[QUOTE="a_ratchet_fan"][QUOTE="greg_splicer"][QUOTE="a_ratchet_fan"][QUOTE="greg_splicer"][QUOTE="hustler_151"][QUOTE="greg_splicer"] So what if Lair's water is an ocean ? Still Kameo's one is FAR more impressive due to reflection, refractions, real waves and stuff refratced UNDER the water, so why do you insist that Lair's looks better ? It looks mediocre
As for the cartooney art style, i like it better than muddy colors of Lair
And what about the hugle low res textures in mountains - dragons etc etc ? Of course i can give you that until the game does release could see an improvement, has to be a HUGE one though to match Kameos textures and shaders
greg_splicer
What do you mean so what if its an ocean? do you think it would be harder to make a tiny cartoon pond look better or an OCEAN! i mean really do you think before you type?
Since you are NOT a programmer, and you have no idea what is more intensive, a HUGE same everywhere ocean, with minimum effects, or a pond full of stuff underwater and all effects possible, will you stop assuming ?
considering that each level in Lair is multiple kilometers, and the fact that that water in the Lair pic looks damn good as is... Also, do you really expect to be able to see stuff underwater in an ocean when it's THOUSANDS OF FEET DEEP?!!! Common sense. Besides, there shouldn't be waves coming from the pond. Ponds tend to not ripple like that unless something large just went through it, and since Kameo is MIA in this pic... extremely unrealistic.
EDIT: By the way, since there's more HDR lighting and ripples on the ocean pic, I'd say that the ocean is more graphically intensive... and yes, this is comig from a programmer. A C++ and DarkBasic programmer at that.
Dark Basic or C++ ? There is HUGE difference
Plus Kameo is large enough to do ripples, get back to reality, even a pebble does ripples in a pond, and where are mountain reflection in that water ? Anyway, there is no way we can directly compare them, but for the mere fact that this Kameo pond rilles in ral time, and calculates reflection from everyhting, refraction from a HOST of underwater stuff like grass, objects etc, and hads highlights too as Lair ocean, is a bit more intensive
DarkBasic AND C++. By the way, while the Kameo pond does look quite nice, you can basically see the entire thing without rotating the camera while Lair stretches for virtual kilometers. And since the Lair ocean appears to have individual water physics (which is what the cell specializes in)... Lair's ocean looks better.
Think of it this way. If Lair and Kameo started out with the exact same simple water texture, only Lair's was an ocean and Kameo's was a pond, you wouldn't be arguing about which one looks better. Now add HDR lighting to Lair and Kameo; you aren't arguing that Lair looks better. Add rippling effects to Lair and Kameo; you aren't arguing that Lair looks better. Add refraction to Kameo. While Kameo now has another effect, Lair is still doing HDR and ripples on a much larger scale (and HDR is one of the most graphically intensive effects used in games). Add stuff underwater to Kameo. Again, Lair is on a much larger scale, and this time it wouldn't make sense to make underwater stuff visible in Lair as Lair's is an ocean. add reflections to Kameo. As we can't see what's under the dragon, we can't be sure whether Lair actually does do reflections, as there's nothing above and/or around the sea besides that dragon. And besides, ocean water is constantly moving... you need still water to reflect and refract. Add individual water physics to Lair... The tally:
Lair ocean: 3
Kameo pond: 6
While Kameo may have double the effects, a 20 kilometer ocean versus a two-meter-wide-by-four-meter pond simply doesn't compare, as the Lair ocean is over ten thousand-times larger than Kameo's.
Bigger NOT EQUAL nore prossesing intensive proporsionally, meaning that if you render a cube of 1 meter and one of 1000KM, the difference in performance loss is not 1000 times more, if what you suggest was true, there would be no way games like Oblivion or Lair and anything else, the FACT is that we do not have the slightest clue if this ocean is more processoer intensive than a pond, when both are taking up the whole screen, since the LOD system and pixel limitations does not let render water that is 1000 miles away, and textures are applied procedurally, this ocean does not have one guge detailed texture, and the waves and ripples seem big enough to make it not like anything amazingly detailed in the end, just a moving patch for the big waves, and a bump texture for the detail, i have to give it the fact that the patch has to be with many polygons, but Kameo's pond ripples are VASTLY more impressive, and not fake looking like in Lair, that means the Lair real time calculations are far lower resolution than in Kameo, maybe due to size
Anyway, i am impressed by both waters to be frank, it is just that Kameo's interactivity and all effects combine give me a FAR moreinteresting end experience than an ocean that seems the same everywhere
This post would be correct if Lair did not have to preload all of the data before a level starts. While it may stream, all of the water has to be loaded into memory. This means that all the water is doing its own individual physics across the 20 kilometers, even if you can only see around 15 meters at a time. In other words, the entire ocean is loaded despite the fact than one can only see a fraction of it in the screenshot. BTW, if you go beyond the coastline of a beach, you'd see that the screenshot is a very real interpretation of the ocean... waves are not only as big as the ones in that screenshot but sometimes bigger, which has to do with the moon's gravitational pull. Kameo does not have this realistic advantage, as the body of water is too small.
As for Lair's water looking more "fake" is a matter of opinion, and does not signify that Lair's RTCs are lower than Kameo's. In fact, they are most likely higher; notice how in the screenshot the water rises and dips... it's called individual water physics. The ripple in Kameo is most likely a predetermined water EFFECT, rather than actual physics.
As for water and grass That water or ... 
that one ? 
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