Is there any purpose for dual analog anymore?

@redCloudJ7 and dark-warmachine

Have I proven my point, does it prove that the second analog stick is redundant and not needed in those games?

Mysterious_Kid

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

@redCloudJ7 and dark-warmachine

Have I proven my point, does it prove that the second analog stick is redundant and not needed in those games?

LastRedMage

Is there a flaw in my arguement?

...

Didn't you delete your post just now?

Anyway, a similar argument was present a few pages up.

When I played Devil May Cry, as far as I can remember I didn't use the second analog stick. You expect me to believe this?

If there was only one analog stick, developers of hack n slash button mashers such as Devil May Cry, God Of War and Ninja Gaiden

will simply find an alternative to using the second analog stick, which in this game serves as an extra button or something right?

Developers will just optimise the controls abit, and create the exact same gameplay, with or without a second analog stick.

An example I can use is that the PSP port of god of war, chains of olympus

was fine without that analog stick, and it got fairly high reviews.

From Gamespot review of God Of War Chains of Olympus

"The controls are tight and in general quite good. Learning to evade attacks requires a bit of an adjustment, given that you need to hold both of the shoulder buttons and then move the analog stick, but you get used to it and it works fine. "

From IGN review of God Of War Chains of Olympus

"Though the PSP is missing the L2 and R2 buttons and the right analog stick of the Dual Shock 2, I dare say that the control scheme here works better than on the PS2. Instead of having to use the D-Pad to change between magic types, you now hold R and press a corresponding face button. This means you won't accidentally trigger something you didn't mean to a waste precious magic, and it also means you can switch between them much more easily. Since there isn't a second analog stick, dodging works by pressing L and R at the same time, which again works even better than on the PS2 pad since you don't have to move your thumb off the face buttons. Each of the control changes has been implemented fantastically and you won't miss any of the missing buttons."

Anymore questions?

Mysterious_Kid

The God of War series are button mashers, very noob-friendly, and you know what the funny thing is the fact that the right stick is used to evade and not used to munipulate the camera since they are fixed. Games like DMC and NG do not use a fix camera like GoW and Diablo. So this is a moot point.

It has been a long time since I played Devil May Cry 3, and I still think I didn't evade with the second analog stick.

For me, my evasion was to use stinger on another enemy, to gain some distance between the one I was evading

Also, for button mashers, I heard God of War was the best of the best, so I focused more on it.

EDIT:

Oh I see what you mean. But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it.

It has been a long time since I played Devil May Cry 3, and I still think I didn't evade with the second analog stick.

For me, my evasion was to use stinger on another enemy, to gain some distance between the one I was evading

Also, for button mashers, I heard God of War was the best of the best, so I focused more on it.

Mysterious_Kid

In DMC3 you can not evade with the right stick, I was refering to GoW. In order to evade in DMC3, you have to hold down R1(lock on target) + X and Left stick in any direction to evade.

EDIT- I see that you edited your comment.

Yes there is a purpose. I've been a console gamer for over 25 years, been used to the d-pad, and now dual analog. So far so good, it's worked for me ;)

If I wanted ultra precision, I'd go with KB + M.

The Wiimote DOES have the Potential to be a standard in console control in genres like Railshooters, RTS and FPS (and the usual casual shovelware that flood the Wii). But that's about it, the way I see it. If the Wiimote has proven to be the standard console control, Madden Wii or NBA Live (I don't know if there is one for Wii) would have already skyrocketed in sales, obliterating PS3 and 360 versions. Plus, there would have been a serious sim racer in the same league as Gran Turismo and Forza, on the Wii....for those who enjoy "power" steering in the air, with thier Wheel. :lol:

My room mate has a 360, and while I admit it has been about a year since I played with a standard game pad, I tried playing CoD:WoW and Fallout 3 on his 360 today. And I gotta say, the controls suck. I play Fallout 3 on the PC and going from mouse to analog is night and day. It's going from one of the most intuitive control systems to the least. I have CoD:WoW on the wii, and while it has less content, I don't care because I can aim and don't need some type of assist system. Most people know that dual analog is the worst system for first person games, but I'm pretty confident that the only reason we put up with it is because on consoles at least there was nothing better. We just got used to it. I remember playing halo when it first came out and having trouble at it. I kept playing and got over the learning curve and got better. But now that I have gone back to dual analog after such a long hiatus, it's apparent to me that the control scheme just sucks. A good controls scheme (mouse or wiimote) is one that just comes natural, not one you have to practice at to make up for its flaws.

What genres ARE dual analog good for? Not shooters, you only need one stick for racers and sports, JRPGs don't need one at all really, WRPGs are better with a pointer, RTSs are better with a pointer...the only thing I can think of are third person adventure games for camera control. But all the best well made adventure games these days have such great camera that you don't even really need camera control.

I enjoy having the 4 face buttons and 4 shoulder buttons easily available, but if Sony and MS plan to improve their games next gen, they need an IR pointer or something similar.

goblaa

It has been a long time since I played Devil May Cry 3, and I still think I didn't evade with the second analog stick.

For me, my evasion was to use stinger on another enemy, to gain some distance between the one I was evading

Also, for button mashers, I heard God of War was the best of the best, so I focused more on it.

EDIT:

Oh I see what you mean. But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it.

Mysterious_Kid

Wait, wait, so you want me to disregard two franchise(DMC and NG) that are the pinnacle of 3rd person action games in favor of your argument? LoL

@dark-warmachine

I haven't played DMC in a long time and had never played Ninja Gaiden.

However, in my memory the camera was fine in DMC, where I used lock on to change my view.

Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and adjusting it in game detracts from the experience.

@Steppy_76

For a boxing game, motion controls and much more intuitive than dual analogs.

For the rest of the sports games I cannot comment as I hate sports games.

[QUOTE="goblaa"]

[QUOTE="jakarai"]I am fine with dual analog set up. jasonheyman

Only because you've grown acustom to it. It's still inferior.

Care to explain on the "inferior"??

[QUOTE="Blackbond"]Well it is a factually inferior tool in FPS.

• Speed
• Accuracy
• Precision

The mouse and keyboard is factually superior in these catagories in regards to fps.

jasonheyman

Just out of curiosity but what measures do you say that? Reaction time quicker with hand then finger?

@redCloudJ7 and dark-warmachine

Have I proven my point, does it prove that the second analog stick is redundant and not needed in those games?

Mysterious_Kid

No, you haven't proven your point at all. You've only used God of War as your example and you provide no links. Even though the console games are rated higher from everyone and the majority of people and reviewers regarded the console games as better games in the series.

Look through all the Ninja Gaiden II reviews. Notice what they all mention about the game. Its camera. Look at gamespots review of the game. The games camera is one of the biggest problems in the games design. Imagine how much worse the game would be without the second analog stick.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/943273.asp?q=ninja%20gaiden%20II

God Hand is impossible to beat without a second analog stick period. It is an absolute necessity. Dmc also requires the second analog stick with its camera as well.

Ninja Gaiden Black gamespot review:

"When it was released last year, Ninja Gaiden earned widespread acclaim, though a couple of common criticisms did stick out. Ninja Gaiden Black directly addresses both of these by introducing a new easier difficulty mode, as well as an option for manual control of the camera perspective."

A second analog stick is helpful.

@dark-warmachine

I haven't played DMC in a long time and had never played Ninja Gaiden.

However, in my memory the camera was fine in DMC, where I used lock on to change my view.

Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and adjusting it in game detracts from the experience.

@Steppy_76

For a boxing game, motion controls and much more intuitive than dual analogs.

For the rest of the sports games I cannot comment as I hate sports games.

Mysterious_Kid

Did people forget that the mouse and keyboard were created for WORD PROCESSING?? How does your wrist feel after playing for hours on that keyboard at that awkward angle? Using directional arrows or A, S, D etc..for movement? PULEEEEZ! PC is only good for: MMORPG, Pirating, Hacking, Internet surfing. Of course that is just my humble opinion. heh heh.StarkJJ

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

@redCloudJ7 and dark-warmachine

Have I proven my point, does it prove that the second analog stick is redundant and not needed in those games?

redCloudJ7

No, you haven't proven your point at all. You've only used God of War as your example and you provide no links. Even though the console games are rated higher from everyone and the majority of people and reviewers regarded the console games as better games in the series.

Look through all the Ninja Gaiden II reviews. Notice what they all mention about the game. Its camera. Look at gamespots review of the game. The games camera is one of the biggest problems in the games design. Imagine how much worse the game would be without the second analog stick.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/943273.asp?q=ninja%20gaiden%20II

God Hand is impossible to beat without a second analog stick period. It is an absolute necessity. Dmc also requires the second analog stick with its camera as well.

Ninja Gaiden Black gamespot review:

"When it was released last year, Ninja Gaiden earned widespread acclaim, though a couple of common criticisms did stick out. Ninja Gaiden Black directly addresses both of these by introducing a new easier difficulty mode, as well as an option for manual control of the camera perspective."

A second analog stick is helpful.

...

Quoting myself here.

"But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it."

"Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and having to adjust it in game manually with the analog sticks detracts from the experience. "

[QUOTE="StarkJJ"]Did people forget that the mouse and keyboard were created for WORD PROCESSING?? How does your wrist feel after playing for hours on that keyboard at that awkward angle? Using directional arrows or A, S, D etc..for movement? PULEEEEZ! PC is only good for: MMORPG, Pirating, Hacking, Internet surfing. Of course that is just my humble opinion. heh heh.imprezawrx500

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

@dark-warmachine

I haven't played DMC in a long time and had never played Ninja Gaiden.

However, in my memory the camera was fine in DMC, where I used lock on to change my view.

Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and adjusting it in game detracts from the experience.

@Steppy_76

For a boxing game, motion controls and much more intuitive than dual analogs.

For the rest of the sports games I cannot comment as I hate sports games.

Steppy_76

Look out for the new Punch-Out!!!

Anyway,the point I am trying to make and prove is that dual analogs is not the best input in any game genre.

For example FPS, mouse + keyboard is better

Racers don't use dual analogs only one.

God Of War is better with one stick.

Etc etc etc

It doesn't really get in the way for games that don't use it, and those that do, use it well.Rodneythepom

I think this summarises my God of War example.

Developers made use of the dual analog stick because it was there, but when it wasn't there, the controls were still equally good.

Also, of course a spin-off would score lower than the game of the main series.

[QUOTE="redCloudJ7"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

@redCloudJ7 and dark-warmachine

Have I proven my point, does it prove that the second analog stick is redundant and not needed in those games?

Mysterious_Kid

No, you haven't proven your point at all. You've only used God of War as your example and you provide no links. Even though the console games are rated higher from everyone and the majority of people and reviewers regarded the console games as better games in the series.

Look through all the Ninja Gaiden II reviews. Notice what they all mention about the game. Its camera. Look at gamespots review of the game. The games camera is one of the biggest problems in the games design. Imagine how much worse the game would be without the second analog stick.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/943273.asp?q=ninja%20gaiden%20II

God Hand is impossible to beat without a second analog stick period. It is an absolute necessity. Dmc also requires the second analog stick with its camera as well.

Ninja Gaiden Black gamespot review:

"When it was released last year, Ninja Gaiden earned widespread acclaim, though a couple of common criticisms did stick out. Ninja Gaiden Black directly addresses both of these by introducing a new easier difficulty mode, as well as an option for manual control of the camera perspective."

A second analog stick is helpful.

...

Quoting myself here.

"But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it."

"Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and having to adjust it in game manually with the analog sticks detracts from the experience. "

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

@dark-warmachine

I haven't played DMC in a long time and had never played Ninja Gaiden.

However, in my memory the camera was fine in DMC, where I used lock on to change my view.

Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and adjusting it in game detracts from the experience.

@Steppy_76

For a boxing game, motion controls and much more intuitive than dual analogs.

For the rest of the sports games I cannot comment as I hate sports games.

Mysterious_Kid

Look out for the new Punch-Out!!!

Anyway,the point I am trying to make and prove is that dual analogs is not the best input in any game genre.

For example FPS, mouse + keyboard is better

Racers don't use dual analogs only one.

God Of War is better with one stick.

Etc etc etc

[QUOTE="imprezawrx500"][QUOTE="StarkJJ"]Did people forget that the mouse and keyboard were created for WORD PROCESSING?? How does your wrist feel after playing for hours on that keyboard at that awkward angle? Using directional arrows or A, S, D etc..for movement? PULEEEEZ! PC is only good for: MMORPG, Pirating, Hacking, Internet surfing. Of course that is just my humble opinion. heh heh.Steppy_76

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="imprezawrx500"] and dual analog was not created for fps or any shooting game, point being? k/m for gaming is far more comfortable for long lenghts of time than a gamepadpsychobrew

Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

@redCloudJ7 and dark-warmachine

Have I proven my point, does it prove that the second analog stick is redundant and not needed in those games?

No, you haven't proven your point at all. You've only used God of War as your example and you provide no links. Even though the console games are rated higher from everyone and the majority of people and reviewers regarded the console games as better games in the series.

Look through all the Ninja Gaiden II reviews. Notice what they all mention about the game. Its camera. Look at gamespots review of the game. The games camera is one of the biggest problems in the games design. Imagine how much worse the game would be without the second analog stick.

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/943273.asp?q=ninja%20gaiden%20II

God Hand is impossible to beat without a second analog stick period. It is an absolute necessity. Dmc also requires the second analog stick with its camera as well.

Ninja Gaiden Black gamespot review:

"When it was released last year, Ninja Gaiden earned widespread acclaim, though a couple of common criticisms did stick out. Ninja Gaiden Black directly addresses both of these by introducing a new easier difficulty mode, as well as an option for manual control of the camera perspective."

A second analog stick is helpful.

...

Quoting myself here.

"But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it."

"Also the OP has stated camera in most good games are fine, and having to adjust it in game manually with the analog sticks detracts from the experience. "

Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Rodneythepom

That is the case for most games with bad camera. If a game had good camera, you would never have to adjust it.

Quote redCloudJ7:

"Apparently the op is not very familiar with action games because it is very necessary to adjust the camera. And it helps not detracts from the experience. Look at the critical reception difference between Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden Black."

Same score on gamespot for both.

And how does it not detract from the experience.

Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Steppy_76

A good camera would give you the best view.

If you still want to change it, it is your problem.
Just like how Keyboard + Mouse is undoubtble better than dual analogs for FPSes, if you wish to switch to an inferior option, it is solely your own nitpick, and I cannot argue with that, as it does not make logical sense.

[QUOTE="Rodneythepom"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

That is the case for most games with bad camera. If a game had good camera, you would never have to adjust it.

Quote redCloudJ7:

"Apparently the op is not very familiar with action games because it is very necessary to adjust the camera. And it helps not detracts from the experience. Look at the critical reception difference between Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden Black."

Same score on gamespot for both.

And how does it not detract from the experience.

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?dark-warmachine

No, just an extremely smooth and good auto adjusting camera.

That and minor adjustments aren't a big deal. Take the new prince of persia. I make adjustments every now and then and don't think about it for a second. In fact I like having the analog stick so I can look around and take in the world around me. POP is truly beautifulRodneythepom

Hmm, but still that might not need a second analog stick. It could just use the d-pad to swich the scenary camera, just like in Super Mario Galaxy.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]For ALL games or just shooters? I sure as hell woulnd't call using the KB/M in Madden or in a racing game "far more comfortable". You may not play all of them, but there are TONS of genre's out there and the KB/M certainly isn't comfortable for every one of them.Steppy_76

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

A good camera would give you the best view.

If you still want to change it, it is your problem.
Just like how Keyboard + Mouse is undoubtble better than dual analogs for FPSes, if you wish to switch to an inferior option, it is solely your own nitpick, and I cannot argue with that, as it does not make logical sense.

[QUOTE="Rodneythepom"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

That is the case for most games with bad camera. If a game had good camera, you would never have to adjust it.

Quote redCloudJ7:

"Apparently the op is not very familiar with action games because it is very necessary to adjust the camera. And it helps not detracts from the experience. Look at the critical reception difference between Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden Black."

Same score on gamespot for both.

And how does it not detract from the experience.

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="psychobrew"] Sure, the mouse/keyboard combination doesn't work well with every game (though it's certainly superior in most hard core games), but the Wii's motion control does.psychobrew

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"]Maybe my optimal view of things is different from yours? A good camera can be left alone for those who don't want to use it, and can be changed for those who DO want a different view. Steppy_76

A good camera would give you the best view.

If you still want to change it, it is your problem.
Just like how Keyboard + Mouse is undoubtble better than dual analogs for FPSes, if you wish to switch to an inferior option, it is solely your own nitpick, and I cannot argue with that, as it does not make logical sense.

The thing is, I am unable to find a single reason why the dual analog fpsers can forbear it for so long. I have friends who tell me "I just can't play FPSes on PC", I ask why, and they cannot give me an answer. No, I do not comprehede.

For the best view part, there is no need for the use of an analog stick for the best view. Just preset the few "best" camera angles to the d-pad and there is no need for the second analog stick anymore.

[QUOTE="dark-warmachine"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]Wouldn't you think in the midst of the action, if bad camera got in the way, and you were forced the move it, it would destroy the immersiveness of the game?Mysterious_Kid

No, just an extremely smooth and good auto adjusting camera.

You see now we are arguing preferences. I for one prefer to manipulate the camera myself.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]For YOU maybe, but not for everybody. For the fifth time, you guys are trying to prove your opinion is fact. This whole argument is subjective.Steppy_76

People disagreeing with facts does not make it an opinion.

A long time ago, somebody knew and proved the world was round.

However, people still disagreed, usually using their own set of facts.

So, back then, when the people disagreed with somebody, was the Earth flat? And now, where it is the universal truth, has the Earth suddenly became round?

Hmm, seems like it was Columbus.

While this is only opinion, I own all three consoles, and am buying COD: W@W for Wii for this reason alone.

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

A good camera would give you the best view.

If you still want to change it, it is your problem.
Just like how Keyboard + Mouse is undoubtble better than dual analogs for FPSes, if you wish to switch to an inferior option, it is solely your own nitpick, and I cannot argue with that, as it does not make logical sense.Mysterious_Kid

The thing is, I am unable to find a single reason why the dual analog fpsers can forbear it for so long. I have friends who tell me "I just can't play FPSes on PC", I ask why, and they cannot give me an answer. No, I do not comprehede.

For the best view part, there is no need for the use of an analog stick for the best view. Just preset the few "best" camera angles to the d-pad and there is no need for the second analog stick anymore.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]For YOU maybe, but not for everybody. For the fifth time, you guys are trying to prove your opinion is fact. This whole argument is subjective.Steppy_76

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="psychobrew"] But it is fact. Auto aim and aim assist were invented for anolog sticks for a reason. And Like I already said, there's a reason you don't use an anolog stick to click on icons on your PC. Anolog sticks are slow and innacurate. They tried something similar on lap tops, but you don't see it anymore.Mysterious_Kid

People disagreeing with facts does not make it an opinion.

A long time ago, people (not sure who Galileo?) knew and proved the world was round.

However, people still disagreed, usually using their own set of facts.

So, back then, when the people disagreed with Galileo, was the Earth flat? And now, where it is the universal truth, has the Earth suddenly became round?

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="psychobrew"] But it is fact. Auto aim and aim assist were invented for anolog sticks for a reason. And Like I already said, there's a reason you don't use an anolog stick to click on icons on your PC. Anolog sticks are slow and innacurate. They tried something similar on lap tops, but you don't see it anymore.psychobrew

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]/facepalm There is no such thing as a universal "best view". Can you not grasp that your opinion is NOT universal nor is it fact? Also, while I agree KB/m is better for FPS's I also know that there are some people who will NOT agree and that that doesn't make them wrong or that they have a "problem". For you it wouldn't make sense to go against your opinoin and preference...for someone who doesn't share those sentiments it wouldn't be logical to go against theirs. Your way is not the only way, comprende?

Steppy_76

The thing is, I am unable to find a single reason why the dual analog fpsers can forbear it for so long. I have friends who tell me "I just can't play FPSes on PC", I ask why, and they cannot give me an answer. No, I do not comprehede.

For the best view part, there is no need for the use of an analog stick for the best view. Just preset the few "best" camera angles to the d-pad and there is no need for the second analog stick anymore.

No, other cars can't give you a hell of a ride, if it was driving itself half of the time, and during tight turns.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]The fact that there are people who disagree with you makes it opinion. Why can people not accept that not everybody may go along with their opinion? I know many don't go with mine, and I sure as hell don't act like MY way is the ONLY way.Steppy_76

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

The thing is, I am unable to find a single reason why the dual analog fpsers can forbear it for so long. I have friends who tell me "I just can't play FPSes on PC", I ask why, and they cannot give me an answer. No, I do not comprehede.

For the best view part, there is no need for the use of an analog stick for the best view. Just preset the few "best" camera angles to the d-pad and there is no need for the second analog stick anymore.Mysterious_Kid

No, other cars can't give you a hell of a ride, if it was driving itself half of the time, and during tight turns.

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="psychobrew"] People disagree with all kinds of crazy things, that doesn't make them right. Some people may prefer playing games with cheats, does that make me wrong to say that those people aren't real gamers? Auto aim is just like a cheat, but mad neccessary due to the fact that the controls aren't well suited to the game type. If dual analog were as good as kb/mouse for FPS, auto aim and aim assist would simply not be neccessary. Do some people prefer to play FPS with inferior controls? Sure, but again, that doesn't chang the fact that analog sticks aren't as good as Wii motion or KB/Mouse for this type of game.psychobrew

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]As I also stated, there are more games out there than just FPS's. Play a game of madden with KB/M.Steppy_76