MW2 PC sold 290,000 copies, was pirated over 4 million times Ouch!

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lundy86_4

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#301 lundy86_4  Online
Member since 2003 • 62035 Posts

Like the article says, I think this is mainly a regional thing. It sure as hell seems PC gaming is dying a bit in the U.S., while it may be booming in other parts of the world. Its all relative I suppose. Even still, it seems like the PC seems to get the short end of the stick for alot of new and big releases. You've got to wonder why this is when the PC gaming userbase is supposedly much larger than consoles. Just food for thought I guess. Is it because of piracy? I honestly dont know.h575309

I addressed the fact that the majority of PC gamers seem to operate out of Europe and Asia, however I would disagree that the PC gaming market is decreasing in the states. Just that console presence is increasing.

North America, as a target audience is switching more to a life of convenience, hence the transition from retail to DD for PC gamers. It obviously takes the presence out of retail, and out of the "public eye".

The PC does seem to get the short end of the stick in a lot of instances, but it's hardly exclusive to the system, considering the PS3 has been passed over as a system for multiplats on numerous occasions, in favour of going PC/360.

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AdrianWerner

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#302 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

And people say the 360's piracy problems are close to the PC's...

The_Game21x

They aren't. However 360 has it's own problem that's just as bad for publishers: used games

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AdrianWerner

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#303 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

I'm waiting for the day that all developers stop developing games for PC, these pirates deserve having nothing to play.Bear_in_Action
I think the idea is that they make games not for pirates, but for people who buy games.

Plus please..you want those people to do what? Go work on some offices? Because most PC devs wouldn't be able to transition to consoles

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ogvampire

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#304 ogvampire
Member since 2008 • 9210 Posts

[QUOTE="The_Game21x"]

And people say the 360's piracy problems are close to the PC's...

AdrianWerner

They aren't. However 360 has it's own problem that's just as bad for publishers: used games

not this again...

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GeneralShowzer

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#305 GeneralShowzer
Member since 2010 • 11598 Posts
It's incredible how much hate filled ignorant comments will spawn because of posting a stupid misinformation. Well done mods.
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Teuf_

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#306 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

It's incredible how much hate filled ignorant comments will spawn because of posting a stupid misinformation. Well done mods.GeneralShowzer


Don't worry. In the future, I will get Wired and other sites to let you fact-check their articles before they post them. ;)

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AdrianWerner

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#307 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="The_Game21x"]

And people say the 360's piracy problems are close to the PC's...

ogvampire

They aren't. However 360 has it's own problem that's just as bad for publishers: used games

not this again...

Yes, because "omg! teh pc piracy" is much fresher topic that we didn't hear before ;)

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DefJeff

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#308 DefJeff
Member since 2010 • 27 Posts
Publishers love posting piracy numbers when a game sells poorly. There is a problem with this, however: There's no way to factually state that those pirated copies would have been sales.
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lowe0

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#309 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts

Because most PC devs wouldn't be able to transition to consoles

AdrianWerner
I'd love to see some proof to back up that assertion.
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The-Mosher

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#310 The-Mosher
Member since 2009 • 1885 Posts

Hey, I'm one of those 290,000 who got it legally! :D

But, really, its sad to hear about no Dedicated Servers and no Mod Tools, but, IMO, its still a great game without those and, IMO (again), it deserves more sales (on the PC at least).

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ZoomZoom2490

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#311 ZoomZoom2490
Member since 2008 • 3943 Posts

the pirated version can also be played online?

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rollermint

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#312 rollermint
Member since 2010 • 632 Posts
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Because most PC devs wouldn't be able to transition to consoles

lowe0
I'd love to see some proof to back up that assertion.

Its not hard to imagine. The cost of making a console game is much more compared to a pc game brcause of licensing fees. Small time indie companies and dev studios generally can't afford to put their game on the consoles.
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lowe0

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#313 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts
[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Because most PC devs wouldn't be able to transition to consoles

rollermint
I'd love to see some proof to back up that assertion.

Its not hard to imagine. The cost of making a console game is much more compared to a pc game brcause of licensing fees. Small time indie companies and dev studios generally can't afford to put their game on the consoles.

Then you should have no trouble imagining up a source with some hard data.
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Bikouchu35

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#314 Bikouchu35
Member since 2009 • 8344 Posts

the pirated version can also be played online?

ZoomZoom2490

Well is pretty pointless to pirate, a two hour campaign with random time challenge fillers.

So apparently so, with mucho haxors.

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shakmaster13

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#315 shakmaster13
Member since 2007 • 7138 Posts
I call BS on the numbers, but if they aren't I think it is a clear message because pirates/hackers get to play online with legitimate buyers when there aren't any dedicated servers. IW.net was a disaster. Also, consolites should be more worried with used game sales. Only difference between that and torrents is that there exists a middleman.
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lowe0

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#316 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts
Also, consolites should be more worried with used game sales. Only difference between that and torrents is that there exists a middleman.shakmaster13
Really? You don't think there's one other, teensy-weensy difference? The fact that one's legal?
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rollermint

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#317 rollermint
Member since 2010 • 632 Posts

[QUOTE="rollermint"][QUOTE="lowe0"]I'd love to see some proof to back up that assertion.lowe0
Its not hard to imagine. The cost of making a console game is much more compared to a pc game brcause of licensing fees. Small time indie companies and dev studios generally can't afford to put their game on the consoles.

Then you should have no trouble imagining up a source with some hard data.

Cost of Console Game generally around 10-30 million. (figure in 2006, btw)

Second source.

Safe to say, its getting higher.

Royalties, licensing, higher distribution costs (DD hasnt really hit the console scene), strict technical guidelines etc etc

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Sins of a Solar Empire costs less than a million to make.

This is a pretty nice read, for the situation surrounding small time developers.

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markop2003

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#318 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]Also...stumbled across this earlier http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/10/one-quarter-of-humble-indie-bundle-downloads-were-pirated/

That dosn't make any sense, they could have just payed a penny for the games. Though i just did a search on a couple trackers and the downloads and the leachers and seeders only seems to be a couple 100, also note that looking at some of the comments some people were downloading as they can't pay as paypal does not allow you to from all nations and there's limitations on even some developed nations like Ireland and Denmark.
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Teuf_

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#319 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

rollermint



The cost of developing any game is pretty directly tied to the amount and quality of the assets needed. If an indie developer wants big 3D levels with varying environments, it's going to cost them big time regardless of what platform they target. If they only need a few models or sprites and some backgrounds, then it's a much different story. Most console games are the former rather than the latter, so it's pretty obvious why they cost more to make.

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rollermint

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#320 rollermint
Member since 2010 • 632 Posts

[QUOTE="rollermint"]

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Teufelhuhn



The cost of developing any game is pretty directly tied to the amount and quality of the assets needed. If an indie developer wants big 3D levels with varying environments, it's going to cost them big time regardless of what platform they target. If they only need a few models or sprites and some backgrounds, then it's a much different story. Most console games are the former rather than the latter, so it's pretty obvious why they cost more to make.

Indeed, developing a high-end PC game are expensive but its undeniable that royalties, licensing and distribution are going to significantly affect the costs as well. All of which are either non-existent or much cheaper on the PC platform, which is why the indie scene is booming on the PC.

But the PC has always been fertile for niche markets, heck it started off that way and will likely continue to be so.

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lowe0

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#321 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="rollermint"] Its not hard to imagine. The cost of making a console game is much more compared to a pc game brcause of licensing fees. Small time indie companies and dev studios generally can't afford to put their game on the consoles.rollermint

Then you should have no trouble imagining up a source with some hard data.

Cost of Console Game generally around 10-30 million. (figure in 2006, btw)

Second source.

Safe to say, its getting higher.

Royalties, licensing, higher distribution costs (DD hasnt really hit the console scene), strict technical guidelines etc etc

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Sins of a Solar Empire costs less than a million to make.

This is a pretty nice read, for the situation surrounding small time developers.

If they don't have an idea they can pitch to a publisher for a AAA title, there's always Xbox Live Arcade or PSN. If they're willing to go PS3 exclusive, they can even pitch their concept to the Sony Pub Fund. Independent devs on PC appear to have no trouble getting to consoles as well - as a couple examples, Introversion is on XBLA with Darwinia+, and Telltale has Sam & Max 3 on PSN. Conversely, AAA development on PC isn't cheap either. In the end, if you want to make a AAA title, you have to go multiplat, and that means you'd better have an established track record.
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Makari

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#322 Makari
Member since 2003 • 15250 Posts
Like the article says, I think this is mainly a regional thing. It sure as hell seems PC gaming is dying a bit in the U.S., while it may be booming in other parts of the world. Its all relative I suppose.h575309
One of the places I used to work at spent a ton of resources on analytics related to game piracy - IIRC some gigantic percentage of online piracy was done in the US and western Europe in particular - basically the places where internet connections were decent. It was pretty much nil in the rest of the world (including Japan, even though they had the broadband connections to match). There was a lot of piracy in South America and Asia, but it was largely of the 'making fake discs and selling them on the street/in a store' variety, where they were able to shut down factories dedicated to making copies of pirated games. I don't remember what was up in eastern Europe, but way earlier in the decade there was a lot of bailing out of the region due to leaks via the physical corporate presence. It's definitely gotten better since then, helped a bit by Russia cracking down so hard on game piracy in a legal sense. But yeah, most of my knowledge is 3-4 years old at this point.
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Dynafrom

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#323 Dynafrom
Member since 2003 • 1027 Posts
[QUOTE="rollermint"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Then you should have no trouble imagining up a source with some hard data.lowe0

Cost of Console Game generally around 10-30 million. (figure in 2006, btw)

Second source.

Safe to say, its getting higher.

Royalties, licensing, higher distribution costs (DD hasnt really hit the console scene), strict technical guidelines etc etc

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Sins of a Solar Empire costs less than a million to make.

This is a pretty nice read, for the situation surrounding small time developers.

If they don't have an idea they can pitch to a publisher for a AAA title, there's always Xbox Live Arcade or PSN. If they're willing to go PS3 exclusive, they can even pitch their concept to the Sony Pub Fund. Independent devs on PC appear to have no trouble getting to consoles as well - as a couple examples, Introversion is on XBLA with Darwinia+, and Telltale has Sam & Max 3 on PSN. Conversely, AAA development on PC isn't cheap either. In the end, if you want to make a AAA title, you have to go multiplat, and that means you'd better have an established track record.

What matters in the sake of this argument is that PC development is cheaper. The dev platform for both the X360 and PS3 don't come free, whereas DX libraries are easily avail.
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Respawn-d

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#324 Respawn-d
Member since 2010 • 2936 Posts

Meh deving for pc is like giving your games away.

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Einhanderkiller

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#325 Einhanderkiller
Member since 2003 • 13259 Posts
I've seen 150,000-200,000 concurrent players at once on IW.net, so the numbers sold must be much higher than 290,000.
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Guybrush_3

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#326 Guybrush_3
Member since 2008 • 8308 Posts

I've seen 150,000-200,000 concurrent players at once on IW.net, so the numbers sold must be much higher than 290,000.Einhanderkiller

It is. DD is not counted in those numbers and most PC gamers don't buy retail copies anymore.

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_Pedro_

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#327 _Pedro_
Member since 2004 • 6829 Posts

290,000? 4,000,000? Those numbers seem awfully low for the biggest release of the year.

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locopatho

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#328 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts
[QUOTE="shakmaster13"]I call BS on the numbers, but if they aren't I think it is a clear message because pirates/hackers get to play online with legitimate buyers when there aren't any dedicated servers. IW.net was a disaster. Also, consolites should be more worried with used game sales. Only difference between that and torrents is that there exists a middleman.

100% wrong. A game is sold NEW in the shop, and the developer gets paid. After that, the developer should have no say or interest in what happens to it. What does it matter if my game which I bough NEW is sold on to my brother, a friend, or Gamestop? Again, it's a *single copy* of the game that they were PAID for. Only one person can use that one copy, it makes 0 difference whether that person is me or someone else. Piracy = millions of people copy pasting the game files WITHOUT PAYING. If you don't think there is a difference I don't know what to tell you...
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Barbariser

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#329 Barbariser
Member since 2009 • 6785 Posts

[QUOTE="shakmaster13"]I call BS on the numbers, but if they aren't I think it is a clear message because pirates/hackers get to play online with legitimate buyers when there aren't any dedicated servers. IW.net was a disaster. Also, consolites should be more worried with used game sales. Only difference between that and torrents is that there exists a middleman.locopatho
100% wrong. A game is sold NEW in the shop, and the developer gets paid. After that, the developer should have no say or interest in what happens to it. What does it matter if my game which I bough NEW is sold on to my brother, a friend, or Gamestop? Again, it's a *single copy* of the game that they were PAID for. Only one person can use that one copy, it makes 0 difference whether that person is me or someone else. Piracy = millions of people copy pasting the game files WITHOUT PAYING. If you don't think there is a difference I don't know what to tell you...

You obviously don't understand why a used copy's considered by developers to be a bad thing. To them it doesn't matter whether or not people pay for the copy... it's whether or not the money goes to the company responsible for the game. A used copy only produces profit for the retailer.

To a publisher or developer, piracy (downloading a copy) and buying used copies are effectively the same thing: another person playing the game without paying them for it. If there is any other difference between the two it is utterly immaterial to the developer... other than the fact that they can complain about piracy but they can't about used copies, because used copies are legal.

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locopatho

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#330 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts

[QUOTE="locopatho"][QUOTE="shakmaster13"]I call BS on the numbers, but if they aren't I think it is a clear message because pirates/hackers get to play online with legitimate buyers when there aren't any dedicated servers. IW.net was a disaster. Also, consolites should be more worried with used game sales. Only difference between that and torrents is that there exists a middleman.Barbariser

100% wrong. A game is sold NEW in the shop, and the developer gets paid. After that, the developer should have no say or interest in what happens to it. What does it matter if my game which I bough NEW is sold on to my brother, a friend, or Gamestop? Again, it's a *single copy* of the game that they were PAID for. Only one person can use that one copy, it makes 0 difference whether that person is me or someone else. Piracy = millions of people copy pasting the game files WITHOUT PAYING. If you don't think there is a difference I don't know what to tell you...

You obviously don't understand why a used copy's considered by developers to be a bad thing. To them it doesn't matter whether or not people pay for the copy... it's whether or not the money goes to the company responsible for the game. A used copy only produces profit for the retailer.

To a publisher or developer, piracy (downloading a copy) and buying used copies are effectively the same thing: another person playing the game without paying them for it. If there is any other difference between the two it is utterly immaterial to the developer... other than the fact that they can complain about piracy but they can't about used copies, because used copies are legal.

Well sure, I know they'd love us all to have to buy a new copy. But I'm just saying, they were PAID for that used copy at one point, and never paid for the copies people pirate. When gamers try say they are the same, that's disgraceful imo :(
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ronvalencia

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#331 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="rollermint"]

Cost of Console Game generally around 10-30 million. (figure in 2006, btw)

Second source.

Safe to say, its getting higher.

Royalties, licensing, higher distribution costs (DD hasnt really hit the console scene), strict technical guidelines etc etc

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Sins of a Solar Empire costs less than a million to make.

This is a pretty nice read, for the situation surrounding small time developers.

Dynafrom

If they don't have an idea they can pitch to a publisher for a AAA title, there's always Xbox Live Arcade or PSN. If they're willing to go PS3 exclusive, they can even pitch their concept to the Sony Pub Fund. Independent devs on PC appear to have no trouble getting to consoles as well - as a couple examples, Introversion is on XBLA with Darwinia+, and Telltale has Sam & Max 3 on PSN. Conversely, AAA development on PC isn't cheap either. In the end, if you want to make a AAA title, you have to go multiplat, and that means you'd better have an established track record.

What matters in the sake of this argument is that PC development is cheaper. The dev platform for both the X360 and PS3 don't come free, whereas DX libraries are easily avail.

MS's XNA dev tool chain runs on the PC.

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Barbariser

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#332 Barbariser
Member since 2009 • 6785 Posts

Well sure, I know they'd love us all to have to buy a new copy. But I'm just saying, they were PAID for that used copy at one point, and never paid for the copies people pirate. When gamers try say they are the same, that's disgraceful imo :(locopatho

Of course it's not the same thing, but that doesn't mean its not a problem. It has a detrimental effect on the market because the producers don't earn any money of their work whenever it happens.

You can BUY a pirated copy as well (but Torrents are more popular because they're free) - that doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable, just like the fact that you pay for used copies doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable.

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locopatho

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#333 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts

[QUOTE="locopatho"] Well sure, I know they'd love us all to have to buy a new copy. But I'm just saying, they were PAID for that used copy at one point, and never paid for the copies people pirate. When gamers try say they are the same, that's disgraceful imo :(Barbariser

Of course it's not the same thing, but that doesn't mean its not a problem. It has a detrimental effect on the market because the producers don't earn any money of their work whenever it happens.

You can BUY a pirated copy as well (but Torrents are more popular because they're free) - that doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable, just like the fact that you pay for used copies doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable.

But it's silly. Do they want to be paid every time a copy changes hands? Should I have to pay Toyota a fee if I sell on my car? That's not how products work! You buy them and can sell them on if you want. Devs whining about it need to shut up. Getting their work stolen by pirates is a legitimate complaint though.
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AdrianWerner

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#334 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Because most PC devs wouldn't be able to transition to consoles

lowe0

I'd love to see some proof to back up that assertion.

You think most teams would able to suddenly grow 3-5 times and completely switch genres? Heck...most of them even if they somehow miracously managed to achieve that still would have troubles finding publishers. In case you haven't noticed...independent developers (I don't mean just indie, just generally those who aren't owned by publishers) are close to extinct on consoles.

Not to mention console gaming isn't anywhere near big enough to support such huge influx of develoers. Already making profit can be very hard, imagine if suddenly you have couple hundreds more competitors

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AdrianWerner

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#335 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

[QUOTE="rollermint"]

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Teufelhuhn



The cost of developing any game is pretty directly tied to the amount and quality of the assets needed. If an indie developer wants big 3D levels with varying environments, it's going to cost them big time regardless of what platform they target. If they only need a few models or sprites and some backgrounds, then it's a much different story. Most console games are the former rather than the latter, so it's pretty obvious why they cost more to make.

It's not just that. Even developing the same quality of assets is cheaper on PC. It can handle more, so there's less work optimizing the assets, plus console games have shorter dev cycles...to make huge games in short time you need huge teams and the bigger the team gets the less efficent it works.

Of course there are also other factors, console gamers just generally expect higher production values than pcgamers

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AdrianWerner

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#336 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

they don't have an idea they can pitch to a publisher for a AAA title, there's always Xbox Live Arcade or PSN. If they're willing to go PS3 exclusive, they can even pitch their concept to the Sony Pub Fund. Independent devs on PC appear to have no trouble getting to consoles as well - as a couple examples, Introversion is on XBLA with Darwinia+, and Telltale has Sam & Max 3 on PSN. lowe0
Nope. XBLA/PSN situation is exact replica of retail one, only on smaller scales. Once again most pc indie devs are too small to make it to XBLA and PSN. The ones that do are the absolute giants of pc indie scene. And there they have to compete with huge publishers who create dedicated teams for handling XBLA qualit of games.

Of course I;m talking only about indie devs. Unless you're suggesting normal pc devs who make retail games should switch to XBLA, which means they would be forced to fire most workers, as they might be too small for console retail, but they're way too big for XBLA and PSN.

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Barbariser

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#337 Barbariser
Member since 2009 • 6785 Posts

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

[QUOTE="locopatho"] Well sure, I know they'd love us all to have to buy a new copy. But I'm just saying, they were PAID for that used copy at one point, and never paid for the copies people pirate. When gamers try say they are the same, that's disgraceful imo :(locopatho

Of course it's not the same thing, but that doesn't mean its not a problem. It has a detrimental effect on the market because the producers don't earn any money of their work whenever it happens.

You can BUY a pirated copy as well (but Torrents are more popular because they're free) - that doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable, just like the fact that you pay for used copies doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable.

But it's silly. Do they want to be paid every time a copy changes hands? Should I have to pay Toyota a fee if I sell on my car? That's not how products work! You buy them and can sell them on if you want. Devs whining about it need to shut up. Getting their work stolen by pirates is a legitimate complaint though.

Do you have to keep bringing up irrelevant information? My point is that either way, someone new gets to play the game while the developer doesn't earn anything for it. It doesn't matter how legal they are or how moral/amoral they are or whatever, the fact remains that the effect is identical and that's the only thing relevant here.

Oh, and for your information media piracy is nothing more than the illegal copying of files. Buying a used copy is pretty much the same thing except for one detail - it entails the legal copying of files. If you think it's alright not to pay a developer for buying a used copy then you should also think its alright not to pay a developer for downloading a cracked copy, since of course your reasoning is that developers should not have any rights at all to other peoples' copies of their products :|

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Brownesque

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#338 Brownesque
Member since 2005 • 5660 Posts

[QUOTE="rollermint"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"] Then you should have no trouble imagining up a source with some hard data.lowe0

Cost of Console Game generally around 10-30 million. (figure in 2006, btw)

Second source.

Safe to say, its getting higher.

Royalties, licensing, higher distribution costs (DD hasnt really hit the console scene), strict technical guidelines etc etc

Developing an indie game on PC essentially cost nothing, other than the usual overhead costs (hardware, office/furniture, servers).

Sins of a Solar Empire costs less than a million to make.

This is a pretty nice read, for the situation surrounding small time developers.

If they don't have an idea they can pitch to a publisher for a AAA title, there's always Xbox Live Arcade or PSN. If they're willing to go PS3 exclusive, they can even pitch their concept to the Sony Pub Fund. Independent devs on PC appear to have no trouble getting to consoles as well - as a couple examples, Introversion is on XBLA with Darwinia+, and Telltale has Sam & Max 3 on PSN.

Conversely, AAA development on PC isn't cheap either. In the end, if you want to make a AAA title, you have to go multiplat, and that means you'd better have an established track record.

http://kotaku.com/359668/microsoft-cuts-indie-royalties-in-half

65% royalties? What the ****!? Apparently the best Microsoft could do was 30%.

This link however includes a rebuttal to that article with quotes from developers suggesting a 30% royalty rate.

Link

Compared to:

http://www.totalvideogames.com/Red-Orchestra-Ostfront-41-45/news/Tripwire-Interactive-Defends-Steam-14652.html

Here's Tripwire complaining that they didn't release their software via a brick-and-mortar publisher due to the fact that they had OBSCENE royalty rates of....15 percent. Lol. This is apparently just to get the game into the distribution phase, as the TW rep notes, they self-funded development (from a mod making competition they won). It is pretty ridiculous. So evidently Steam has very agreeable royalty rates for Indie publishers.

Not sure about Sony. I don't like the idea, though.

Anyway, it's quite plain that developers on Xbox Live absolutely are not getting a better deal than developers going with brick-and-mortar publishers and they are not even within the same galaxy of financing that you can receive on Steam. Period.

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locopatho

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#339 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts

Do you have to keep bringing up irrelevant information? My point is that either way, someone new gets to play the game while the developer doesn't earn anything for it. It doesn't matter how legal they are or how moral/amoral they are or whatever, the fact remains that the effect is identical and that's the only thing relevant here.

Oh, and for your information media piracy is nothing more than the illegal copying of files. Buying a used copy is pretty much the same thing except for one detail - it entails the legal copying of files. If you think it's alright not to pay a developer for buying a used copy then you should also think its alright not to pay a developer for downloading a cracked copy, since of course your reasoning is that developers should not have any rights at all to other peoples' copies of their products :|

Barbariser

It's not irrelevant, and it's not the same.Hypothetical:

Let's say a dev creates a game and only releases one copy. If I buy that game new I have paid the developer for that one copy. I enjoy my copy, dev has been paid. All is well. I sell that copy on to my brother, no harm. There is still one copy on the market, there is still only one person enjoying it, the dev has still been paid for their one copy.

Piracy is different. Instead of one copy, one person enjoying the game at any time, and one paycheck for the dev, it's potentially infinite copies(how many times can ya ctrl c, ctrl v?), infinite people enjoying the game, and no money for the dev.

Edit: Buying used is not a copy of a game, it's an original!

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Metalscarz

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#340 Metalscarz
Member since 2004 • 1019 Posts

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

[QUOTE="locopatho"] Well sure, I know they'd love us all to have to buy a new copy. But I'm just saying, they were PAID for that used copy at one point, and never paid for the copies people pirate. When gamers try say they are the same, that's disgraceful imo :(locopatho

Of course it's not the same thing, but that doesn't mean its not a problem. It has a detrimental effect on the market because the producers don't earn any money of their work whenever it happens.

You can BUY a pirated copy as well (but Torrents are more popular because they're free) - that doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable, just like the fact that you pay for used copies doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable.

But it's silly. Do they want to be paid every time a copy changes hands? Should I have to pay Toyota a fee if I sell on my car? That's not how products work! You buy them and can sell them on if you want. Devs whining about it need to shut up. Getting their work stolen by pirates is a legitimate complaint though.

Would you buy your brand new Toyota, sell it in less then a month for half price (or less), and let the dealership sell it again for 95% face value? Within days used copies of big name games begin to show up on shelves, and many people who were going to purchase the game new, will now save that $5.

This is a uniqe situation to the games industry. Most big games sell the lions share at launch as well so having a used game available within days is perceived as a big problem by the publishers and developers who on top of making the games desire maximum profit. Like any other business.

Even used DVD's don't usually show up that soon, and many more people buy movies then games. Same with books, and both already have a smaller initial cost, making buying new more appealing already.

You'd better believe as well that if the major movie studios, book publishers, pottery makers, cars, whatever could find a legal way to recoup costs on resales, they would have done it already.

This is why we are seeing incentives to buy games new like free DLC, or the more intrusive EA Sports Pass. No reasonable developer would assertain that used games should/would be made illegal. If they thought like that they would be a DD on PC only kind of dev.

What some developers have suggested is a month long "grace" period that would put a stop to used games appearing on retail shelves within a month of the street date.

Note that wouldn't stop you from selling to your friends etc. But you alone selling your game or lending it out isn't perceived to cost the industry millions of dollars a year. Gamestop obtaining copies of a newly released game, at less then the wholesale cost and turning it around to sell at almost full price with a HUGE profit margin is.

Now I'm not saying I like any of this rhetoric, but I'd have to be naive to not understand why game developers/publishers would see it as a problem. Especially in an uncertain time for devs, living from crazy expensive game to the next.

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locopatho

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#341 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts

[QUOTE="locopatho"][QUOTE="Barbariser"]

Of course it's not the same thing, but that doesn't mean its not a problem. It has a detrimental effect on the market because the producers don't earn any money of their work whenever it happens.

You can BUY a pirated copy as well (but Torrents are more popular because they're free) - that doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable, just like the fact that you pay for used copies doesn't negate the fact that its economic effect is undesirable.

Metalscarz

But it's silly. Do they want to be paid every time a copy changes hands? Should I have to pay Toyota a fee if I sell on my car? That's not how products work! You buy them and can sell them on if you want. Devs whining about it need to shut up. Getting their work stolen by pirates is a legitimate complaint though.

Would you buy your brand new Toyota, sell it in less then a month for half price (or less), and let the dealership sell it again for 95% face value? Within days used copies of big name games begin to show up on shelves, and many people who were going to purchase the game new, will now save that $5.

This is a uniqe situation to the games industry. Most big games sell the lions share at launch as well so having a used game available within days is perceived as a big problem by the publishers and developers who on top of making the games desire maximum profit. Like any other business.

Even used DVD's don't usually show up that soon, and many more people buy movies then games. Same with books, and both already have a smaller initial cost, making buying new more appealing already.

You'd better believe as well that if the major movie studios, book publishers, pottery makers, cars, whatever could find a legal way to recoup costs on resales, they would have done it already.

This is why we are seeing incentives to buy games new like free DLC, or the more intrusive EA Sports Pass. No reasonable developer would assertain that used games should/would be made illegal. If they thought like that they would be a DD on PC only kind of dev.

What some developers have suggested is a month long "grace" period that would put a stop to used games appearing on retail shelves within a month of the street date.

Note that wouldn't stop you from selling to your friends etc. But you alone selling your game or lending it out isn't perceived to cost the industry millions of dollars a year. Gamestop obtaining copies of a newly released game, at less then the wholesale cost and turning it around to sell at almost full price with a HUGE profit margin is.

Now I'm not saying I like any of this rhetoric, but I'd have to be naive to not understand why game developers/publishers would see it as a problem. Especially in an uncertain time for devs, living from crazy expensive game to the next.

That does make sense. I agree it's ridiculous that Gamestop pay peanuts for games and sell them on for massive profits, but it's the consumers that are accepting this. I really don't think it can be compared to piracy. Maybe they should ask themselves why their $60 game has been traded back in after less than a month?
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Metalscarz

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#342 Metalscarz
Member since 2004 • 1019 Posts

[QUOTE="Metalscarz"]

[QUOTE="locopatho"] But it's silly. Do they want to be paid every time a copy changes hands? Should I have to pay Toyota a fee if I sell on my car? That's not how products work! You buy them and can sell them on if you want. Devs whining about it need to shut up. Getting their work stolen by pirates is a legitimate complaint though.locopatho

Would you buy your brand new Toyota, sell it in less then a month for half price (or less), and let the dealership sell it again for 95% face value? Within days used copies of big name games begin to show up on shelves, and many people who were going to purchase the game new, will now save that $5.

This is a uniqe situation to the games industry. Most big games sell the lions share at launch as well so having a used game available within days is perceived as a big problem by the publishers and developers who on top of making the games desire maximum profit. Like any other business.

Even used DVD's don't usually show up that soon, and many more people buy movies then games. Same with books, and both already have a smaller initial cost, making buying new more appealing already.

You'd better believe as well that if the major movie studios, book publishers, pottery makers, cars, whatever could find a legal way to recoup costs on resales, they would have done it already.

This is why we are seeing incentives to buy games new like free DLC, or the more intrusive EA Sports Pass. No reasonable developer would assertain that used games should/would be made illegal. If they thought like that they would be a DD on PC only kind of dev.

What some developers have suggested is a month long "grace" period that would put a stop to used games appearing on retail shelves within a month of the street date.

Note that wouldn't stop you from selling to your friends etc. But you alone selling your game or lending it out isn't perceived to cost the industry millions of dollars a year. Gamestop obtaining copies of a newly released game, at less then the wholesale cost and turning it around to sell at almost full price with a HUGE profit margin is.

Now I'm not saying I like any of this rhetoric, but I'd have to be naive to not understand why game developers/publishers would see it as a problem. Especially in an uncertain time for devs, living from crazy expensive game to the next.

That does make sense. I agree it's ridiculous that Gamestop pay peanuts for games and sell them on for massive profits, but it's the consumers that are accepting this. I really don't think it can be compared to piracy. Maybe they should ask themselves why their $60 game has been traded back in after less than a month?

Also a good question.

However despite game quality there is always some people who will have the newest game, beat it and trade it within days. Even a 20 hour single player campaign can be beaten within days, sometimes one, by people with nothing better to do who then trade it towards the next "fix".

You are correct that in the sense of morality that piracy and used games sales are different. But from the publishers perspective they are not. Both offer them no money while people get to play the games.

Not to mention with all the attention on consoles at the moment, it shouldn't be surprising that used games have become a target/scapegoat. Like piracy.

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JLF1

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#343 JLF1
Member since 2005 • 8263 Posts

As a PC gamer this actually scares me.

More and more publishers are moving slowly away from big PC exclusive games.

Sure, you can argue that PC gaming is as healthy as ever with millions of people playing PC games every day. Look at Telltale, GSC Game World, Paradox Interactive etc etc are all doing great right now.

Hell, the Humble Indie Games sales was a huge success (I bought it twice for $5 both times).

These are small developers though, developers that can survive with a smaller income. I'm worried that a day will come when Sega refuses to develop the next Total War as a PC exclusive or at all. Or that Activision, EA and Ubisoft simply won't release PC ports of their big AAA games. EA almost didn't do it with Dead Space 2.

-

I'm not suggesting that this will happen but I'm worried that it might.

I want a future were PC games, Console games and Handheld games can co-exist and share their games (not all of the of course but the ones that would work). I like the fact that Telltale is releasing their games on all consoles, PC and the IPad and they might even to something with the PSP (was in a recent interview, I dont really have the strengt to search for it and it was only a small comment about the future but still).

I hope more Japanese developers and publisher move to the PC as those are the games I would like more of. Especially genres that the Japanese developers are too worried about releasing on the consoles or handhelds in the west as they are too small for those markets in the west. Japanese Adventure games and Shmups comes to mind. They would be perfect for Steam.



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devious742

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#344 devious742
Member since 2003 • 3924 Posts

As a PC gamer this actually scares me.

More and more publishers are moving slowly away from big PC exclusive games.

Sure, you can argue that PC gaming is as healthy as ever with millions of people playing PC games every day. Look at Telltale, GSC Game World, Paradox Interactive etc etc are all doing great right now.

Hell, the Humble Indie Games sales was a huge success (I bought it twice for $5 both times).

These are small developers though, developers that can survive with a smaller income. I'm worried that a day will come when Sega refuses to develop the next Total War as a PC exclusive or at all. Or that Activision, EA and Ubisoft simply won't release PC ports of their big AAA games. EA almost didn't do it with Dead Space 2.

-

I'm not suggesting that this will happen but I'm worried that it might.

I want a future were PC games, Console games and Handheld games can co-exist and share their games (not all of the of course but the ones that would work). I like the fact that Telltale is releasing their games on all consoles, PC and the IPad and they might even to something with the PSP (was in a recent interview, I dont really have the strengt to search for it and it was only a small comment about the future but still).

I hope more Japanese developers and publisher move to the PC as those are the games I would like more of. Especially genres that the Japanese developers are too worried about releasing on the consoles or handhelds in the west as they are too small for those markets in the west. Japanese Adventure games and Shmups comes to mind. They would be perfect for Steam.



JLF1

whenever I read a post like this " more devs are abandoning pc" I dont even reply anymore I just post this gold nugget of info



Honestly people are so used to the idea that PC gaming is in trouble that they never question it, it's just a given, a default position. But the moment I suggest console gaming isn't too healthy these days; they freak out. What? Console gaming in trouble? Ha! The idea is ludicrous to them. They don't need any evidence to declare PC gaming dead, but they will completely disregard all the evidence you present the console market isn't doing too good; because they reject the idea outright.

This is reflected in all their arguments, they are completely uninterested in looking at anything that suggests something is wrong with console gaming, to the point that they make a fool of themselves with some of their arguments.

Take for instance this line we hear all too often"PC developers fleeing to consoles". Anyone with eyes would recognise the cross platform orientation of this generation, they will recognise a significant number of games are going cross platform on both console and PC. But some people are just so unable to look a little closer to home they actually only note the PC games going cross platform, its ridiculous and I don't know why this highly flawed argument is perpetuated on the console end to this day.

When I look at the console market today I see multi billion dollar companies unable to attract exclusive 3rd party development; were as a platform that offers them no financial incentives can. I see supposedly popular platforms having to pay game developers to remain exclusive while PC takes the lead in exclusives. I see consoles being treated like a cross platform dumping ground, as shown by the exclusive to cross platform ratio, an accusation that still gets used against PC despite it being truer about consoles. I see console companies having to pay for exclusive content in cross platform games; while some developers bring PC exclusive benefits in their games without being paid a penny.

People try their very best to drag the image of PC gaming through the muck; and yet time and time again I see this supposedly dying platform stands head and shoulders above the multi billion dollar investments consoles are getting. What are you going to say? What could any of you possibly say to me that is going to diminish how I view my platform when I see the console business model falling apart right in front of me? Every criticism out there doesn't change what is in fact going on. You can talk about piracy and sales and all the doom preaching all you want, you can even pull the preference card and try to pass it off as everyones opinion,PC is still here and it is out performing consoles in developer support.

What more is there to say?AnnoyedDragon wrote

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JLF1

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#345 JLF1
Member since 2005 • 8263 Posts




whenever I read a post like this " more devs are abandoning pc" I dont even reply anymore I just post this gold nugget of info

devious742



Well, can you mention an upcoming high budget PC exclusive that isn't from an already established IP?

Were is the next Sims? No, not Sims 4 but a new IP that could be just as big. Spore was basically the last one I can remember and that was in 2008 and wasn't nearly as big as EA hoped.

I'm not suggesting that console exclusives are thriving either. That would be a lie. I will however argue that a 360 game going the to PS3 isn't really going to hurt the game. It can really hurt a PC game though. Look at Id's Rage. it looked amazing until it went to the consoles.

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devious742

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#346 devious742
Member since 2003 • 3924 Posts

[QUOTE="devious742"]




whenever I read a post like this " more devs are abandoning pc" I dont even reply anymore I just post this gold nugget of info

JLF1



Well, can you mention an upcoming high budget PC exclusive that isn't from an already established IP?

Were is the next Sims? No, not Sims 4 but a new IP that could be just as big. Spore was basically the last one I can remember and that was in 2008 and wasn't nearly as big as EA hoped.

I'm not suggesting that console exclusives are thriving either. That would be a lie. I will however argue that a 360 game going the to PS3 isn't really going to hurt the game. It can really hurt a PC game though. Look at Id's Rage. it looked amazing until it went to the consoles.

cant the same be said about consoles.. whats the next big consoles exclusive that isn't from an already established IP?

Halo reach? Mass effect 3? Gears3? GT5? FF6? Fable 3? SMG2?

I dont really think that a pc game going to consoles would hurt it.. as long as they keep the pc game tailored to that platform.. for example a thread called

PC gamers...would DIABLO 3 to consoles anger or sadden you?

If you read most of the comments from pc gamers... you will notice they will not care as long as they dont "dumb it down" **please dont think im being a elitist..I just dont know what other word to use:P*

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Mckenna1845

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#347 Mckenna1845
Member since 2005 • 4410 Posts

cant the same be said about consoles.. whats the next big consoles exclusive that isn't from an already established IP?

Halo reach? Mass effect 3? Gears3? GT5? FF6? Fable 3? SMG2?

I dont really think that a pc game going to consoles would hurt it.. as long as they keep the pc game tailored to that platform.. for example a thread called

PC gamers...would DIABLO 3 to consoles anger or sadden you?

If you read most of the comments from pc gamers... you will notice they will not care as long as they dont "dumb it down" **please dont think im being a elitist..I just dont know what other word to use:P*

devious742

all of them games you listed aside from gears 3 and mass effect (which is on pc), are all first party and funded by the console company, which actually proves annoyed dragons point even more.

it is true devs aren't fleeing from pc gamig at all, it's just that development is more expensive so "big games" are multplatform for both console and pc.

it's also true that pc gets more dev support regardless of whether they are indie devs or not.

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pc-ps360

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#348 pc-ps360
Member since 2010 • 3462 Posts

And people say the 360's piracy problems are close to the PC's...

The_Game21x

it is. i know a place that sells multi region modded 360s that has all arcade games and can run all region xbox games not only that it can run burned games. u can simply download games from torretn and burn them and play them on the xbox. but u cannot connect this system online . xbox 360 shines big time online so any1 buying modded system will miss out big

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pc-ps360

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#349 pc-ps360
Member since 2010 • 3462 Posts

other than god of war 3 (1 and 2 can be played on ps2 pc emulators) ninja gaiden series and bayonetta the pc has everything.

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locopatho

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#350 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts

other than god of war 3 (1 and 2 can be played on ps2 pc emulators) ninja gaiden series and bayonetta the pc has everything.

pc-ps360
Have fun playing Super Street Fighter :P