Games With Bad Gameplay Are Masterpieces Now? The Disease of Cinematic Design

When you use the word "cinematic," for some reason people think you're talking about "cinematics." God knows why.

Really, it's up to you to provide a coherrent argument. So, what are you talking about? You're upset that games are valued for reasons other than gameplay?

hakanakumono

If you couldn't understand his argument, you clearly didn't even bother reading OP.

Valued is fine, but when they suck at the basic fundamentals then they don't deserve a perfect score. It doesn't deserve any kind of free pass just because it seems like some indie movie.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"] So in essence, it comes down to this, as nicely put by another member "So cinematics are a disease to videogames because you read something on the internet about a games aiming mechanic, a game which people loved, and you just don't see it. Therefore, it must be something wrong with the world!!"

hakanakumono

When you use the word "cinematic," for some reason people think you're talking about "cinematics." God knows why.

Really, it's up to you to provide a coherrent argument. So, what are you talking about? You're upset that games are valued for reasons other than gameplay?

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

This thread still going is hilarious. The OP failed in every aspect of delivering a point.

Link that doesn't back up attempted point.

Using Uncharted 3 without actually identifying what is so horrible about the gameplay, how the cinimatic moments detract from the game as a whole, or explaining how one cinematic game makes all games cinematic by default.

ChubbyGuy40

Yet you still don't understand. You really shouldn't try to act high and mighty simply because you failed to see the point and are so obviously butthurt he used your precious Uncharted series as the example.

He did address those issues, but like the blind cow you are, you simply skipped over them while enraged by the use of Uncharted as the example.

The OP is high and mighty to the extreme. I fail to see what this thread is about? No, the thread fails to resonate with anyone who reads the link and the OP, and are also capable of comprehending the text.

The Uncharted games are fun, but I haven't even bought 3 yet. Waiting for a price drop, personally.

Implying that some games going in directions you don't hold dear? That's high and mighty.

Implying I don't get it just because there is nothing to get is high and mighty.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

When you use the word "cinematic," for some reason people think you're talking about "cinematics." God knows why.

Really, it's up to you to provide a coherrent argument. So, what are you talking about? You're upset that games are valued for reasons other than gameplay?

ChubbyGuy40

If you couldn't understand his argument, you clearly didn't even bother reading OP.

Valued is fine, but when they suck at the basic fundamentals then they don't deserve a perfect score. It doesn't deserve any kind of free pass just because it seems like some indie movie.

I read his OP. Using the word "cinematic design" provides implications that he apparently did not intend to make. He has no thesis; his argument is implied. It's natural to mix implications together when the argument isn't clearly stated.

As for Uncharted 3, I haven't played it. But if it's like the 1st and the 2nd one, it should be fine. Maybe it doesn't deserve a perfect score, but IGN isn't GS anyways. Is this just one giant thread to dwell over the fact that different people have different priorities?

The OP is high and mighty to the extreme. I fail to see what this thread is about? No, the thread fails to resonate with anyone who reads the link and the OP, and are also capable of comprehending the text.

The Uncharted games are fun, but I haven't even bought 3 yet. Waiting for a price drop, personally.

Implying that some games going in directions you don't hold dear? That's high and mighty.

Implying I don't get it just because there is nothing to get is high and mighty.

Pug-Nasty

It's been stated many times in simple english. Anyone who actually read the OP and didn't get bloodshot eyes from the rage of the thought that Uncharted can be criticized, did understand it.

It's not about what DL thinks about Uncharted. It never was.

That's not what it was about either.

Implying you don't get it because you don't.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Did you miss the part where I said the thread wasn't about cinematics?DarkLink77

When you use the word "cinematic," for some reason people think you're talking about "cinematics." God knows why.

Really, it's up to you to provide a coherrent argument. So, what are you talking about? You're upset that games are valued for reasons other than gameplay?

I haven't reread your OP so maybe that has something to do with it.

My answer to you would be that it doesn't really matter. Uncharted is media that can be read by your PS3. The difference between a "game" and a "movie" is perception based. There are no rules of the universe as to what a game should and should not be. There are no rules as to what games should and should not be valued for.

So what if people like uncharted for the movies? Get over it. That's their prerogative.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

When you use the word "cinematic," for some reason people think you're talking about "cinematics." God knows why.

Really, it's up to you to provide a coherrent argument. So, what are you talking about? You're upset that games are valued for reasons other than gameplay?

hakanakumono

If you couldn't understand his argument, you clearly didn't even bother reading OP.

Valued is fine, but when they suck at the basic fundamentals then they don't deserve a perfect score. It doesn't deserve any kind of free pass just because it seems like some indie movie.

I read his OP. Using the word "cinematic design" provides implications that he apparently did not intend to make. He has no thesis; his argument is implied. It's natural to mix implications together when the argument isn't clearly stated.

As for Uncharted 3, I haven't played it. But if it's like the 1st and the 2nd one, it should be fine. Maybe it doesn't deserve a perfect score, but IGN isn't GS anyways. Is this just one giant thread to dwell over the fact that different people have different priorities?

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

The OP is high and mighty to the extreme. I fail to see what this thread is about? No, the thread fails to resonate with anyone who reads the link and the OP, and are also capable of comprehending the text.

The Uncharted games are fun, but I haven't even bought 3 yet. Waiting for a price drop, personally.

Implying that some games going in directions you don't hold dear? That's high and mighty.

Implying I don't get it just because there is nothing to get is high and mighty.

ChubbyGuy40

It's been stated many times in simple english. Anyone who actually read the OP and didn't get bloodshot eyes from the rage of the thought that Uncharted can be criticized, did understand it.

It's not about what DL thinks about Uncharted. It never was.

That's not what it was about either.

Implying you don't get it because you don't.

Yes it is, considering he's using Uncharted 3 as a prime example of what he's talking about in the OP.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"] So in essence, it comes down to this, as nicely put by another member "So cinematics are a disease to videogames because you read something on the internet about a games aiming mechanic, a game which people loved, and you just don't see it. Therefore, it must be something wrong with the world!!"

MuayThaiFTW

[QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Did you miss the part where I said the thread wasn't about cinematics?DarkLink77

So you made this thread without the hopes of anyone agreeing with you?

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

When you use the word "cinematic," for some reason people think you're talking about "cinematics." God knows why.

Really, it's up to you to provide a coherrent argument. So, what are you talking about? You're upset that games are valued for reasons other than gameplay?

hakanakumono

I haven't reread your OP so maybe that has something to do with it.

My answer to you would be that it doesn't really matter. Uncharted is media that can be read by your PS3. The difference between a "game" and a "movie" is perception based. There are no rules of the universe as to what a game should and should not be. There are no rules as to what games should and should not be valued for.

So what if people like uncharted for the movies? Get over it. That's their prerogative.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"] The essence of it meaning that you are just reading about it on the internet and accepting what ever you read as some universal truth and then any differing opinion to that universal truth in your head is meet with a "your not getting it" or an "alternate account " attack You act like a little teenage girl looking for approval for people to agree with you and when they do "they get it" You are not fooling anyone and if you are not trolling then go seek helphakanakumono

So you made this thread without the hopes of anyone agreeing with you?

I read his OP. Using the word "cinematic design" provides implications that he apparently did not intend to make. He has no thesis; his argument is implied. It's natural to mix implications together when the argument isn't clearly stated.

As for Uncharted 3, I haven't played it. But if it's like the 1st and the 2nd one, it should be fine. Maybe it doesn't deserve a perfect score, but IGN isn't GS anyways. Is this just one giant thread to dwell over the fact that different people have different priorities?

hakanakumono

It's not his fault people took it the wrong way. It's their fault for responding while they had no understanding of the thread. He stated it clearly in the first few sentences what was wrong with reviews today.

I've played it, I enjoy it a lot more than 2. It's not about the website either. It's a video game. It's not a movie. If they wanted to make an interactive movie, YouTube provides the perfect interface for it.

I haven't reread your OP so maybe that has something to do with it.

My answer to you would be that it doesn't really matter. Uncharted is media that can be read by your PS3. The difference between a "game" and a "movie" is perception based. There are no rules of the universe as to what a game should and should not be. There are no rules as to what games should and should not be valued for.

So what if people like uncharted for the movies? Get over it. That's their prerogative.

hakanakumono

You didn't need to read the revised OP anyway.

One is a video game, and one is a movie. That is not perception based. There are no rules, but we established them. You can't ignore them simply because you want to. Gameplay is what makes video games...video games. If you have broken controls you are not worthy of a perfect score.

Good, but this is a video game and not a movie. Good visuals and presentation are essential, but if you fail at gameplay and controls then those visuals and presentations are worth nothing.

Yes it is, considering he's using Uncharted 3 as a prime example of what he's talking about in the OP.

hakanakumono

It's an example. It's not solely about Uncharted or his opinions about it.

So you made this thread without the hopes of anyone agreeing with you?

hakanakumono

There's no need for anyone to agree with him when he's correct in pointing out the flaw.

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

The OP is high and mighty to the extreme. I fail to see what this thread is about? No, the thread fails to resonate with anyone who reads the link and the OP, and are also capable of comprehending the text.

The Uncharted games are fun, but I haven't even bought 3 yet. Waiting for a price drop, personally.

Implying that some games going in directions you don't hold dear? That's high and mighty.

Implying I don't get it just because there is nothing to get is high and mighty.

ChubbyGuy40

It's been stated many times in simple english. Anyone who actually read the OP and didn't get bloodshot eyes from the rage of the thought that Uncharted can be criticized, did understand it.

It's not about what DL thinks about Uncharted. It never was.

That's not what it was about either.

Implying you don't get it because you don't.

What point does he make? Uncharted 3 is a game with bad gameplay, but is called a masterpiece by IGN's editors, thus showing us all how backwards the thinking is in the review industry, and how that backwards thinking affects the video game industry as a whole?

He links to an interview with IGN's editors to show us what they said, but only one out of five of them said they thought the gameplay was bad, while the others were fine with it. So, his point of a game being called a masterpiece in spite of its bad gameplay is moot, since his own link doesn't say what he implies it does.

Uncharted is one series out of many games available, and all games aren't being made in the same cinematic style, but he thinks it's some kind of widespread "problem." How is something such a problem when there are so many non-cinematic gaming options available?

No, his problem is really that a cinematic game that he hates is being called a masterpiece, while the games he does like are being hit by reviewers, and gamers, for their dated mechanics.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] No other than. More than, to the point that the gameplay is an afterthought, begrudgingly given to the player. Which I said in the OP, the revised OP, and several times in the thread.DarkLink77

I haven't reread your OP so maybe that has something to do with it.

My answer to you would be that it doesn't really matter. Uncharted is media that can be read by your PS3. The difference between a "game" and a "movie" is perception based. There are no rules of the universe as to what a game should and should not be. There are no rules as to what games should and should not be valued for.

So what if people like uncharted for the movies? Get over it. That's their prerogative.

"That's just your opinion" is not my argument.

There's a difference between preferences and opinions. People frequently mix the two together, who knows why. People will tell you that "opinions can't be wrong." That's their opinion.

They're wrong.

Preferences, however, are not wrong. You cannot tell people what to like and dislike. Moreover, you cannot tell people what they can value in games and what shouldn't be valued. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take a step back. Games are just there to entertain us. You don't get to say "you're being entertained for the wrong reasons!"

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

The OP is high and mighty to the extreme. I fail to see what this thread is about? No, the thread fails to resonate with anyone who reads the link and the OP, and are also capable of comprehending the text.

The Uncharted games are fun, but I haven't even bought 3 yet. Waiting for a price drop, personally.

Implying that some games going in directions you don't hold dear? That's high and mighty.

Implying I don't get it just because there is nothing to get is high and mighty.

Pug-Nasty

It's been stated many times in simple english. Anyone who actually read the OP and didn't get bloodshot eyes from the rage of the thought that Uncharted can be criticized, did understand it.

It's not about what DL thinks about Uncharted. It never was.

That's not what it was about either.

Implying you don't get it because you don't.

What point does he make? Uncharted 3 is a game with bad gameplay, but is called a masterpiece by IGN's editors, thus showing us all how backwards the thinking is in the review industry, and how that backwards thinking affects the video game industry as a whole?

He links to an interview with IGN's editors to show us what they said, but only one out of five of them said they thought the gameplay was bad, while the others were fine with it. So, his point of a game being called a masterpiece in spite of its bad gameplay is moot, since his own link doesn't say what he implies it does.

Uncharted is one series out of many games available, and all games aren't being made in the same cinematic style, but he thinks it's some kind of widespread "problem." How is something such a problem when there are so many non-cinematic gaming options available?

No, his problem is really that a cinematic game that he hates is being called a masterpiece, while the games he does like are being hit by reviewers, and gamers, for their dated mechanics.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"] The essence of it meaning that you are just reading about it on the internet and accepting what ever you read as some universal truth and then any differing opinion to that universal truth in your head is meet with a "your not getting it" or an "alternate account " attack You act like a little teenage girl looking for approval for people to agree with you and when they do "they get it" You are not fooling anyone and if you are not trolling then go seek helpMuayThaiFTW

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

I haven't reread your OP so maybe that has something to do with it.

My answer to you would be that it doesn't really matter. Uncharted is media that can be read by your PS3. The difference between a "game" and a "movie" is perception based. There are no rules of the universe as to what a game should and should not be. There are no rules as to what games should and should not be valued for.

So what if people like uncharted for the movies? Get over it. That's their prerogative.

hakanakumono

"That's just your opinion" is not my argument.

There's a difference between preferences and opinions. People frequently mix the two together, who knows why. People will tell you that "opinions can't be wrong." That's their opinion.

They're wrong.

Preferences, however, are not wrong. You cannot tell people what to like and dislike. Moreover, you cannot tell people what they can value in games and what shouldn't be valued. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take a step back. Games are just there to entertain us. You don't get to say "you're being entertained for the wrong reasons!"

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

It's been stated many times in simple english. Anyone who actually read the OP and didn't get bloodshot eyes from the rage of the thought that Uncharted can be criticized, did understand it.

It's not about what DL thinks about Uncharted. It never was.

That's not what it was about either.

Implying you don't get it because you don't.

DarkLink77

What point does he make? Uncharted 3 is a game with bad gameplay, but is called a masterpiece by IGN's editors, thus showing us all how backwards the thinking is in the review industry, and how that backwards thinking affects the video game industry as a whole?

He links to an interview with IGN's editors to show us what they said, but only one out of five of them said they thought the gameplay was bad, while the others were fine with it. So, his point of a game being called a masterpiece in spite of its bad gameplay is moot, since his own link doesn't say what he implies it does.

Uncharted is one series out of many games available, and all games aren't being made in the same cinematic style, but he thinks it's some kind of widespread "problem." How is something such a problem when there are so many non-cinematic gaming options available?

No, his problem is really that a cinematic game that he hates is being called a masterpiece, while the games he does like are being hit by reviewers, and gamers, for their dated mechanics.

There you go again making that big leap from "fine with it, can be improved" to "bad" all over again. Every game's gameplay can be improved. A game that has perfect gameplay would mean the developers never had time/money constraints and could hone the gameplay until they perfected it.

The gameplay not being their favorite aspect in a game that has so many great qualities isn't a problem, as those same reviewers you keep quoting agree with when they call the game a masterpiece.

I feel that you having a DNF icon/sig combo and asking me that last bit means you are just joking with this whole thread.

[QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Um, what? Accepting whatever I read as a universal truth? Are you high? If I did that, this thread wouldn't exist. I'd be mindless y praising every highly rated game to the heavens. This is my own conclusion, thank you. And dude, I am not looking for your, or anyone else's approval. Especially not on the internet. :lol:

DarkLink77

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Wow, the site cut like half on my post off. It looks like ass. Thanks, GlitchSpot. And we're back to the, "Well, that's just your opinion, man," bit. Why bother posting at all if that's all you're going to fall back on?DarkLink77

"That's just your opinion" is not my argument.

There's a difference between preferences and opinions. People frequently mix the two together, who knows why. People will tell you that "opinions can't be wrong." That's their opinion.

They're wrong.

Preferences, however, are not wrong. You cannot tell people what to like and dislike. Moreover, you cannot tell people what they can value in games and what shouldn't be valued. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take a step back. Games are just there to entertain us. You don't get to say "you're being entertained for the wrong reasons!"

Yes you are.

many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result thegameplay, which is the most important part of agame, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

It doesn't matter if games are made up of scripted, cinematic sequences. It doesn't matter how much the player influences the game. It doesn't matter if the segments play the same every time. It doesn't even matter if the gameplay is an afterthought.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

What point does he make? Uncharted 3 is a game with bad gameplay, but is called a masterpiece by IGN's editors, thus showing us all how backwards the thinking is in the review industry, and how that backwards thinking affects the video game industry as a whole?

He links to an interview with IGN's editors to show us what they said, but only one out of five of them said they thought the gameplay was bad, while the others were fine with it. So, his point of a game being called a masterpiece in spite of its bad gameplay is moot, since his own link doesn't say what he implies it does.

Uncharted is one series out of many games available, and all games aren't being made in the same cinematic style, but he thinks it's some kind of widespread "problem." How is something such a problem when there are so many non-cinematic gaming options available?

No, his problem is really that a cinematic game that he hates is being called a masterpiece, while the games he does like are being hit by reviewers, and gamers, for their dated mechanics.

Pug-Nasty

There you go again making that big leap from "fine with it, can be improved" to "bad" all over again. Every game's gameplay can be improved. A game that has perfect gameplay would mean the developers never had time/money constraints and could hone the gameplay until they perfected it.

The gameplay not being their favorite aspect in a game that has so many great qualities isn't a problem, as those same reviewers you keep quoting agree with when they call the game a masterpiece.

I feel that you having a DNF icon/sig combo and asking me that last bit means you are just joking with this whole thread.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

"That's just your opinion" is not my argument.

There's a difference between preferences and opinions. People frequently mix the two together, who knows why. People will tell you that "opinions can't be wrong." That's their opinion.

They're wrong.

Preferences, however, are not wrong. You cannot tell people what to like and dislike. Moreover, you cannot tell people what they can value in games and what shouldn't be valued. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Take a step back. Games are just there to entertain us. You don't get to say "you're being entertained for the wrong reasons!"

hakanakumono

Yes you are.

many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result thegameplay, which is the most important part of agame, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

It doesn't matter if games are made up of scripted, cinematic sequences. It doesn't matter how much the player influences the game. It doesn't matter if the segments play the same every time. It doesn't even matter if the gameplay is an afterthought.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"] That makes no sense. Thats exactly what you are doing. You said you dont need to play the game becauae you are taking what other people had to say about it over the internet instead. And your basing everything off of that. And its funny because when someone agrees with you you come running to tell them how much they get it. Seriously your a head case bro. Either that or you are just trolling. MuayThaiFTW

BY POPULAR DEMAND, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANNOT READ, FOLLOW SEMI-COMPLEX THOUGHTS, OR SOMEHOW ORTHERWISE MISSED THE POINT IN THE 700+ POSTS OF THIS THREAD:

This is not about cutscenes, and this is sure as s*** not saying that games should not attempt to tell stories. What it is saying (pay attention now), is that many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result the gameplay, which is the most important part of a game, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

And yet, this game, which has serious gameplay issues, is heralded as a masterpiece simply because it has good production values. This is a serious issue within the industry.

Are we all on the same page now? Yes? Good.

DarkLink77

First off, YOU didn't play the game, how the f*** do you know whats wrong with it? how about pointing out a game you have actually played ? because Im gonna rip your post apart and you won't be able to reply.

1- I don't know exactly what you mean by that but if you think throwing the player in what supposed to be a cut-scene in the past and make them take control of the character they are watching is bad then you are wrong, what ND is doing in Uncharted is one of the best forms of interactivity, this is one of the solutions of how to avoid long cut-scenes and is what lots of gamers wished for years, to be active in that awesome looking action packed cut-scene in the past.

2- you are totally and very wrong here again, gameplay segments are not the same in Uncharted 3 and shooting is not the ONLY part of the game ( which is great btw ), add to that the fact that you don't know how many cinematic scripted events are there in Uncharted 3 to begin with because you didn't play the game, plus Uncharted series thrives in cinematic experience because it is an action adventure game, it depends on telling you story through levels and immerse the player by providing amazing set-pieces to showcase the player the magnitude of adventure they are trying to suck them in , lastly, Im confused are we considering whole levels as scripted events now or what? if so then be it, call it a scripted event, a new level, going from A to B or whatever, that is the nature of linear game design overall and it is not a weakness to have them, it is what the game designer trying to show and tell the player through completing levels, also you need to be more specific about what you consider a cinematic scripted event because thanks to ND, they have completely changed what is defined by industry standards as levels.

3- good game design and excellent gameplay is what ND doing, again go and play U3 and see how the chateau and the shipyard chapters would blow your mind, the level design there is extraordinary, same goes for the sinking ship level, Im not gonna spoil the game for ya because there are even more great level design , I know you are talking SP but I have to add MP in the argument of level design, ND has multiplayer maps on lock for superb game design.

Last but not least, when people compare the melee combat from uncharted 3 to that of Batman Arkham City and when the shooting mechanics are arguably better than Gears of War you know Naughty Dog are not kidding and they are surely not putting gameplay as you call it, an afterthought.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] That's not what I'm saying at all. :|DarkLink77

Yes you are.

many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result thegameplay, which is the most important part of agame, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

It doesn't matter if games are made up of scripted, cinematic sequences. It doesn't matter how much the player influences the game. It doesn't matter if the segments play the same every time. It doesn't even matter if the gameplay is an afterthought.

Let me clarify. If a game has great gameplay, then great. Yes, it matters. But it doesn't matter if a game is designed like Uncharted 3. It doesn't matter if it's praised for it either.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

BY POPULAR DEMAND, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANNOT READ, FOLLOW SEMI-COMPLEX THOUGHTS, OR SOMEHOW ORTHERWISE MISSED THE POINT IN THE 700+ POSTS OF THIS THREAD:

This is not about cutscenes, and this is sure as s*** not saying that games should not attempt to tell stories. What it is saying (pay attention now), is that many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result the gameplay, which is the most important part of a game, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

And yet, this game, which has serious gameplay issues, is heralded as a masterpiece simply because it has good production values. This is a serious issue within the industry.

Are we all on the same page now? Yes? Good.

HAZE-Unit

First off, YOU didn't play the game, how the f*** do you know whats wrong with it? how about pointing out a game you have actually played ? because Im gonna rip your post apart and you won't be able to reply.

1- I don't know exactly what you mean by that but if you think throwing the player in what supposed to be a cut-scene in the past and make them take control of the character they are watching is bad then you are wrong, what ND is doing in Uncharted is one of the best forms of interactivity, this is one of the solutions of how to avoid long cut-scenes and is what lots of gamers wished for years, to be active in that awesome looking action packed cut-scene in the past.

2- you are totally and very wrong here again, gameplay segments are not the same in Uncharted 3 and shooting is not the ONLY part of the game ( which is great btw ), add to that the fact that you don't know how many cinematic scripted events are there in Uncharted 3 to begin with because you didn't play the game, plus Uncharted series thrives in cinematic experience because it is an action adventure game, it depends on telling you story through levels and immerse the player by providing amazing set-pieces to showcase the player the magnitude of adventure they are trying to suck them in , lastly, Im confused are we considering whole levels as scripted events now or what? if so then be it, call it a scripted event, a new level, going from A to B or whatever, that is the nature of linear game design overall and it is not a weakness to have them, it is what the game designer trying to show and tell the player through completing levels, also you need to be more specific about what you consider a cinematic scripted event because thanks to ND, they have completely changed what is defined by industry standards as levels.

3- good game design and excellent gameplay is what ND doing, again go and play U3 and see how the chateau and the shipyard chapters would blow your mind, the level design there is extraordinary, same goes for the sinking ship level, Im not gonna spoil the game for ya because there are even more great level design , I know you are talking SP but I have to add MP in the argument of level design, ND has multiplayer maps on lock for superb game design.

Last but not least, when people compare the melee combat from uncharted 3 to that of Batman Arkham City and when the shooting mechanics are arguably better than Gears of War you know Naughty Dog are not kidding and they are surely not putting gameplay as you call it, an afterthought.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Yes you are.

many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result thegameplay, which is the most important part of agame, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

It doesn't matter if games are made up of scripted, cinematic sequences. It doesn't matter how much the player influences the game. It doesn't matter if the segments play the same every time. It doesn't even matter if the gameplay is an afterthought.

hakanakumono

Glad we cleared that up.

What point does he make? Uncharted 3 is a game with bad gameplay, but is called a masterpiece by IGN's editors, thus showing us all how backwards the thinking is in the review industry, and how that backwards thinking affects the video game industry as a whole?

He links to an interview with IGN's editors to show us what they said, but only one out of five of them said they thought the gameplay was bad, while the others were fine with it. So, his point of a game being called a masterpiece in spite of its bad gameplay is moot, since his own link doesn't say what he implies it does.

Uncharted is one series out of many games available, and all games aren't being made in the same cinematic style, but he thinks it's some kind of widespread "problem." How is something such a problem when there are so many non-cinematic gaming options available?

No, his problem is really that a cinematic game that he hates is being called a masterpiece, while the games he does like are being hit by reviewers, and gamers, for their dated mechanics.

Pug-Nasty

He's pointing out the flaws of people giving games high scores for simply having high cinematic value but failing in the most basic and crucial area. Uncharted 3 and IGN are simply the only website he chose to point out, probably because they're the only ones with an afterthought so far.

You should read the entire article. I already posted all the snippets of how many wrongs they pointed out.

He's not saying cinematic style is THE problem. This has to do with the journalism/reviews.

And those games would be?...

I feel that you having a DNF icon/sig combo and asking me that last bit means you are just joking with this whole thread.

Pug-Nasty

He never played DNF, so you can stop trying to discredit him because you don't understand what this is about.

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

BY POPULAR DEMAND, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANNOT READ, FOLLOW SEMI-COMPLEX THOUGHTS, OR SOMEHOW ORTHERWISE MISSED THE POINT IN THE 700+ POSTS OF THIS THREAD:

This is not about cutscenes, and this is sure as s*** not saying that games should not attempt to tell stories. What it is saying (pay attention now), is that many big-budget, mainstream games have become focused on scripted, cinematic sequences to the extent that they let the player influence the game as little as possible. The player becomes a necessary inconvenience, raildroaded from one scripted sequence to another, in gameplay segements that will play the same pretty much every time. This is not good game design. As a result the gameplay, which is the most important part of a game, becomes an afterthought, and is, in the case of Uncharted 3, the weakest link.

And yet, this game, which has serious gameplay issues, is heralded as a masterpiece simply because it has good production values. This is a serious issue within the industry.

Are we all on the same page now? Yes? Good.

DarkLink77

First off, YOU didn't play the game, how the f*** do you know whats wrong with it? how about pointing out a game you have actually played ? because Im gonna rip your post apart and you won't be able to reply.

1- I don't know exactly what you mean by that but if you think throwing the player in what supposed to be a cut-scene in the past and make them take control of the character they are watching is bad then you are wrong, what ND is doing in Uncharted is one of the best forms of interactivity, this is one of the solutions of how to avoid long cut-scenes and is what lots of gamers wished for years, to be active in that awesome looking action packed cut-scene in the past.

2- you are totally and very wrong here again, gameplay segments are not the same in Uncharted 3 and shooting is not the ONLY part of the game ( which is great btw ), add to that the fact that you don't know how many cinematic scripted events are there in Uncharted 3 to begin with because you didn't play the game, plus Uncharted series thrives in cinematic experience because it is an action adventure game, it depends on telling you story through levels and immerse the player by providing amazing set-pieces to showcase the player the magnitude of adventure they are trying to suck them in , lastly, Im confused are we considering whole levels as scripted events now or what? if so then be it, call it a scripted event, a new level, going from A to B or whatever, that is the nature of linear game design overall and it is not a weakness to have them, it is what the game designer trying to show and tell the player through completing levels, also you need to be more specific about what you consider a cinematic scripted event because thanks to ND, they have completely changed what is defined by industry standards as levels.

3- good game design and excellent gameplay is what ND doing, again go and play U3 and see how the chateau and the shipyard chapters would blow your mind, the level design there is extraordinary, same goes for the sinking ship level, Im not gonna spoil the game for ya because there are even more great level design , I know you are talking SP but I have to add MP in the argument of level design, ND has multiplayer maps on lock for superb game design.

Last but not least, when people compare the melee combat from uncharted 3 to that of Batman Arkham City and when the shooting mechanics are arguably better than Gears of War you know Naughty Dog are not kidding and they are surely not putting gameplay as you call it, an afterthought.

you didn't read my post and you didn't reply, congrats for another fail.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] It doesn't matter if video games have good gameplay. Okay. :roll:DarkLink77

Glad we cleared that up.

I clarified my post, because I realized I was making implications I did not intend to make.

There are several problems here.

1. You're upset that people value Uncharted when you don't.

2. You have ideas of what games "should" and "shouldn't" be.

again go and play U3 and see how the chateau would blow your mind, the level design there is extraordinary

HAZE-Unit

HORSE-S***. Chateau is the only part I absolutely hate so far. I never want to play that level again.

[QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"]

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Yep, I'm a psycho, man. They only let me out once a day, and I spend all of my time on System Wars. :lol: Do you even read what you post? And no, not just people on the internet. People I know, gameplay footage, etc.DarkLink77

I clarified my post, because I realized I was making implications I did not intend to make.

There are several problems here.

1. You're upset that people value Uncharted when you don't.

2. You have ideas of what games "should" and "shouldn't" be.

hakanakumono

1. He's upset they can't properly translate their thoughts to a review score.

2. Everybody does, but that was never the point of this topic.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

First off, YOU didn't play the game, how the f*** do you know whats wrong with it? how about pointing out a game you have actually played ? because Im gonna rip your post apart and you won't be able to reply.

1- I don't know exactly what you mean by that but if you think throwing the player in what supposed to be a cut-scene in the past and make them take control of the character they are watching is bad then you are wrong, what ND is doing in Uncharted is one of the best forms of interactivity, this is one of the solutions of how to avoid long cut-scenes and is what lots of gamers wished for years, to be active in that awesome looking action packed cut-scene in the past.

2- you are totally and very wrong here again, gameplay segments are not the same in Uncharted 3 and shooting is not the ONLY part of the game ( which is great btw ), add to that the fact that you don't know how many cinematic scripted events are there in Uncharted 3 to begin with because you didn't play the game, plus Uncharted series thrives in cinematic experience because it is an action adventure game, it depends on telling you story through levels and immerse the player by providing amazing set-pieces to showcase the player the magnitude of adventure they are trying to suck them in , lastly, Im confused are we considering whole levels as scripted events now or what? if so then be it, call it a scripted event, a new level, going from A to B or whatever, that is the nature of linear game design overall and it is not a weakness to have them, it is what the game designer trying to show and tell the player through completing levels, also you need to be more specific about what you consider a cinematic scripted event because thanks to ND, they have completely changed what is defined by industry standards as levels.

3- good game design and excellent gameplay is what ND doing, again go and play U3 and see how the chateau and the shipyard chapters would blow your mind, the level design there is extraordinary, same goes for the sinking ship level, Im not gonna spoil the game for ya because there are even more great level design , I know you are talking SP but I have to add MP in the argument of level design, ND has multiplayer maps on lock for superb game design.

Last but not least, when people compare the melee combat from uncharted 3 to that of Batman Arkham City and when the shooting mechanics are arguably better than Gears of War you know Naughty Dog are not kidding and they are surely not putting gameplay as you call it, an afterthought.

HAZE-Unit

you didn't read my post and you didn't reply, congrats for another fail.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

First off, YOU didn't play the game, how the f*** do you know whats wrong with it? how about pointing out a game you have actually played ? because Im gonna rip your post apart and you won't be able to reply.

1- I don't know exactly what you mean by that but if you think throwing the player in what supposed to be a cut-scene in the past and make them take control of the character they are watching is bad then you are wrong, what ND is doing in Uncharted is one of the best forms of interactivity, this is one of the solutions of how to avoid long cut-scenes and is what lots of gamers wished for years, to be active in that awesome looking action packed cut-scene in the past.

2- you are totally and very wrong here again, gameplay segments are not the same in Uncharted 3 and shooting is not the ONLY part of the game ( which is great btw ), add to that the fact that you don't know how many cinematic scripted events are there in Uncharted 3 to begin with because you didn't play the game, plus Uncharted series thrives in cinematic experience because it is an action adventure game, it depends on telling you story through levels and immerse the player by providing amazing set-pieces to showcase the player the magnitude of adventure they are trying to suck them in , lastly, Im confused are we considering whole levels as scripted events now or what? if so then be it, call it a scripted event, a new level, going from A to B or whatever, that is the nature of linear game design overall and it is not a weakness to have them, it is what the game designer trying to show and tell the player through completing levels, also you need to be more specific about what you consider a cinematic scripted event because thanks to ND, they have completely changed what is defined by industry standards as levels.

3- good game design and excellent gameplay is what ND doing, again go and play U3 and see how the chateau and the shipyard chapters would blow your mind, the level design there is extraordinary, same goes for the sinking ship level, Im not gonna spoil the game for ya because there are even more great level design , I know you are talking SP but I have to add MP in the argument of level design, ND has multiplayer maps on lock for superb game design.

Last but not least, when people compare the melee combat from uncharted 3 to that of Batman Arkham City and when the shooting mechanics are arguably better than Gears of War you know Naughty Dog are not kidding and they are surely not putting gameplay as you call it, an afterthought.

HAZE-Unit

you didn't read my post and you didn't reply, congrats for another fail.

Oh, look I'm replying, though reading long-ass run on sentences is a pain. Punctuation is your friend. ;) So, limiting you to a slew of context sensitive actions that will be the same every time so that someone at Naughty Dog can practice for being a film director when they grow is good design? Yeah, no, sorry. Those segments of gameplay will play the same each and every time you go through them, so I'm absolutely right. Moving on. No, making sequences with no room to let the player do anything except play it the way the designers intended for you to play it is not good game design. It's actually really bad game design. That's called making an interactive movie, and that's bad.DarkLink77

Yes, this clarifies it.

I'm not going to give you the attention you crave anymore. Go back under your bridgeMuayThaiFTW

Says the level 5 alt account that can't comprehend a real SW thread.

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="MuayThaiFTW"]Look at your number of posts. That could be true lol and lol at people you know. You mean your internet friends like chubbyguy?

MuayThaiFTW

See you on your next new account.