Good-Bye Nintendo (Part II) - Lying About Innovation

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

[QUOTE="books83"]How about the complaints from the hardcore about not having voice chat and 1:1 controls? Oh wait they actully adressed those complaints.Vyyral

Well, obviously a conference aimed at investers and retailers is no good unless they have pre-rendered fan-service for games that we've known about for a year. :roll:

http://gonintendo.com/?p=37938

In a pre-e3 interview, Reggie promised a great lineup of games for the hardcore gamer to be revealed at e3, which will give Nintendo a strong 2008 second half. So excuse me if I had the wrong idea.

I can't deny that the press conference was a dissipointment. It really told me just how much E3 has changed. Still, while I still have games that I have yet to play for Wii, I'm holding on to it. Hopefully we'll see bigger releases at a different event, such as E for All.

Well, I'm not really surprised after reading both this and last year's thread. When the wii was announced in 05, I knew this would happen. I knew Nintendo would cater to the casual audience, and I knew a lot of core gamers who sat out waiting all night on wii's launch day were going to be eventually disappointed. Honestly, I don't think Nintendo has changed completely in terms of making their own first party games from the GCN era. We all know there will eventually be a new Zelda, Mario etc., but what's in between those titles are what really suck. When I first learned of the wii's specs and Nintendo's blue ocean strategy, my gut told me that the waiting period this time around would be much worse. With Nintendo focusing their time aim at non gamers, third parties have been content just making mini games and stripped down versions of core games that can be found on other platforms. Since the the majority of wii's audience tends to gobble those sub par games up, honestly why should these developers stop? Accordingly, why should Nintendo even bother pushing themselves? With this larger audience they can make all crappy mini games they want, because they know they will make more money than they ever did during the last two generations. They know the Nintendo fanboys will always be there, and they feel as if there is no need to visually cater to you. To keep you honest though, they'll throw out the name Zelda and will believe that'll be enough to sustain you until they release the game 2-3 years from now, or better yet delay it so that you'll be forced to buy it on their new system. Renegade_Fury

Exactly, there will still be some hardcore games. It's just that the infamous Nintendo droughts will be worse than ever, as more resources go towards casual games. And we're in what looks to be the start of a real major one right now.

The thing is it seems like Nintendo actually thought this conferance would please hardcores. I saw the interview afterwords with Reggie when he seemed offended and said very forcefully "How could they feel left out?!" meetroid8

:lol: couldn't even get GTA on Wii, had to toss it on DS. Hopefully it is good on DS though, I wish they would have shown something on it though.

[QUOTE="meetroid8"]The thing is it seems like Nintendo actually thought this conferance would please hardcores. I saw the interview afterwords with Reggie when he seemed offended and said very forcefully "How could they feel left out?!" MikeE21286

:lol: couldn't even get GTA on Wii, had to toss it on DS. Hopefully it is good on DS though, I wish they would have shown something on it though.

Expect some shoddy, rushed, effortless garbage.

I support subrosian 100%

Great post. and the 1st was also very well done.

[QUOTE="ReturnOfShinobi"][QUOTE="DireToad"]

It's great to see people finally adding 1 + 1 about Nintendo and their future.


Well except for Willy105 of course.

sam280992

Oh yeah I remember that, it seemed a bit odd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3

"The E3 Media and Business Summit, formerly known as Electronic Entertainment Expo and commonly known as E3, is an annual trade show for the computer and video games industry presented by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA). It is used by many video game developers to show off their upcoming games and game-related hardware."

E3 is a trade show to show off upcoming games. Where does it say its for investers or retailers? All Nintendo did was show a couple new peripherials, gameplay video of a new game, some casual games, and a logo for the GTA game for DS.

Shadow2k6

[QUOTE="MikeE21286"]

[QUOTE="meetroid8"]The thing is it seems like Nintendo actually thought this conferance would please hardcores. I saw the interview afterwords with Reggie when he seemed offended and said very forcefully "How could they feel left out?!" death919

:lol: couldn't even get GTA on Wii, had to toss it on DS. Hopefully it is good on DS though, I wish they would have shown something on it though.

Expect some shoddy, rushed, effortless garbage.

:roll: You know, it's just possible that they actually were developing and making the game without telling us?

[QUOTE="Shadow2k6"]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3

"The E3 Media and Business Summit, formerly known as Electronic Entertainment Expo and commonly known as E3, is an annual trade show for the computer and video games industry presented by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA). It is used by many video game developers to show off their upcoming games and game-related hardware."

E3 is a trade show to show off upcoming games. Where does it say its for investers or retailers? All Nintendo did was show a couple new peripherials, gameplay video of a new game, some casual games, and a logo for the GTA game for DS.

MagnuzGuerra

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

Eddie-Vedder

Fantastic thread Subrosian, articulated my feelings exactly.

It's very dissapointing to see one of my great childhood influences completely abandon the innovation and strive for excellence that characterised the NES/SNES/N64 era in favour of a fickle audience of non-gamers.

There's nothing wrong with discussing sales figures at a conference, but Nintendo die-hards seem to have themselves fooled by a few things.

Firstly, E3 is not a shareholders conference. It's mainly to for developers to show off software and hardware, not the console giants to give a sales pitch.

Secondly, if E3 was a sales pitch, it makes absolutely no sense that Microsoft and Sony did not focus on the things that Nintendo did.

The diagnosis for all this is clear, Nintendo had little interesting to show, so they played to their strengths (sales). We do this on System Wars, they do this at E3.

[QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

MagnuzGuerra

No, your trying to delude yourself into a parallel reality where what Nintendo did was perfectly respectable and with precedent.

Personally, I'd rather be crying.

[QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

MagnuzGuerra

Tears? I Jumped off the nintendo bandwagon after the N64, check my posting history I called this at the very begining of this gen and was flamed silly.

for all thouse who said that casualisation would not kill nintendo, i shall cue the drumbs :lol:

goonight sweet prince.... if 'the reginator' thinks that animal crossing is supporting nintendos traditional and long-standing fanbase then he deservs to be burned at the stake!

[QUOTE="MagnuzGuerra"][QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

Eddie-Vedder

Tears? I Jumped off the nintendo bandwagon after the N64, check my posting history I called this at the very begining of this gen and was flamed silly.

No, your trying to delude yourself into a parallel reality where what Nintendo did was perfectly respectable and with precedent.

Personally, I'd rather be crying.

Danm_999

[QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

MagnuzGuerra

I just read the article in your sig, "Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy". Good article. Its author correctly observes that because many developers aren't trying to create good casual games, those games are going unsold, whereas Nintendo better understands its market, and is selling well as a result.

What he theorized was that as gamers became more familiar with titles, due to Nintendo's downmarket approach, Nintendo would create titles that were more and more complex, integrating those gamers into the 'upstream' market. But what has happened? Nintendo has ceased altogether to introduce more upmarket games. If anything, Nintendo is trying to 'downstream' the upmarket gamers, with games that are simpler and simpler, producing the Wii Sports 2 that Malstrom said would never come about. And now, instead of fleeing from Nintendo's territory, Sony and Microsoft are infiltrating it themselves.

So what exactly is Nintendo up to?

I just read the article in your sig, "Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy". Good article. Its author correctly observes that because many developers aren't trying to create good casual games, those games are going unsold, whereas Nintendo better understands its market, and is selling well as a result.

sonicmj1

What he theorized was that as gamers became more familiar with titles, due to Nintendo's downmarket approach, Nintendo would create titles that were more and more complex, integrating those gamers into the 'upstream' market.

But what has happened? Nintendo has ceased altogether to introduce more upmarket games.If anything, Nintendo is trying to 'downstream' the upmarket gamers, with games that are simpler and simpler, producing the Wii Sports 2 that Malstrom said would never come about.sonicmj1

And now, instead of fleeing from Nintendo's territory, Sony and Microsoft are infiltrating it themselves.

sonicmj1

So what exactly is Nintendo up to?

sonicmj1

Nintendo does not care. What they are doing is making them richer than anyone else. They want the world to be able to get into gaming easily and they are doing it perfectly with the Wii and DS. Look how many girls, old people, other non gamers they have reached out to.

I have not played my Wii and enjoyed it since 2 weeks after SSBB. That game really did not do much for me like SSBM did. I realize what Nintendo is doing and I will be leaving gaming after this generation because this is the future.

[QUOTE="MagnuzGuerra"][QUOTE="Eddie-Vedder"]

... It means Nintendo choose to show what it did, it wasn't forced, it wasn't cause they were supposed too.

sonicmj1

I just read the article in your sig, "Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy". Good article. Its author correctly observes that because many developers aren't trying to create good casual games, those games are going unsold, whereas Nintendo better understands its market, and is selling well as a result.

What he theorized was that as gamers became more familiar with titles, due to Nintendo's downmarket approach, Nintendo would create titles that were more and more complex, integrating those gamers into the 'upstream' market. But what has happened? Nintendo has ceased altogether to introduce more upmarket games. If anything, Nintendo is trying to 'downstream' the upmarket gamers, with games that are simpler and simpler, producing the Wii Sports 2 that Malstrom said would never come about. And now, instead of fleeing from Nintendo's territory, Sony and Microsoft are infiltrating it themselves.

So what exactly is Nintendo up to?

they've gotten greedy and falen for the fallacy themselvs ( i to LOVE that article) they think that its the 'casual' factor that will make them a quick buck whilst infact it will burn them if they go to far. things could go horribly wrong from here for ninty...

:lol: and why is that? I thought Nintendo's conference was boring, and that's it. I'm in no way concerned about the "hardcore" or "casual" way of gaming. I'm still getting the games I want to play. That's the reality.MagnuzGuerra

Your very flexible in what you want then.

To go from what Nintendo has offered in past generations to being sated by Wii Music and Wii Sports 2 is noble.

[QUOTE="sonicmj1"]

What he theorized was that as gamers became more familiar with titles, due to Nintendo's downmarket approach, Nintendo would create titles that were more and more complex, integrating those gamers into the 'upstream' market. MagnuzGuerra

But what has happened? Nintendo has ceased altogether to introduce more upmarket games.If anything, Nintendo is trying to 'downstream' the upmarket gamers, with games that are simpler and simpler, producing the Wii Sports 2 that Malstrom said would never come about.sonicmj1

Is that what happened with the DS? Or did Nintendo significantly slow their contribution to the platform after it caught on, with just Pokemon Mystery Dungeon to sustain it, and leaving third parties to pick up the slack? Fortunately, third parties have filled the gap, and made plenty of titles for both audiences. Will that occur with the Wii?

That's the question, because it's not just that Nintendo merely continued the production of 'downstream' games. If anything, they've increased it, made it the entire focus of their commitment to the platform, and not supplying anything to the upmarket. Perhaps they're pursuing a similar strategy to the DS, where the upmarket first party games are few and far between compared to downmarket titles, and third parties are meant to introduce customers to the upmarket? I could imagine this scenario, but it won't work as well here as on the DS, because the commitment is weaker.

As you said, only Nintendo knows for sure, so we'll see. But I can't help but be apprehensive, as a core gamer, about the future possibilities on the platform.

[QUOTE="MagnuzGuerra"] :lol: and why is that? I thought Nintendo's conference was boring, and that's it. I'm in no way concerned about the "hardcore" or "casual" way of gaming. I'm still getting the games I want to play. That's the reality.Danm_999

Your very flexible in what you want then.

To go from what Nintendo has offered in past generations to being sated by Wii Music and Wii Sports 2 is noble.

they've gotten greedy and falen for the fallacy themselvs ( i to LOVE that article) they think that its the 'casual' factor that will make them a quick buck whilst infact it will burn them if they go to far. things could go horribly wrong from here for ninty...

thegoldenpoo

In the long run they will - those "new gamers" have no love for the gaming medium, or Nintendo... and that's a dangerous thing.

[QUOTE="ReturnOfShinobi"][QUOTE="DireToad"]

It's great to see people finally adding 1 + 1 about Nintendo and their future.


Well except for Willy105 of course.

sam280992

Oh yeah I remember that, it seemed a bit odd.

That was really odd - especially given that moderators had already edited my thread with TOU reminders, and I had already been informed it would be stickied later. It's not something that's new for me though - I was informed a while ago that there are a handful of posters who were actually reporting *every single post I made* :| ...

-

Anyway, long story short, I don't feel Willy105's point-of-view is even representative of Nintendo fans. For example, Tsug_Ze_Wind just made a blog admitting that the press conference was a dissapointment (explaining why and how he felt it would be different in the future - but still). I have seen few if any other Nintendo fans saying the conference was a good thing - most of them are just trying to say it'll "improve in the future" (it hasn't in the past 12 months... but whatever).

At least, that's the feeling I've gotten as far as other Nintendo fan's reactions.

[QUOTE="sam280992"][QUOTE="ReturnOfShinobi"][QUOTE="DireToad"]

It's great to see people finally adding 1 + 1 about Nintendo and their future.


Well except for Willy105 of course.

subrosian

Oh yeah I remember that, it seemed a bit odd.

That was really odd - especially given that moderators had already edited my thread with TOU reminders, and I had already been informed it would be stickied later. It's not something that's new for me though - I was informed a while ago that there are a handful of posters who were actually reporting *every single post I made* :| ...

-

Anyway, long story short, I don't feel Willy105's point-of-view is even representative of Nintendo fans. For example, Tsug_Ze_Wind just made a blog admitting that the press conference was a dissapointment (explaining why and how he felt it would be different in the future - but still). I have seen few if any other Nintendo fans saying the conference was a good thing - most of them are just trying to say it'll "improve in the future" (it hasn't in the past 12 months... but whatever).

At least, that's the feeling I've gotten as far as other Nintendo fan's reactions.

I'm not interested in Wii Music or Wii Sports 2 at all, but I liked the first Wii Sports. I'm flexible enough to enjoy new games when they are really new (and not a new IP with template gameplay like most new FPSs) and old favourites. I'll only get the games I want, I don't think I have to support anyone. If there's no game I'm interested, I won't buy. But, that's not the case, for me at least. But what I really don't get is why you and others think Nintendo will simple bury the old franchises. There's no logical explanation for that.MagnuzGuerra

Interesting new quote from Shiggy:

On the subject of Wii Music:

Q: "Is there a goal?" And if there isn't one, wouldn't it be better considered a toy?"

Shigeru: "That's right. And that's why it's more interesting than a video game."

Interesting...

Goodbye Nintendo? I guess you didn't see the part of the show with Ravi Drums then.ThugKing6669

I forgot about that,Ravi Drums!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOOT /TREAD

Really e3 as a whole was disappointing, Microsoft had the best showing by letting everyone know they were getting ff13, a multi plat. Although i would of loved to have seen something Huge by Nintendo, it just didnt happen meh. And everyone touted figures microsoft went on and on about live the increased attach rate ect ect... and im sure sony would have too... but i dont think they really have any.

All and all everyone failed imo

p.s. I feel the Penny Arcade comic out today illustrates this perfectly

Interesting new quote from Shiggy:

On the subject of Wii Music:

Q: "Is there a goal?" And if there isn't one, wouldn't it be better considered a toy?"

Shigeru: "That's right. And that's why it's more interesting than a video game."

Interesting...

Vyyral

So they're saying it's not a gaming system? Isn't that a default?

At least they are working on Pikmin 3

anyways heres a video showing the enitre nintendo conference in 60 secs

Can you mention any of the games you will be playing on your Wii in the near future?JLF1

Let's look at the first party list for 08 that Nintendo gave IGN...

Animal Crossing and Wario

Real great library...at this rate new Mario and Zelda in 2012 when I will be done with gaming entirely. That is if Zelda doesn't get delayed for 5 years like the last one. The most important new first party game we were promised since the launch was SSBB...which was delayed again and again! SMG was suppose to come out at launch, SSBB was suppose to come out summer of last year, Super Paper Mario was moved from GC to Wii...same with Kirby (still MIA)...Zelda was ported to make quick cash. The only game Nintendo didn't mess up was Mario Kart Wii. Oh yeah...Metroid 3 was suppose to be a launch title.

Wow, looking back at this...Home, KZ2, and LBP delays don't seem as bad!

Sheep dont care as usual, its like graphics, they said they didnt matter AT ALL. Then they say art style does, and now, the only reason they hype Conduit is because of its trash graphics

Seriously, the PS2 last gen was a both hardcore and casual console, we got million sellers on that every week. Unfortunately, thats all changed, had it not existed, both MS and Sony would have a lot more gamers to their brands who would buy stuff like Eternal Sonata and Folklore

ReturnOfShinobi

I don't quite understand what the harm is in having both. In a way, Nintendo almost doesn't want to associate itself with real gaming, for fear of having "those people" (aka gamers) on the system changing the image they want (soccer moms playing Wii Fit with their kids)

At least they are working on Pikmin 3

anyways heres a video showing the enitre nintendo conference in 60 secs

EPaul

[QUOTE="ReturnOfShinobi"]

Sheep dont care as usual, its like graphics, they said they didnt matter AT ALL. Then they say art style does, and now, the only reason they hype Conduit is because of its trash graphics

Seriously, the PS2 last gen was a both hardcore and casual console, we got million sellers on that every week. Unfortunately, thats all changed, had it not existed, both MS and Sony would have a lot more gamers to their brands who would buy stuff like Eternal Sonata and Folklore

subrosian

I don't quite understand what the harm is in having both. In a way, Nintendo almost doesn't want to associate itself with real gaming, for fear of having "those people" (aka gamers) on the system changing the image they want (soccer moms playing Wii Fit with their kids)

Yah, the conference sucked, but after it we got a new Mario game, a new Zelda game, a new Pikmin game, possibly a new Kid Icarus game(miyamoto doesn't speak teh best english....) and the news that came after about things unveiled during the conference was awesome. Conduit has 16 player wii speak enabled multiplayer. Animal Crossing Wii has actuall downloadable content, not on the disc kinda stuff. Wii Sports 2 actually looks like a good game, even if it didn't come with WM+. And we got a microphone. I don't see how hard core gamers can be disapointed by all this.....Zelda, Mario, Pikmin and Animal Crossing? Big letdown FTW.

[QUOTE="EPaul"]

At least they are working on Pikmin 3

anyways heres a video showing the enitre nintendo conference in 60 secs

ghostboy108

When you consider that Call of Duty's main selling points are online and graphics, probably

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="ReturnOfShinobi"]

Sheep dont care as usual, its like graphics, they said they didnt matter AT ALL. Then they say art style does, and now, the only reason they hype Conduit is because of its trash graphics

Seriously, the PS2 last gen was a both hardcore and casual console, we got million sellers on that every week. Unfortunately, thats all changed, had it not existed, both MS and Sony would have a lot more gamers to their brands who would buy stuff like Eternal Sonata and Folklore

DireToad

I don't quite understand what the harm is in having both. In a way, Nintendo almost doesn't want to associate itself with real gaming, for fear of having "those people" (aka gamers) on the system changing the image they want (soccer moms playing Wii Fit with their kids)

That only works for so long though - even if you're "winning" the market, at some point you become Atari - the gaming decade ends, consumers move on, and only the hardcore remain. That, or a competitor figures out how to have both markets, like Sony did in the previous two generations. There's a serious question of what to do after the Wii, or if Nintendo will trap themselves as a toy manufacturer.

Arguably though, if Shiggy calls the Wii a toy, and not a gaming platform, should the gaming journalists and gaming sites given it creed? I ask that simply to see how people respond.

Yah, the conference sucked, but after it we got a new Mario game, a new Zelda game, a new Pikmin game, possibly a new Kid Icarus game(miyamoto doesn't speak teh best english....) and the news that came after about things unveiled during the conference was awesome. Conduit has 16 player wii speak enabled multiplayer. Animal Crossing Wii has actuall downloadable content, not on the disc kinda stuff. Wii Sports 2 actually looks like a good game, even if it didn't come with WM+. And we got a microphone. I don't see how hard core gamers can be disapointed by all this.....Zelda, Mario, Pikmin and Animal Crossing? Big letdown FTW.

blingchu55

You don't see how hardcore gamers are letdown by Nintendo focusing an entire conference on casuals *that no casual was watching* and then telling us, at some point in the future, you'll get more of the games you like? No ****, of course Nintendo is going to make another Zelda, Mario, and Pikmin *at some point*. They HAVE NOT confirmed any Kid Icarus games, and they haven't *actually announced* (given us a a release window and shown footage) of any games.

"We're working on a new Zelda title" is not an announcement, the last time they said that, they delayed the game for several years just to get it on the Wii.

Nintendo talks about innovation and shows us none. Nintendo talks about hardcore gamers, then doesn't show hardcore games. Nintendo says they care about veteran gamers, then Reggie throws a pissy fit that GTA DS and Animal Crossing don't cut it as "big announcements for core gamers" that he promised for the E3 conference. And anyone who believes their BS - because this is BS, we whine, they say "don't worry we're working on something for you" - they show Wii Fit, we whine they say "don't worry, we're working on something for you" and they casualize Brawl. We say "c'mon Nintendo, give us a real core game" and they say "it's Animal Crossing, you feel like you're in a real word!"

Uh...huh... that was impressive on the N64 when it was called Animal Forest and GCN as Animal Crossing... since then you've added uh... uh... online, a microphone, and haircuts... and taken away the NES games, the island, and real-world holidays. Let me tell you "Bunny Day" is so damn hardcore that Fata1ty skips Quake tournaments to attend.

Hah! Miyamoto claimed "Now we look at more ... an opportunity for us to introduce new concepts and new types of play "

WHAT NEW GAMEPLAY?

What did Nintendo show at E3 that wasn't promised or shown in 2006 / 2007?