The FALLOUT 3 Reality Thread

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subrosian

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#1 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

1. Is this an official thread?

"Official" is a word people stick in the title of a hype thread, hoping to get stickied, and thus remove the ability for others to post threads discussing more interesting issues surrounding the particular game in question. As such the world "official" in a non-stickied thread is meaningless. Until a mod makes a thread stickied, there's no such thing as "official".

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2. Why should this thread be used instead of a hype thread?

Hype threads are idiotic because they begin with massive praise and worship of a game. This is done in order to garner readership. Sadly, gaming journalism does this as well. We see endless *praise* of games that have yet to earn that praise. When the actual game is released, the results can vary drastically from what was promised. For example, Hour of Victory received positive previews, yet was a mediocre game.

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3. Why the negativity?

Let's avoid confusing negativity and honesty - there are multiple, nuanced sides to every issue. Often System Wars becomes so caught up in insignificant (and frankly stupid) worries such as "will the PS3 or 360 version have the best graphics" (who cares, most people are going to buy it for whatever system they have), that it completely misses the bigger picture.

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With these things in mind, let's address the real debate here:

Fallout 3 - A Gaming Audience Divided

It's the year 2020, you're a huge fan of (Halo, MGS, Pokemon, etc), and the last game in main series was released a decade ago. The studio that makes your favorite game has long since gone under, and the designers have retired or moved on to careers in other fields. Checking the gaming news, you see a huge announcement - they're making another (Halo, MGS, Pokemon, etc)!

But wait, it's being made by the studio that made (Killzone, Splinter Cell, Digimon, etc)... wtf? The press is going wild, even before footage of the real game is shown, positive previews begin pouring out - journalists, the people you turn to for objective information on gaming, have seemingly turned into rabid fanboys overnight, putting out news stories that could be mistaken for press releases or MySpace blogs.

You turn to the videos, and the lone previews from old fans of the series, hoping for the best. As you read, you see the worst coming to pass - they're not making a bad game, of course, but it looks the things that made (Halo, MGS, Pokemon, etc) special to you are being replaced with things from (Killzone, Splinter Cell, Digimon, etc) and the vision and interpretation of the universe is radically different from the one of your beloved old studio.

Everywhere around you, however, masses of new gamers, unfamiliar with your favorite "old game" are seething - any criticism you make is ignored, and the mantra "it doesn't matter, as long as it's fun" is chanted to drown out cries for respect for the old series, and the need to hold games to a higher standard.

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This is the story of what has happened to Fallout. The year is 2008, the new studio is Bethesda, and the crime is the bastardization of Fallout.

Bethesda's not a bad studio, they're not bad people, they don't intend to make Fallout 3 into a bad game - and yet, in all of their actions, they are creating a game which only vaguely resembles Fallout 1 and 2 - and that fails to capture the elements that made Fallout special.

Many would argue that a game like Fallout 2 could not be created in the modern era of censorship - Fallout was a game series that contained violence, sex, prostitution, infanticide, cannibalism, and genocide. Fallout is a game series that deals starkly with the grim realities of a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

Yet this is what we see in Fallout 3:

Prior to Fallout the world went to war over the diminishing resources, petrol and uranium, "hell bent on controlling the last remaining resources on Earth". That war reduced most of the planet to rubble, as seen in Fallout and Fallout 2. The government went out of their way, spending billions to built vaults under the Earth in order to protect the people from the nuclear war. They also built Power Armor in order to enchance combat ability. Radiation is still heavily felt in both games (i.e. The Glow). Ghouls are humans who have been severely disfigured due to radiaton. Not all super mutants were simpletons. So why is it that in Fallout 3 we have:

  • A town built in the crater of an unexploded nuke? A) How could an unexploded nuke have a crater? B) The population fears nuclear weapons, so why build a town around it?
  • Exploding nuclear cars. A) If the world went to war over sources of nuclear power, why are nuclear cars in such plentiful supply? B) Why hasn't anyone in the entire wasteland used this system as a means to develop? C) Why do they generate a mushroom cloud? D) Why doesn't the explosion destroy the car? E) Why does the radiation disappear almost immediately? F) The cars weren't even ****ing nuclear in the originals. They were all destroyed beyond comprehension.
  • A ****ing phone booth that protects from a nuclear explosion. What. The. ****. If they could build such a thing, what was the purpose of the vaults?!
  • It takes 5 NUKES (!) to kill a Behemoth. So why does it use a car door as a shield?
  • Why can ghouls leap at tremendous speed when they were falling apart in the originals? How can they heal eachother with radiation? How can they zap the player with radiation attacks?
  • Why doesn't intelligence alter my dialogue choices?
  • Again, nuclear power was a thing to be feared in the originals. So what purpose does the Fatman serve?
  • Power Armor negatively impacts the player's abilities.

RobbieH1234

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So what is the problem?

Fallout had a major characteristic - your choices mattered, and the world did not bend to them. You could create a stupid character (one incapable of speaking any languages, due to low intelligence) and they had to grunt and drool their way through the game. You could create a sharpshooter too weak to carry much more than a gun or two and some ammo. You could create a diplomat, and talk your way through the entire game, never firing a single shot or killing a single enemy.

Ultimately it was a game where you could do anything.

When Bethesda went to create Fallout 3, rather than start with the idea of it being an RPG of survival, it became an RPG of combat - a journey in which your character takes defined paths, the enemies scale, a free world is replaced with a pseudo-MMO world of mandatory storyline quests (which may as well say "Story Advancing Quests #27" in the description) and logic / world integrity take a backseat to dumb jokes, combat, and scenarios selected for the "we did a cool thing" factor.

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Fallout 3 wasn't meant to be created as a bad game. And yet, buying Fallout 3 is an act of evil - praising Fallout 3, saying "as long as it's fun" or "we'll wait and see" is evil. It's evil because, rather than choosing to side with good, choosing to set the bar high and demand integrity, we allow Bethesda to put another game in the Vault Dweller's clothing. Before hyping that game, before praising that - ask yourself - would I want my favorite game to be remade by a studio that I hate a decade from now? Do I support the bastardization of clas sic games?

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Nolan16

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#2 Nolan16
Member since 2006 • 4022 Posts
if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..
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BioShockOwnz

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#3 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts
Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.
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subrosian

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#4 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.BioShockOwnz

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

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foxhound_fox

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#5 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Nolan16

I just did and have to say it is probably among the most intelligent things to have ever been written on System Wars.

If it weren't called "Fallout 3" and based off the Fallout canon there would probably not be a single problem with this game from anyone.
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Panzer_Zwei

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#6 Panzer_Zwei
Member since 2006 • 15498 Posts
This is nothing. You should've seen RPG fansites when Brotherhood of Steel was coming out.
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BioShockOwnz

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#7 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.subrosian

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.

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jangojay

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#8 jangojay
Member since 2007 • 4044 Posts
Good post man.
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Pariah_001

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#9 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.BioShockOwnz

Why can't I complain about games as well as all that stuff (especially Obama).

Games are an art form. And as far as I'm concerned, what Bethesda has done is the equivalant of walking into the Louvre and pissing all over the Mona Lisa from the other side of the velvet rope (except, in this case, since Bethesda's aquired the game, they can do it behind the rope if they wanted).

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foxhound_fox

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#10 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.BioShockOwnz

Witnessing the butchering of a game universe isn't very fun.
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BioShockOwnz

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#11 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.Pariah_001

Why can't I complain about games as well as all that stuff (especially Obama).

Games are an art form. And as far as I'm concerned, what Bethesda has done is the equivalant of walking into the Louvre and pissing all over the Mona Lisa from the other side of the velvet rope.

If that's important to you, then go right ahead. Gaming is a hobby for me and nothing more. I don't look for beauty and art in it. I find beauty and art in other things that actually mean something to me and my life.

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strudel420

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#12 strudel420
Member since 2006 • 3687 Posts

if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Nolan16

Call him crazy then cause I just did.

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Panzer_Zwei

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#13 Panzer_Zwei
Member since 2006 • 15498 Posts

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..foxhound_fox

I just did and have to say it is probably among the most intelligent things to have ever been written on System Wars.

If it weren't called "Fallout 3" and based off the Fallout canon there would probably not be a single problem with this game from anyone.

I doubt it, having seen how it was when Brotherhood of Steel was released.

It would just had been seen as the next Fallout game, and it would've had along the same kind of reactions from fans.

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#14 pieatorium
Member since 2008 • 1012 Posts
[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.BioShockOwnz

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.

So you're actually saying your subjective perspective of whats fun is in fact more important than developers making money? Do you ignore "hardcore games" even if they are fun because they weren't created as mainstream cash cows? Do you support cheaply made shovelware because of their high profit potential?

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XturnalS

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#15 XturnalS
Member since 2004 • 5020 Posts

if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Nolan16

just did and it was quite a interesting read @ that. There are some legitimate gripes it seems from people who loved both f1 and 2.

Now I loved Oblivion, in fact i'm prolly gonna play it before I go to sleep, but lord knows that if some one made a MGS5 and it wasn't anything like MGS or differed greatly then I prolly wouldn't like it.

I was hyped for this game but now I'm gonna wait and see what both critics and gamers say about it. It is probably easier for me to play it seeing how I haven't played the first 2. Like bioshock was easier to play "Fresh" not having played SS2.

Or how I saw invisable war as a great game when compared to deus ex 1 its merely a good game.

So while I think alot of these gripes and complaints are with merit, I will still enjoy a game to some extent if it indeed is fun to play I just won't hold it in the same regards of those that did it better or came first.

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BioShockOwnz

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#16 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts
[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.pieatorium

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.

So you're actually saying your subjective perspective of whats fun is in fact more important than developers making money? Do you ignore "hardcore games" even if they are fun because they weren't created as mainstream cash cows? Do you support cheaply made shovelware because of their high profit potential?

I play something if it's fun to me. End of story.

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yellowandmushy

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#17 yellowandmushy
Member since 2006 • 2095 Posts
I support the bastardization of classic games.
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#18 kage_53
Member since 2006 • 12671 Posts
if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Nolan16
I read it and agree with everything Subrosian posted. Fallout 3 is a game that's not being created for the Fallout fans rather its a game for a completely different audience using the Fallout name to try and get those Fallout fans to buy Fallout 3 yet Fallout 3 is nothing more than a shadow of its former self.
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#19 jangojay
Member since 2007 • 4044 Posts
Also another thing we aren't saying it's going to be a bad game. We are merely upset that it will be nothing like the originals yet carry the name and the pretense of being a direct sequel. At least for me that's my grudge. I am still buying it though.
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Zeliard9

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#20 Zeliard9
Member since 2007 • 6030 Posts

Great post, I agree with every word of it.

What's up with the Obama hate from a couple in this thread, btw? You guys are gonna have an unfortunate next 8 years.

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#21 Ibacai
Member since 2006 • 14459 Posts
[QUOTE="pieatorium"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.BioShockOwnz

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.

So you're actually saying your subjective perspective of whats fun is in fact more important than developers making money? Do you ignore "hardcore games" even if they are fun because they weren't created as mainstream cash cows? Do you support cheaply made shovelware because of their high profit potential?

I play something if it's fun to me. End of story.

So what you're saying is that you really just don't like games that are labeled hardcore? You say you want games to go mainstream and hardcore games to be killed off. Are they just not fun to you?
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foxhound_fox

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#22 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
I doubt it, having seen how it was when Brotherhood of Steel was released.

It would just had been seen as the next Fallout game, and it would've had along the same kind of reactions from fans.

Panzer_Zwei

Not really... we have already seen spinoffs for Fallout. Another one probably wouldn't get the same reaction as the previous ones. The fact that this game is a direct sequel to the original numbered series and that Bethesda is destroying the canon is pretty much the reasoning, as I see it, to why the fans are up in arms over what Bethesda is doing/has done.

Even if it were loosely based off of the Fallout universe and wasn't a sequel, I really think everyone, except the most hardcore of hardcore Fallout fans, wouldn't have as much against it.
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subrosian

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#23 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Nolan16

Well, since it's your birthday (if it's not, this counts as an early gift) I'll summarize it for you:

Bethesda's not a bad studio, Fallout 3's not a bad game - but Fallout 3 isn't really "fallout" as we knew it in the Black Isle days. Yet it seems gaming journalism, and many new gamers, are hyping it because "it's Fallout 3" instead of objectively viewing this new game.

We shouldn't do that - we need to view Fallout 3 as it's own game, since it's not a part of the series. Imagine if your favorite game were made by a different studio ten years from now, and was just radically different from what you loved - it would be frustrating, and it would be even more frustrating to see that new game praised because of the old games.

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BioShockOwnz

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#24 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts

So what you're saying is that you really just don't like games that are labeled hardcore? You say you want games to go mainstream and hardcore games to be killed off. Are they just not fun to you?Ibacai

I was more trying to say that a game with a "hardcore" label doesn't define it. I enjoy games that are fun, but the thought of Fallout 3 is a casual game is just wrong. No, games on the Wii, like Wii Sports, those are casual games.

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Mordred19

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#25 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

I don't support game design that insults the intelligence of players and patronizes them. That's about as simple as I can put it.

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Memoryitis

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#26 Memoryitis
Member since 2006 • 2221 Posts

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..subrosian

Well, since it's your birthday (if it's not, this counts as an early gift) I'll summarize it for you:

Bethesda's not a bad studio, Fallout 3's not a bad game - but Fallout 3 isn't really "fallout" as we knew it in the Black Isle days. Yet it seems gaming journalism, and many new gamers, are hyping it because "it's Fallout 3" instead of objectively viewing this new game.

We shouldn't do that - we need to view Fallout 3 as it's own game, since it's not a part of the series. Imagine if your favorite game were made by a different studio ten years from now, and was just radically different from what you loved - it would be frustrating, and it would be even more frustrating to see that new game praised because of the old games.

What the frizzats, Final Fantasy does the same thing

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Zeliard9

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#27 Zeliard9
Member since 2007 • 6030 Posts
[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..Memoryitis

Well, since it's your birthday (if it's not, this counts as an early gift) I'll summarize it for you:

Bethesda's not a bad studio, Fallout 3's not a bad game - but Fallout 3 isn't really "fallout" as we knew it in the Black Isle days. Yet it seems gaming journalism, and many new gamers, are hyping it because "it's Fallout 3" instead of objectively viewing this new game.

We shouldn't do that - we need to view Fallout 3 as it's own game, since it's not a part of the series. Imagine if your favorite game were made by a different studio ten years from now, and was just radically different from what you loved - it would be frustrating, and it would be even more frustrating to see that new game praised because of the old games.

What the frizzats, Final Fantasy does the same thing

Final Fantasy isn't part of any single canon, and has always been created by Square. It's not the same thing at all.

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Panzer_Zwei

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#28 Panzer_Zwei
Member since 2006 • 15498 Posts
[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]I doubt it, having seen how it was when Brotherhood of Steel was released.

It would just had been seen as the next Fallout game, and it would've had along the same kind of reactions from fans.

foxhound_fox


Not really... we have already seen spinoffs for Fallout. Another one probably wouldn't get the same reaction as the previous ones. The fact that this game is a direct sequel to the original numbered series and that Bethesda is destroying the canon is pretty much the reasoning, as I see it, to why the fans are up in arms over what Bethesda is doing/has done.

Even if it were loosely based off of the Fallout universe and wasn't a sequel, I really think everyone, except the most hardcore of hardcore Fallout fans, wouldn't have as much against it.

I saw the same outrage or even more with Brotherhood of Steel.

Even in forums from other companies like the Bioware forums fans could't shut up about that game, and saying the same stuff they're saying now how teh consoles killed teh Fallout.

There were all kinds of mock up images, though the only one I remember now is one that said Fallout returns or something, ain't that a kick in the teeth?

The thing is that you're taking the cannon into account because they gave it the number, but back then, people were saying that's how the Fallout series were going to be from then on.

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JLF1

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#29 JLF1
Member since 2005 • 8263 Posts
No Fallout 3 from Bethesda = No Fallout 3 at all.
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#30 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts

I don't support game design that insults the intelligence of players and patronizes them. That's about as simple as I can put it.

Mordred19

I checked out your gamercard and its full of games that are more casual than Fallout 3. Just sayin'. ;)

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Pariah_001

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#31 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

What the frizzats, Final Fantasy does the same thingMemoryitis

First of all: That's not an affirmation of any kind--Especially not from a JRPG to a WRPG.

Second of all: No it doesn't. If you're talking about the overhead, it was never as crucial to the franchise as isometric was to Fallout.

Third: Fallout's franchise is based on continuity. Final Fantasy's is not.

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subrosian

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#32 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

What the frizzats, Final Fantasy does the same thing

Memoryitis

Fallout games (Fallout 1 and Fallout 2) are canon, the second game picks up where the first game left off. Fallout Tactics and Brotherhood of Steel were spinoffs, that were not part of the storyline. When Fallout 3 released, it should therefore (in theory) continue on the storyline.

Bethesda is only "sort of following" the storyline - the game takes place after Fallout 1 / Fallout 2, yet the world it takes place in seems to be radically different than Fallout 1 / 2.

-

Final Fantasy games intentionally do not continue from each other (hence the name "Final Fantasy", and why true sequels are numbered differently such as Final Fantasy X-2) and are not produced by other studios. What is happening here is more like if, ten years from now, Epic bought the rights to Final Fantasy and made a sequel to Final Fantasy VIII (FF VIII-2) in the sty1e of Gears of War.

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Pariah_001

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#33 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

I checked out your gamercard and its full of games that are more casual than Fallout 3. Just sayin'. ;)BioShockOwnz

I didn't see him mention the word "casual." I think he's localizing his context in regards to Bethesda's change of Fallout.

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death919

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#34 death919
Member since 2004 • 4724 Posts
[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="pieatorium"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.Ibacai

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.

So you're actually saying your subjective perspective of whats fun is in fact more important than developers making money? Do you ignore "hardcore games" even if they are fun because they weren't created as mainstream cash cows? Do you support cheaply made shovelware because of their high profit potential?

I play something if it's fun to me. End of story.

So what you're saying is that you really just don't like games that are labeled hardcore? You say you want games to go mainstream and hardcore games to be killed off. Are they just not fun to you?

What does the word hardcore even mean? People throw the word around but I try to make sense of the sentence and get nowhere. He said he plays what he finds fun, and you somehow turn that into him being against hardcore games? Are you implying that a game that is "hardcore" is a game which is not fun?

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Zeliard9

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#35 Zeliard9
Member since 2007 • 6030 Posts

No Fallout 3 from Bethesda = No Fallout 3 at all.JLF1

So? Do we always need sequels? Sometimes you need to leave the classics alone. This applies to movies, so why not to games? The Godfather Part III was one Godfather too many.

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foxhound_fox

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#36 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
No Fallout 3 from Bethesda = No Fallout 3 at all.JLF1

Black Isle made a demo of Fallout 3... I think it is still available on the web somewhere. That is as close to the true "Fallout 3" as we will ever come.
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death919

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#37 death919
Member since 2004 • 4724 Posts

[QUOTE="Nolan16"]if u think some one is actually going to read all this your insane..subrosian

Well, since it's your birthday (if it's not, this counts as an early gift) I'll summarize it for you:

Bethesda's not a bad studio, Fallout 3's not a bad game - but Fallout 3 isn't really "fallout" as we knew it in the Black Isle days. Yet it seems gaming journalism, and many new gamers, are hyping it because "it's Fallout 3" instead of objectively viewing this new game.

We shouldn't do that - we need to view Fallout 3 as it's own game, since it's not a part of the series. Imagine if your favorite game were made by a different studio ten years from now, and was just radically different from what you loved - it would be frustrating, and it would be even more frustrating to see that new game praised because of the old games.

Well considering me and alot of my friends have never heard of Fallout before Fallout 3 and considering we're all super excited about it because it looks like it's going to be a great game, I think we can conclude that not everyone is "just" buying it because it's got the Fallout name on it.

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JLF1

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#38 JLF1
Member since 2005 • 8263 Posts

[QUOTE="JLF1"]No Fallout 3 from Bethesda = No Fallout 3 at all.Zeliard9

So? Do we always need sequels? Sometimes you need to leave the classics alone. This applies to movies, so why not to games? The Godfather Part III was one Godfather too many.


Then why do so many people care about this game?

If you really don't want a sequel don't play the game. If the so called "hardcore" fallout fans hate the game why don't they just ignore the game and refuse to call it canon? Bethesda is doing the game = not canon, it's that simple.
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Memoryitis

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#39 Memoryitis
Member since 2006 • 2221 Posts
[QUOTE="Memoryitis"]

What the frizzats, Final Fantasy does the same thing

subrosian

Fallout games (Fallout 1 and Fallout 2) are canon, the second game picks up where the first game left off. Fallout Tactics and Brotherhood of Steel were spinoffs, that were not part of the storyline. When Fallout 3 released, it should therefore (in theory) continue on the storyline.

Bethesda is only "sort of following" the storyline - the game takes place after Fallout 1 / Fallout 2, yet the world it takes place in seems to be radically different than Fallout 1 / 2.

-

Final Fantasy games intentionally do not continue from each other (hence the name "Final Fantasy", and why true sequels are numbered differently such as Final Fantasy X-2) and are not produced by other studios. What is happening here is more like if, ten years from now, Epic bought the rights to Final Fantasy and made a sequel to Final Fantasy VIII (FF VIII-2) in the sty1e of Gears of War.

k first of all fallout 2 does not take place right after fallout, and in fallout 2 there are hints about what happened in fallout

but you really did not need to know what happened in fallout to play fallout 2 because those hints will have explained what happened, but basically you dont need to know what happened in fallout to play fallout 2

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Pariah_001

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#40 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

No Fallout 3 from Bethesda = No Fallout 3 at all.JLF1

I think one of the overall points here is that calling this game "Fallout 3" is a severe misnomer.

But without pointing that out, whay should that matter. If we can't get an actual Fallout 3 sequel, let alone a decent one, then Fallout 1&2 do very well on their own.

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foxhound_fox

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#41 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Well considering me and alot of my friends have never heard of Fallout before Fallout 3 and considering we're all super excited about it because it looks like it's going to be a great game, I think we can conclude that not everyone is "just" buying it because it's got the Fallout name on it.death919

I don't think I have seen one person on this site ever claim that it will be a "bad game." Just that it will be an "atrocious Fallout game."
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BioShockOwnz

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#42 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]I checked out your gamercard and its full of games that are more casual than Fallout 3. Just sayin'. ;)Pariah_001

I didn't see him mention the word "casual." I think he's localizing his context in regards to Bethesda's change of Fallout.

"game design that insults the intelligence of players and patronizes them."

Sounds like a lot of those games I see in the gamercard, but hey, whatever! :) Actually, a lot of those games game design is far more linear and insults the intelligence of the player and patronizes them more than a game like Fallout 3. As much as some would love to believe, Fallout 3 is not a casual game. It's just not. It'll sell a lot, but it'll never sell to that casual demographic. Soccar moms and children will continue to enjoy Wii Fit.

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pieatorium

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#43 pieatorium
Member since 2008 • 1012 Posts
[QUOTE="pieatorium"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]Great post, but the actual thought behind it makes me chuckle. You have a well thought out opinion, which I completely disagree with. I'm all about games going mainstream and letting the cash roll in. It's time to kill off hardcore gaming all together.BioShockOwnz

I have no idea what it's like to live wishing for all goodness in the world to be replaced with the bland, commonplace, and mediocre. Can you even call yourself "alive" if you'd trade away art, beauty, and truth for the "almighty dollar"?

They're games for crying out loud. There's pleanty of other things to complain about. How about the economy? Our foreign policy? Obama and his far left liberal views? There's more things to worry about than games. At the end of the day, a game's a game to me. If it's fun, it's fun. If it's not fun, then it's not fun. I find beauty in life, not videogames.

So you're actually saying your subjective perspective of whats fun is in fact more important than developers making money? Do you ignore "hardcore games" even if they are fun because they weren't created as mainstream cash cows? Do you support cheaply made shovelware because of their high profit potential?

I play something if it's fun to me. End of story.

I personally find the old fallout games alot of fun, your original comment advocated the mainstreaming (dumbing down?) of these games and the death of hardcore games. Why? Does it impact your fun when someone else can find enjoyment in something you can't? I also enjoy FPS's and puzzle games and pretty much every type of game you can think of and what other people enjoy doesn't affect me. I'm not saying FO3 won't be fun it could possibly even turn out to be a good rpg but I would have rather had them create their own IP if they wanted to head into a PA or SciFi setting. Fallout is less about it's game mechanics and much more about it's setting and history imo and some of the directions they are taking are contradictory to that great canon built up so far. There is a reason everyone, even Bethesda, disregard the spinoffs the franchise spawned when talking fallout lore (even though FOT was a decent game it deviated so much from the previous history and FBOS was just all around trash), and despite this they are making the same mistakes.

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Mordred19

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#44 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
[QUOTE="Mordred19"]

I don't support game design that insults the intelligence of players and patronizes them. That's about as simple as I can put it.

BioShockOwnz

I checked out your gamercard and its full of games that are more casual than Fallout 3. Just sayin'. ;)

yes, and you should also check out my latest blog post, to see that I strive for better things and a deeper, more diverse experience. do you judge based on gamercards?

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BioShockOwnz

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#45 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts

I personally find the old fallout games alot of fun, your original comment advocated the mainstreaming (dumbing down?) of these games and the death of hardcore games. Why? Does it impact your fun when someone else can find enjoyment in something you can't? I also enjoy FPS's and puzzle games and pretty much every type of game you can think of and what other people enjoy doesn't affect me. I'm not saying FO3 won't be fun it could possibly even turn out to be a good rpg but I would have rather had them create their own IP if they wanted to head into a PA or SciFi setting. Fallout is less about it's game mechanics and much more about it's setting and history imo and some of the directions they are taking are contradictory to that great canon built up so far. There is a reason everyone, even Bethesda, disregard the spinoffs the franchise spawned when talking fallout lore (even though FOT was a decent game it deviated so much from the previous history and FBOS was just all around trash), and despite this they are making the same mistakes. pieatorium

I don't slap labels like "hardcore" on games, because those are the biggest posers. What I meant was that I'd like to see this "hardcore" label thrown in the trash and just play games for what they are.

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death919

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#46 death919
Member since 2004 • 4724 Posts
Watch this game's gunna come out and get a 9.5 from Gamespot and a 9.6 from IGN and then there'll still be that group of people saying "no this game sucks becuase it doesn't continue the storyline or have the same gameplay and blah blah blah blah blah blah" while the rest of us enjoy it. :)
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#47 Ibacai
Member since 2006 • 14459 Posts
What does the word hardcore even mean? People throw the word around but I try to make sense of the sentence and get nowhere. He said he plays what he finds fun, and you somehow turn that into him being against hardcore games? Are you implying that a game that is "hardcore" is a game which is not fun?death919
Read his first post in the thread and then come back and look at my post. You'll understand why I asked what I did.
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Pariah_001

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#48 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

Well considering me and alot of my friends have never heard of Fallout before Fallout 3 and considering we're all super excited about it because it looks like it's going to be a great game, I think we can conclude that not everyone is "just" buying it because it's got the Fallout name on it.death919

See, here's the thing. When Bethesda first aquired the license, they were making strenuous attempts to court the Fallout fanbase so as to sell the new format to them with only the Fallout name to attach to it. When they found out that wasn't working, they decided to bring the game to the consoles with a more casual format.

They were/are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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subrosian

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#49 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts
[QUOTE="Pariah_001"]

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]I checked out your gamercard and its full of games that are more casual than Fallout 3. Just sayin'. ;)BioShockOwnz

I didn't see him mention the word "casual." I think he's localizing his context in regards to Bethesda's change of Fallout.

"game design that insults the intelligence of players and patronizes them."

Sounds like a lot of those games I see in the gamercard, but hey, whatever! :) Actually, a lot of those games game design is far more linear and insults the intelligence of the player and patronizes them more than a game like Fallout 3. As much as some would love to believe, Fallout 3 is not a casual game. It's just not. It'll sell a lot, but it'll never sell to that casual demographic. Soccar moms and children will continue to enjoy Wii Fit.

1. Stop attacking the messenger rather than their message. It's a poor debate tactic at best.

2. That demographic (soccer moms and little girls) are called "Non-Traditional Gamers" not "casuals". The gamers who have never heard of Fallout can easily be classified as casual gamers.

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BioShockOwnz

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#50 BioShockOwnz
Member since 2006 • 52901 Posts
[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="Mordred19"]

I don't support game design that insults the intelligence of players and patronizes them. That's about as simple as I can put it.

Mordred19

I checked out your gamercard and its full of games that are more casual than Fallout 3. Just sayin'. ;)

yes, and you should also check out my latest blog post, to see that I strive for better things and a deeper, more diverse experience. do you judge based on gamercards?

With a gamercard full of those kinds of experiences, plus an MGS sig, I can't help but see hypocrisy in all of it. Sorry, but that's just how I see it.