison between puzzle-adventures and hack n Slash games? If you think Zelda is about the combat, then you're insane. The whole meat and bones of the series is solving puzzles with the equipment you gain throughout the game.

Pikminmaniac

I can't believe this thread is still going on :shock:

DarkLink doesn't need to play Uncharted 3 in order to prove his point.

Almost 700 posts in a little over a day? People sure love to talk about Uncharted...

[QUOTE="Pikminmaniac"]

How did this thread turn into a comparison between puzzle-adventures and hack n Slash games? If you think Zelda is about the combat, then you're insane. The whole meat and bones of the series is solving puzzles with the equipment you gain throughout the game.

MuayThaiFTW

[QUOTE="Demonjoe93"]

It reflects poorly on the industry when cinematic design is more important than actual gameplay. :(

mmmwksil

But if it's what the bro gamers want, the rest of us are pretty much screwed.

No, we still have Nintendo.

Disease? It seems people are forgetting that the gameplay is controls exclusively. What is so bad about uncharted 3 in terms of controls? What you could argue is that the game kill animatiosn are weak, or something like that. But uncharted 3 as a shooter is as sound as it gets. I never understand why it is bad because it is cinematic. That doesn't define game mechanics at all. That has more to do with game design.

So is the person who reviewed smg2 and any halo game?edo-tensei

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"]So is the person who reviewed smg2 and any halo game?foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="g0ddyX"]

There were plenty of cinematic games before Uncharted.

Some people are just moaning about it now as it does not fit their criteria.

All the best games have sequences one form or another..

Shenmue, Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, Little Big Planet, Command and Conquer, Devil May Cry, COD4, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Assassins Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Dead Space... and many many more.

Don't like it, don't play it.

Theres always Tetris.

Guppy507

He's not talking about cutscenes for Christ's sake. He's talking about scripted "gameplay" sequences that will play out exactly the same no matter how many times you play through it (you know, like every CoD campaign since 4, BF3's campaign, Uncharted, MGS, etc.). Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect (though ME3 looks like it does... turret sequence in the E3 thing), Assassin's Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Deus Ex, KotOR, and Command and Conquer all have nothing like this. Most of the games you mentioned don't fit the criteria DL's talking about.

The number of people misunderstanding this thread is astonishing.

[QUOTE="Guppy507"]

[QUOTE="g0ddyX"]

There were plenty of cinematic games before Uncharted.

Some people are just moaning about it now as it does not fit their criteria.

All the best games have sequences one form or another..

Shenmue, Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Deus Ex, Little Big Planet, Command and Conquer, Devil May Cry, COD4, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Assassins Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Dead Space... and many many more.

Don't like it, don't play it.

Theres always Tetris.

DarkLink77

He's not talking about cutscenes for Christ's sake. He's talking about scripted "gameplay" sequences that will play out exactly the same no matter how many times you play through it (you know, like every CoD campaign since 4, BF3's campaign, Uncharted, MGS, etc.). Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect (though ME3 looks like it does... turret sequence in the E3 thing), Assassin's Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Deus Ex, KotOR, and Command and Conquer all have nothing like this. Most of the games you mentioned don't fit the criteria DL's talking about.

The number of people misunderstanding this thread is astonishing.

Scripted sequences are in every game.

[QUOTE="NEStorianPriest"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] I haven't insulted anyone's intelligence. A lot of people have simply missed the point. I never called anyone out. You resorted to insults. I see no reason to restate what has been said in the OP, and restated by several people in the thread, XVision and mmm, especially. Multiple times. MuayThaiFTW

No you are being vague intentionally. The post was not too long, not too cerebral, not put together too well.

You made several statements, I addressed them. Even your title is spurious.

A game can have okay gameplay and still be a masterpiece, because games are now more than just gameplay. In order for you to understand what everyone else is going on about, you have to step outside your narrow opinion of what makes a game, and then look at IGN's review objectively. But you refuse to see anyone else's opinion and simply claim to be misunderstood, therefore elevating yourself.

All you want people to do is pat you on the back and agree with you, but it's not going to happen, and thinking we don't get you won't make us any less right than you are.

Ugh.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="Guppy507"]

He's not talking about cutscenes for Christ's sake. He's talking about scripted "gameplay" sequences that will play out exactly the same no matter how many times you play through it (you know, like every CoD campaign since 4, BF3's campaign, Uncharted, MGS, etc.). Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect (though ME3 looks like it does... turret sequence in the E3 thing), Assassin's Creed, Crysis, Okami, Fear, Deus Ex, KotOR, and Command and Conquer all have nothing like this. Most of the games you mentioned don't fit the criteria DL's talking about.

The number of people misunderstanding this thread is astonishing.

edo-tensei

It reflects poorly on the industry when cinematic design is more important than actual gameplay. :(

Demonjoe93

Yeah for sure, no wonder the highest rated games this year are all cinematic games. OH WAIT.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"] You disagree with someone, therefore that person is an idiot? Real mature. Further, you're citing MGS4 as an example of a game which uses cinematics to a GOOD standard? Are you for real? The actual run time is spent more in cutscenes than actually playing the game. THAT is a problem, and his complaint is perfectly valid. Uncharted is a fun game, but over the course of its three iterations its moved more and more towards a mildly interactive movie and reviewers seem to keep gushing over the 'amazing cinematic experience!' as if stripping away all the GAMEPLAY in favor of a digital movie with mild user interaction is better than a traditional game as we used to know it where the played actually shaped the experience themselves through well designed and executed gameplay. ohgeez

But thats the thing, it HASN'T done this. Uncharted 1 < Uncharted 2 = Uncharted 3 with the cinematics. The game has roughly the same number of minutes in cutscenes and has MORE gameplay content than Uncharted 2.

These are just fanboy delusions of someone who wants the game to fail. The problem with using Uncharted as an example is that the game does everything well, INCLUDING cinematics. Now, whether you agree or not with it being the best is up to you. Maybe you don't like the aiming, or the story, or the characters or whatever, but to argue that it is suffering because it is moving away from gameplay is just straight up false.

Or you could just believe TC, who has a vendetta against a game he has never played