Is there any purpose for dual analog anymore?

Never really thought about that too much. That would be really odd to see a new controller with one analog stick. Consoles just need KB/M support for the best of both worlds. -Master_St3ve-

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"]The fact that there are people who disagree with you makes it opinion. Why can people not accept that not everybody may go along with their opinion? I know many don't go with mine, and I sure as hell don't act like MY way is the ONLY way.Steppy_76

People disagreeing with facts does not make it an opinion.

A long time ago, people (not sure who Galileo?) knew and proved the world was round.

However, people still disagreed, usually using their own set of facts.

So, back then, when the people disagreed with Galileo, was the Earth flat? And now, where it is the universal truth, has the Earth suddenly became round?

First of all, I used that analagy to prove that if people disagree with something, it does not equate to be an opinion

Second of all, I am not talking about the preference of an inferior controller. I am saying that it is fact that dual analogs is the worse form of input for an FPS.

Also, Steps, you are using opinions to backup your arguements too. Don't think that just because I have a lower postcount than you, means that I am inferior. If you do not wish to "argue" with me, so be it. You are basically just saying "no" to all my responses anyway.

No Hard Feelings.

Never really thought about that too much. That would be really odd to see a new controller with one analog stick. Consoles just need KB/M support for the best of both worlds. -Master_St3ve-

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="psychobrew"] Sure, there are better ways to play an old game like Madden than KB/Mouse, but the Wii motion controls work extremely well.psychobrew

Also, Steps, you are using opinions to backup your arguements too. Don't think that just because I have a lower postcount than you, means that I am inferior. If you do not wish to "argue" with me, so be it. You are basically just saying "no" to all my responses anyway.

No Hard Feelings.

Mysterious_Kid

We already know that the dual analog sticks are an inferior form of input for an FPS compared to M&K but does that mean M&K are the superior form for gaming as a whole? NOOOOOOOOOO.dark-warmachine

I'd like to once again point out that I, the TC, was never arguing that. Other peeps were. That was never the point of this topic, it just got steered that way...just for the record. :P

pointer controls have more advantages than DA. FACT, but that doesnt mean that people cant prefer it.

and some people dont realize that a second analog stick isnt the only way to move a camera

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

People disagreeing with facts does not make it an opinion.

A long time ago, people (not sure who Galileo?) knew and proved the world was round.

However, people still disagreed, usually using their own set of facts.

So, back then, when the people disagreed with Galileo, was the Earth flat? And now, where it is the universal truth, has the Earth suddenly became round?

Mysterious_Kid

First of all, I used that analagy to prove that if people disagree with something, it does not equate to be an opinion

Second of all, I am not talking about the preference of an inferior controller. I am saying that it is fact that dual analogs is the worse form of input for an FPS.

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]The shape of the planet is not a preference, prefered methods of controlling video games IS.Steppy_76

First of all, I used that analagy to prove that if people disagree with something, it does not equate to be an opinion

Second of all, I am not talking about the preference of an inferior controller. I am saying that it is fact that dual analogs is the worse form of input for an FPS.

It is you who don't understand what an opinion is.

From Wikipedia:

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something which it is either impossible to verify the truth of, or the truth of which is thought unimportant to the person.

It is easy to verify which input, dual analogs or Keyboard + Mouse is superior for FPS gaming. Just test the performance of both.

Pre-Proven Fact: Auto-aim is bad, as it lets the computer take over the control, leading to less accurate. Thus providing no advantage to dual analogs, and will be removed to prove the below fact.

Fact: At this moment of the posting, it is superior to use a gaming mouse (Lets use Microsoft's sidewinder) + Keyboard (Lets use Razer Lycosa™) for First-Person Shooters in the sense of better performance than Dual analogs of the current technology (XBox360 Controller, Dual Shock 3, Classic Controller).

Evidence:

1) The mouse has more custimisation options in sensitivity than dual analogs.

i) For Sidewinder: Three buttons instantly switch between DPI 400, 800, and 2000 - or you can customize settings using special software.

ii) For Dual Analogs: No such option, only ingame, where PC FPSes yet again have more customisation options.

2) The mouse is more accurate than the dual analogs.

i) For Dual Analogs: The analog has a much shorter range of movement than a mouse. This equates to the movement of the y & x axis on screen to be split into much smaller movement length than on the mouse. Minute differences in pressure applied to the analog will lead to very drastic difference in movement on screen. Thus, it is easy to overshoot, undershoot a still target.

ii) For Sidewinder: The mouse has a much larger range of movement. A small mouse pad would be approximately half an A4 size paper in area, which much larger than the area dual analog can move. This equates to the movement of the y & x axis on screen to be split into much larger movement length than on the dual analogs. Minute differences in pressure applied to the mouse will lead to very minute difference in movement on the screen. Thus, it is easy to meet the target with nearly pinpoint accuracy.

3) The mouse is much faster than dual analogs.

i) For Dual Analogs: There is a very strictly imposed speed limit. Your analog stick can only move that about half a centimeter. Once you have reached that half a centimeter limit, the reticule will move at a maximum constant speed.

ii) For Sidewinder: There is very large range of movement. Depending on your size of mousepad, the range of movement is different. But it is a fact that no well made gaming mousepad is less than a centimeter in radius. As there is more room to move than dual analog, the mouse can have a much higher rate of acceleration, and reach that maximum constant speed much faster.

4) There is more freedom with Mouse + Keyboard combination than Dual analogs.

i) For Mouse + Keyboard: You can map all sorts of macros and whatnots on the keyboard. For example, some players map a button to play a specific section of a song with a single click. This is usually a adreneline pumping song, which can allow the user to focus and "get in the zone" leading higher performance. (Perrsonal Experience: When playing FPSes, I can usually go into "super saiyan" mode where I have perfect accuracy, insane speed, and shooting is all done in a swift process. However, most of the time, I quickly lose focus, and ask myself: Whoa How did I do that? What should I do now? As my "super saiyan" mode is very intuitive, I do no and cannot think nearly at all while I am doing it. As such, focus is extremely important to me)

ii) For Dual Analogs: You can switch some your controls. Just like a PC can do, most of the time better, as some control shooters only allow switching between a few preset control schemes.

I hope this reasons are sufficient to prove that Mouse + Keyboard is superior to Dual Analogs. There are more reasons I can think off, but they are very hard to show unless put into practice.

Also, lying on a couch does not positively affect gaming performance.

]While I agree with you on that point, and it is a very widely held opinion, it is STILL just an opinion. There are people out there who do better with dual analog over M/KB even with FPS's, and if they do better then for them it is NOT an inferior controller. Are you this obtuse on purpose, or do you honestly not understand what an opinion is?

Steppy_76

Even if people like Dual Analogs better for FPS it doesn't change the fact that it is technically inferior compared to mouse and keyboard in FPS games. An opinion is someone liking one or the other better which is something that isn't right or wrong. But factually when it comes to speed, accuracy, and precision the Mouse and Keyboard crushes an analog stick. That is not an opinion that is a technological fact. If its ones preference to use a less efficent tool then more power to them but ones opinion doesn't change the fact that an analog stick with less degrees of movement which results to needing to be reliant on sticky and auto aim is as an effective tool in playing FPS.

Any way you look at it the analog stick has to rely on several handicaps while the mouse does not.

FPS will always play better on PC with a mouse and a keyboard, it's just more efficient. And I don't think no one could question that after playing with a controller and then with a mouse and keyboard (or viceversa).

But that's just for FPS and maybe RTS (although some console RTSes do play well with a controller). The fact is the dual analog still plays better on most games.

[QUOTE="jasonheyman"][QUOTE="goblaa"]in-fe-ri-or: Adj: 1. lower in station, rank, degree, or grade (often fol. by to): a rank inferior to colonel. 2. lower in place or position; closer to the bottom or base: descending into the inferior regions of the earth. 3. of comparatively low grade; poor in quality; substandard: an inferior product. 4. less important, valuable, or worthy: B+ bonds are inferior to AAA bonds. 5. acting or performing in a way that is comparatively poor or mediocre: an inferior observer of human nature.

goblaa

I know what the word means I meant explain why you feel that way. When they first came out yes it took getting used to. But now that it's been there for so long I don't see myself being able to play without a second one..

The fact that you have to grow acustom to it makes it inferior. A mouse and the wiimote's pointer come 100% natural. And to boot, they are faster and more precise.

Grab someone with no gaming experience and have them play CoD on the 360, PC, and Wii. They will pick up the PC and Wii instantly. That makes dual analog inferior.

I know this is from way back at the start of the thread, but I just had to add this about this statement. No the mouse isn't instantly intuitive actually. I remember when games first started to use them they took some MAJOR getting used to. Now though, a mouse is just more common place, and almost everyone gets to use one (in the USA at least) from the time they are toddlers or younger now. So when you go to finnally play a game with them you are accustomed to them already. Has nothing to do with intuition.

I'm not saying that I prefer the controller set up by the way. I do like to sit on my couch and play games, and when I do I'm playing against others who are also using a controller on a game that was coded to be used with a controller. When I play a game on my PC I am playing against others who are using keyboard and mouse on a game that was coded to be used with a keyboard and mouse. Knowing this it is pretty hard to gain an advantage one way or the other by what you are using to control your game avatar.

My $0.02.

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"]

]While I agree with you on that point, and it is a very widely held opinion, it is STILL just an opinion. There are people out there who do better with dual analog over M/KB even with FPS's, and if they do better then for them it is NOT an inferior controller. Are you this obtuse on purpose, or do you honestly not understand what an opinion is?

Blackbond

Even if people like Dual Analogs better for FPS it doesn't change the fact that it is technically inferior compared to mouse and keyboard in FPS games. An opinion is someone liking one or the other better which is something that isn't right or wrong. But factually when it comes to speed, accuracy, and precision the Mouse and Keyboard crushes an analog stick. That is not an opinion that is a technological fact. If its ones preference to use a less efficent tool then more power to them but ones opinion doesn't change the fact that an analog stick with less degrees of movement which results to needing to be reliant on sticky and auto aim is as an effective tool in playing FPS.

Any way you look at it the analog stick has to rely on several handicaps while the mouse does not.

[QUOTE="Blackbond"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]

]While I agree with you on that point, and it is a very widely held opinion, it is STILL just an opinion. There are people out there who do better with dual analog over M/KB even with FPS's, and if they do better then for them it is NOT an inferior controller. Are you this obtuse on purpose, or do you honestly not understand what an opinion is?

Steppy_76

Even if people like Dual Analogs better for FPS it doesn't change the fact that it is technically inferior compared to mouse and keyboard in FPS games. An opinion is someone liking one or the other better which is something that isn't right or wrong. But factually when it comes to speed, accuracy, and precision the Mouse and Keyboard crushes an analog stick. That is not an opinion that is a technological fact. If its ones preference to use a less efficent tool then more power to them but ones opinion doesn't change the fact that an analog stick with less degrees of movement which results to needing to be reliant on sticky and auto aim is as an effective tool in playing FPS.

Any way you look at it the analog stick has to rely on several handicaps while the mouse does not.

Accuracy and Precision are not subjective in this comparison it is a fact that a mouse is more accuracte and precise then a analog stick. Just think about the techinical aspects of a mouse compared to an analog stick. There is more degrees of control with a mouse then there is on an analog stick period. That's not even up for discussion.

Explain to me what handicap a mouse has in FPS? It doesn't have aim assist, auto aim, or sticky aim. Your aim is your aim. Analog sticks in FPS have to have handicaps out of mere playability.

Your preference means nothing. I don't care about your opinions. There is no way in hell that you could possibly prove that a mouse an tool that has movement on the precision of a pixel is not more accuracte and precise then an analog stick.

I'd love to see how long it would take you to even draw that simple picture via a analog stick compared to a mouse. You don't have to be exact but I'd just love to watch someone attempt to draw that picture with dual analogs compared to a mouse. That is an example of the difference in control from the mouse and an analog.

I cant belive this thread is still going.

They need a DA vs. KB/M head to head to settle this :D

my predictions:

RTS: KB/M

FPS: KB/M

MMORPG: KB/M

Fighter: DA or Joystick

Driving: Wheel > DA > KB/M (ouch)

Action: mostly DA but depends on the game

feel free to add anything I missed

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Blackbond"]

Even if people like Dual Analogs better for FPS it doesn't change the fact that it is technically inferior compared to mouse and keyboard in FPS games. An opinion is someone liking one or the other better which is something that isn't right or wrong. But factually when it comes to speed, accuracy, and precision the Mouse and Keyboard crushes an analog stick. That is not an opinion that is a technological fact. If its ones preference to use a less efficent tool then more power to them but ones opinion doesn't change the fact that an analog stick with less degrees of movement which results to needing to be reliant on sticky and auto aim is as an effective tool in playing FPS.

Any way you look at it the analog stick has to rely on several handicaps while the mouse does not.

Blackbond

Accuracy and Precision are not subjective in this comparison it is a fact that a mouse is more accuracte and precise then a analog stick. Just think about the techinical aspects of a mouse compared to an analog stick. There is more degrees of control with a mouse then there is on an analog stick period. That's not even up for discussion.

Explain to me what handicap a mouse has in FPS? It doesn't have aim assist, auto aim, or sticky aim. Your aim is your aim. Analog sticks in FPS have to have handicaps out of mere playability.

Your preference means nothing. I don't care about your opinions. There is no way in hell that you could possibly prove that a mouse an tool that has movement on the precision of a pixel is not more accuracte and precise then an analog stick.

I'd love to see how long it would take you to even draw that simple picture via a analog stick compared to a mouse. You don't have to be exact but I'd just love to watch someone attempt to draw that picture with dual analogs compared to a mouse. That is an example of the difference in control from the mouse and an analog.

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

It has been a long time since I played Devil May Cry 3, and I still think I didn't evade with the second analog stick.

For me, my evasion was to use stinger on another enemy, to gain some distance between the one I was evading

Also, for button mashers, I heard God of War was the best of the best, so I focused more on it.

EDIT:

Oh I see what you mean. But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it.

dark-warmachine

Wait, wait, so you want me to disregard two franchise(DMC and NG) that are the pinnacle of 3rd person action games in favor of your argument? LoL

[QUOTE="dark-warmachine"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]

It has been a long time since I played Devil May Cry 3, and I still think I didn't evade with the second analog stick.

For me, my evasion was to use stinger on another enemy, to gain some distance between the one I was evading

Also, for button mashers, I heard God of War was the best of the best, so I focused more on it.

EDIT:

Oh I see what you mean. But still, stated in the OP, most good third person games have good camera, so you do not need an analog stick to adjust it.

dark-warmachine

Wait, wait, so you want me to disregard two franchise(DMC and NG) that are the pinnacle of 3rd person action games in favor of your argument? LoL

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Blackbond"]

Wait, wait, so you want me to disregard two franchise(DMC and NG) that are the pinnacle of 3rd person action games in favor of your argument? LoLMysterious_Kid

New Fact: For people with a wrist and a working hand, the mouse will always be superior in performance to a analog stick when equal time gaming with the two inputs is done.Mysterious_Kid

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]New Fact: For people with a wrist and a working hand, the mouse will always be superior in performance to a analog stick when equal time gaming with the two inputs is done.Steppy_76

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]New Fact: For people with a wrist and a working hand, the mouse will always be superior in performance to a analog stick when equal time gaming with the two inputs is done.Steppy_76

[QUOTE="Steppy_76"][QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"]New Fact: For people with a wrist and a working hand, the mouse will always be superior in performance to a analog stick when equal time gaming with the two inputs is done.psychobrew

[QUOTE="Mysterious_Kid"][QUOTE="Steppy_76"]Nope, that isn't a fact. Claiming one superior over the other is a matter of opinion. Superiority is entirely subjective.Steppy_76

Just cause you are n00b at using standard gamepads does not mean that there no purpose for them. whitetiger3521

If duel analog is so bad then what do you suggest? A well made PC is 3X the cost of a PS3 and the wii mote doesn't work fot all game either. A keyboard is decent but I prefer a PS3 or 360 controller over a keyboard or a Wii mote. Maybe if the Wii mote was better designed to play other games......gamefan274

[QUOTE="Couth_"][QUOTE="jasonheyman"]

Just out of curiosity but what measures do say that? Reaction time quicker with hand then finger?

Blackbond

How is saying that moving a mouse grants you more speed, accuracy, and precion in comparison to moving an analog stick propaganda? The mouse having more speed, accuracy, and precision is a fact.

ANd how is it more work? You use a mouse every day in your life whether you surf the net, do school work whatever? Please tell me you don't find doing those every day things work because really using a controller isn't work either. Infact if using any controller input is work and you're not playing DDR, RockBand, Beatmania or something then I don't know what to say.

i know people that dont own computers, but own 360s, so this everyday life of using a mouse isnt necessarily true

[QUOTE="gamefan274"]If duel analog is so bad then what do you suggest? A well made PC is 3X the cost of a PS3 and the wii mote doesn't work fot all game either. A keyboard is decent but I prefer a PS3 or 360 controller over a keyboard or a Wii mote. Maybe if the Wii mote was better designed to play other games......psychobrew

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="gamefan274"]If duel analog is so bad then what do you suggest? A well made PC is 3X the cost of a PS3 and the wii mote doesn't work fot all game either. A keyboard is decent but I prefer a PS3 or 360 controller over a keyboard or a Wii mote. Maybe if the Wii mote was better designed to play other games......savagetwinkie

You have never played one. Of course you can strafe.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"][QUOTE="gamefan274"]If duel analog is so bad then what do you suggest? A well made PC is 3X the cost of a PS3 and the wii mote doesn't work fot all game either. A keyboard is decent but I prefer a PS3 or 360 controller over a keyboard or a Wii mote. Maybe if the Wii mote was better designed to play other games......savagetwinkie

[QUOTE="jasonheyman"][QUOTE="goblaa"]

Only because you've grown acustom to it. It's still inferior.

Blackbond

Care to explain on the "inferior"??

Well it is a factually inferior tool in FPS.

• Speed
• Accuracy
• Precision

@goblaas worst comment ever....SO mouse an wii mote come natrual 100% right? lol so even grandmas that never used a PC can get on it and become the best FPS players cause its 100% natural right?

[QUOTE="Blackbond"][QUOTE="jasonheyman"]

Care to explain on the "inferior"??

WilliamRLBaker

Well it is a factually inferior tool in FPS.

• Speed
• Accuracy
• Precision

@goblaas worst comment ever....SO mouse an wii mote come natrual 100% right? lol so even grandmas that never used a PC can get on it and become the best FPS players cause its 100% natural right?

Speed turning is faster on a controller? LOLOLOLOL

Yeah it takes about an hour to turn a full 180 degrees with a controller man I don't know where you are getting that mess from. Moving your hand on the mouse moves to the desired location. Pushing analogs moves you to that location.

So whats quicker. Moving to that location or straight up going to that location? Because you can only hold the analog all the way to one end and wait for the character to move where as in a mouse you can move as fast as you can scroll.

Wow you did not seriously make that comment lol

Saying either one being superior to the other as fact is wrong. Superiority is subjective and is an opinion. Steppy_76

There is nothing subjective about a mouse being more superior when it comes to speed, accuracy, and presicion. That is fact. If it wasn't then console FPS wouldn't be using sticky aim and aim assist handicaps. There is nothing subjective about those three catagories. The mouse will give a user those three advantages over analogs, period.

This thread should have ended the moment I brought up DMC and NG. Like I've said many times before I would love to see an M&K user play them. Now we have people arguing that M&K are the superior form of input for an FPS. You see I view this argument as beating a dead horse. Why? because only an idiot would argue against that.dark-warmachine

Lawls I can't imagine playing those games with M/KB. Dual Analog definately has its place. Don't let Goblaa make you think different.