Wa- Wait a minute.What advantage do consoles get over PC except exclusives? Any?

*tips hat*

Precisely. Consoles sacrifice power and flexibility for efficiency and certainty. People who argue against them from the perspective of a PC enthusiast (PCs can do so much more!) are missing the point entirely, people who buy consoles understand that they won't play their DOS games or do CAD work, but they aren't expected to do that. They're expected to play games designed for them and frequently for a previous console generation.

An additional note I would make is that while I find DRM on any platform objectionable, consoles tend to be far less intrusive and draconian in their implementations compared to several PC alternatives (Origin, SecuROM, Star Force, Games for Windows Live).

Aidenfury19

Exactly. The versatility is not needed. A games console is first and foremost a games console, meaning games will (the vast majority of the time) have few issues running on them.

We're not arguing that all PC's have issues running games, or that they cannot run older games, but as has been shown, game compatibility can be an issue.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Maybe you didn't, but the guy you replied you did... hence why you replied with your argument.

Exactly so all system prove to have problems with games, thank you.

lundy86_4

My argument was formed before what he stated. I was never talking backwards compatibility, and was only referencing current-gen games.

Something I didn't refute. Regardless, do PC's (in general) have more issues running games than consoles? We'll stick to current games.

Running games... yup there's no troubleshooting steps for console...

http://www.ehow.com/how_7404552_metal-solid-4-won_t-install.html

Running games... yup there's no troubleshooting steps for console...

http://www.ehow.com/how_7404552_metal-solid-4-won_t-install.html

Bebi_vegeta

Seriously, stop. You're misconstruing what is said and/or putting words into people's mouths. Consoles have far less issues with running games. That's it, that's all. We're done.

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine :)

[QUOTE="PC360Wii"]But they cant even play them. you argue that if 1% of my games have problems I shouldnt enjoy the fact that i get so many more because of this very nature? absolutely grasping at straws, id like to give you more credit and believe you dont hold to such a casual, lazy pathetic ideal yourself....lundy86_4

I argue that games have "guaranteed compatability" for the consoles (thanks to aidenfury above for some better wording), which isn't the case for PC's. At the end of the day, people can buy a new PC game and have issues running/starting the game, whereas this is a far less likely scenario for the consoles. It is an advantage for the consoles.

Skyrim won't launch.

Deus Ex won't launch.

Battlefield 3 won't launch.

The Old Republic launch problems.

-------

These are the kinds of things I am talking about. Even if this was down to user error, it's almost non-existant on consoles compared to PC.

I know what your saying, and I'm argueing that what you gain is alot more than you sacrifice..PC360Wii

Something I would wholeheartedly agree with. It's one of the reasons that I use the PC as one of my main platforms (though it's getting on a bit now :().

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Running games... yup there's no troubleshooting steps for console...

http://www.ehow.com/how_7404552_metal-solid-4-won_t-install.html

lundy86_4

Seriously, stop. You're misconstruing what is said and/or putting words into people's mouths. Consoles have far less issues with running games. That's it, that's all. We're done.

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine :)

Far less ? I just provided you a link to troubleshoting...

Far less ? I just provided you a link to troubleshoting...

Bebi_vegeta

Far less does not mean zero. I can't believe I have to explain things like that.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Running games... yup there's no troubleshooting steps for console...

http://www.ehow.com/how_7404552_metal-solid-4-won_t-install.html

lundy86_4

Seriously, stop. You're misconstruing what is said and/or putting words into people's mouths. Consoles have far less issues with running games. That's it, that's all. We're done.

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine :)

Don't bother with him he is one of those pc gamers with a Napoleon complex. if you don't say pc is better 100% of the time and has no problems they cant Handel it.

Don't bother with him he is one of those pc gamers with a Napoleon complex. if you don't say pc is better 100% of the time and has no problems they cant Handel it.

dontshackzmii

Some of them brought up great points, however my point was something different initially. Bebi_Vegeta seems to misconstrue what I say, though.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Far less ? I just provided you a link to troubleshoting...

lundy86_4

Far less does not mean zero. I can't believe I have to explain things like that.

Then for christ sake, show me some stats... what is this, your assuming because you've google it ?

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Running games... yup there's no troubleshooting steps for console...

http://www.ehow.com/how_7404552_metal-solid-4-won_t-install.html

dontshackzmii

Seriously, stop. You're misconstruing what is said and/or putting words into people's mouths. Consoles have far less issues with running games. That's it, that's all. We're done.

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine :)

Don't bother with him he is one of those pc gamers with a Napoleon complex. if you don't say pc is better 100% of the time and has no problems they cant Handel it.

Says the console fanboy... don't try to act like you know me.

Then for christ sake, show me some stats... what is this, your assuming because you've google it ?

Bebi_vegeta

Stats that console games are typically more compatible than PC games across the board (i.e. for every user)? Do I need to?

Typically, when you put in a console game, it boots.

Regardless, there are no stats, so don't believe it if you don't want to. I'm not forcing you to :lol:

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Then for christ sake, show me some stats... what is this, your assuming because you've google it ?

lundy86_4

Stats that console games are typically more compatible than PC games across the board (i.e. for every user)? Do I need to?

Typically, when you put in a console game, it boots.

Regardless, there are no stats, so don't believe it if you don't want to. I'm not forcing you to :lol:

Typically when I start steam it works... Now what ?

Is this something I need to beleive because you said so ? Thank you for your great argument... it's undisputable.

Typacily when I start steam it works... Now what ?

Is this something I need to beleive because you said so ?

Bebi_vegeta

I told you not to believe it if you don't want to. If you aren't going to read my posts, i'm gonna start not reading yours and will just begin to ramble off. Just to show the same courtesy.

You started Steam, so Steam worked. Cool. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a whole lot.

It's clear that you aren't going to accept anything I say, so I think it's time we go our own ways. I don't really wanna keep this going on, especially if you keep misconstruing what is said.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Typacily when I start steam it works... Now what ?

Is this something I need to beleive because you said so ?

lundy86_4

I told you not to believe it if you don't want to. If you aren't going to read my posts, i'm gonna start not reading yours and will just begin to ramble off. Just to show the same courtesy.

You started Steam, so Steam worked. Cool. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a whole lot.

It's clear that you aren't going to accept anything I say, so I think it's time we go our own ways. I don't really wanna keep this going on, especially if you keep misconstruing what is said.

You keep saying that... I've misconstructed nothing...

You don't wanna talk about backward compatibility, ok

You say consoles have far less issues starting (and not running) a game... yet, I and my friends don't seem to have these issues. Now your reference is google... which can also find the same issues for console... Did I get this right or are you just going to say again I don't read what you're saying and probably leave the topic because your argument is moot in todays generation of gaming ?

You keep saying that... I've misconstructed nothing...

You don't wanna talk about backward compatibility, ok

You say consoles have far less issues starting (and not running) a game... yet, I and my friends don't seem to have these issues. Now your reference is google... which can also find the same issues for console... Did I get this right or are you just going to say again I don't read what you're saying and probably leave the topic because your argument is moot in todays generation of gaming ?

Bebi_vegeta

You misconstrued that I was talking backwards compatibility. You misconstrued my point regarding "far less" console games having issues. That I was somehow talking the Steam software, rather than games.

I'm done here, bro. Don't believe me if you don't want to. I'm not going to reply seriously to anecdotes. I can guarantee you'll find far more PC game issues using even intricate searches over that of console games. Like I said though, you don't have to believe me.

Have a good one.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

You keep saying that... I've misconstructed nothing...

You don't wanna talk about backward compatibility, ok

You say consoles have far less issues starting (and not running) a game... yet, I and my friends don't seem to have these issues. Now your reference is google... which can also find the same issues for console... Did I get this right or are you just going to say again I don't read what you're saying and probably leave the topic because your argument is moot in todays generation of gaming ?

lundy86_4

You misconstrued that I was talking backwards compatibility. You misconstrued my point regarding "far less" console games having issues. That I was somehow talking the Steam software, rather than games.

I'm done here, bro. Don't believe me if you don't want to. I'm not going to reply seriously to anecdotes. I can guarantee you'll find far more PC game issues using even intricate searches over that of console games. Like I said though, you don't have to believe me.

Have a good one.

I've misconstructed... Yeah, sorry, because you replied to someone who was talking about backward compatiblity.

I've misconstuced ''far less''... tell me where ... Because I said console had problems too ?

When I talked about Steam... I was obviously implying when starting a gaming (I'll do the same thing you do and say this was self implied).

It's okay, I don't beleive you (anecdotes no good, but google is, awesome (yet I provided one link to MSG4 troubleshooting))... Maybe before this gen I would of agreed, this gen not so much.

I've misconstructed... Yeah, sorry, because you replied to someone who was talking about backward compatiblity.

I've misconstuced ''far less''... tell me where ... Because I said console had problems too ?

When I talked about Steam... I was obviously implying when starting a gaming (I'll do the same thing you do and say this was self implied).

It's okay, I don't beleive you (anecdotes no good, but google is, awesome (yet I provided one link to MSG4 troubleshooting)... Maybe before this gen I would of agreed, this gen not so much.

Bebi_vegeta

Kk.

[QUOTE="Another48hours"][QUOTE="-Unreal-"]

• Easier to carry from one room to the living room (good for my puny kiddie console body)
• Easier to set up and free from drivers etc (good for my puny kiddie console brain)

-Unreal-

[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

They don't cost 300 dollars to upgrade every few months.

ActicEdge

I can't tell if this is a troll post or not because alot of people actually beleive this.

Its a troll post but its not an uncommon thought. I actually just don`t think SW has a reality about the average persons perception of pretty much any topic. Most people I know think PC gaming is expensive, thousand of dollars. Granted it got better with time since I`m in engineering where people`s computer knowledge generally is better than average but you`re just off your rocker if you think its crazy that people think this. Most people buy pre bulit computers with average parts, to get it up to super high quality gaming standard they think you have to spend much more. Not exactly unreasonable.

THat's is pretty much the only thing holding back PC, too many people believe in the myths and are intimidated. They don't try to learn anything about PC gaming it's like it needs to be mass marketed in their face when a simple google search would clear things up. You don't need to be a tech wiz to play games on a PC, and PC Gaming is one of the easy things you can learn to use a PC for.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Oh really... that's so convenient for a compatibility argument... one can play games 15 years old, while one can't play games 6+ years old games.

lundy86_4

Convenient? Not really. More common sense. I wasn't referencing backwards compatability when I made that point :?

One can play certain games that are older, for sure. Some may require extreme tweaking to run. Sh*t, my brother still has issues running KoTOR on Vista.

At the end of the day, consoles have far less issues with running compatible games. Hence why we have numerous posts all over the internet for certain game fixes on PC.

The last time I ran into a game that didn't work with my OS which was pretty much once I right clicked it, went into properties, compatibility and selected a older OS that was compatible with it.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

I've misconstructed... Yeah, sorry, because you replied to someone who was talking about backward compatiblity.

I've misconstuced ''far less''... tell me where ... Because I said console had problems too ?

When I talked about Steam... I was obviously implying when starting a gaming (I'll do the same thing you do and say this was self implied).

It's okay, I don't beleive you (anecdotes no good, but google is, awesome (yet I provided one link to MSG4 troubleshooting)... Maybe before this gen I would of agreed, this gen not so much.

lundy86_4

Kk.

lol... your best argument yet.

The last time I ran into a game that didn't work with my OS which was pretty much once I right clicked it, went into properties, compatibility and selected a older OS that was compatible with it.

NoodleFighter

I'm not saying that it isn't easy to overcome in some instances. Heck, it could be user error sometimes.

I don't see how anybody can believe that PCs have less compatibility issues, though. I see it as an offset. I may get compatibility issues every so often, but I get a far more open OS and game editing oppurtunities, which can be great. Heck, I just completed Deus Ex again running in 1080p with enhanced environment textures. The only thing that sucks were the character models :P

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

I've misconstructed... Yeah, sorry, because you replied to someone who was talking about backward compatiblity.

I've misconstuced ''far less''... tell me where ... Because I said console had problems too ?

When I talked about Steam... I was obviously implying when starting a gaming (I'll do the same thing you do and say this was self implied).

It's okay, I don't beleive you (anecdotes no good, but google is, awesome (yet I provided one link to MSG4 troubleshooting)... Maybe before this gen I would of agreed, this gen not so much.

Bebi_vegeta

Kk.

lol... your best argument yet.

*sigh*

Yup, sure.

Clearly better than my sourced arguments *yawn*

Have a good one Bebi.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

I can't tell if this is a troll post or not because alot of people actually beleive this.

NoodleFighter

Its a troll post but its not an uncommon thought. I actually just don`t think SW has a reality about the average persons perception of pretty much any topic. Most people I know think PC gaming is expensive, thousand of dollars. Granted it got better with time since I`m in engineering where people`s computer knowledge generally is better than average but you`re just off your rocker if you think its crazy that people think this. Most people buy pre bulit computers with average parts, to get it up to super high quality gaming standard they think you have to spend much more. Not exactly unreasonable.

THat's is pretty much the only thing holding back PC, too many people believe in the myths and are intimidated. They don't try to learn anything about PC gaming it's like it needs to be mass marketed in their face when a simple google search would clear things up. You don't need to be a tech wiz to play games on a PC, and PC Gaming is one of the easy things you can learn to use a PC for.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

Kk.

lundy86_4

lol... your best argument yet.

*sigh*

Yup, sure.

Clearly better than my sourced arguments *yawn*

Have a good one Bebi.

Oh really, and my link about MSG4 not working counts for nothing... you want to find one for BF3 on ps3 ? lol... sourced arguments... Seriously, wake up.

Oh really, and my link about MSG4 not working counts for nothing... you want to find one for BF3 on ps3 ? lol... sourced arguments... Seriously, wake up.

Bebi_vegeta

Not at all. I never said it counted for nothing. In fact, when I said that my "far less" hardly means zero, it meant that your source regarding MGS4 counted. Hence it was above zero. Do you understand?

Honestly, I dunno where you learned to debate, but I posted links for a 3-4 relatively new games (my Google links were because there were numerous sources given within the search). My initial point, was that consoles have a far higher compatibility than PCs (i.e. games work right out of the box more often than not, and require no tweaking). Do you agree with this asserstion, or disagree? Or do you believe that PC games have a higher compatibility than consoles (in terms of the games working out of the box)?

This was the initial assertion that was made, so by all means, instead of this back and forth, answer the question I have already asked you in another post.

Yeah, we get it. Everyone who owns a PC is God and anyone who thinks about purchasing a console should be locked up in an asylum.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Oh really, and my link about MSG4 not working counts for nothing... you want to find one for BF3 on ps3 ? lol... sourced arguments... Seriously, wake up.

lundy86_4

Not at all. I never said it counted for nothing. In fact, when I said that my "far less" hardly means zero, it meant that your source regarding MGS4 counted. Hence it was above zero. Do you understand?

Honestly, I dunno where you learned to debate, but I posted links for a 3-4 relatively new games (my Google links were because there were numerous sources given within the search). My initial point, was that consoles have a far higher compatibility than PCs (i.e. games work right out of the box more often than not, and require no tweaking). Do you agree with this asserstion, or disagree? Or do you believe that PC games have a higher compatibility than consoles (in terms of the games working out of the box)?

This was the initial assertion that was made, so by all means, instead of this back and forth, answer the question I have already asked you in another post.

Then why the hell are you saying this ''Clearly better than mysourcedarguments *yawn*'' implying I have no source for my arguments.

I don't beleive either one has higher compatibility... that's the bottom line. I had no compatibility issues what so ever on either gaming machines. I heard people having issues with PC and some with console...I had updates issues with games and console, but that's another argument. I don't think this is a strong point for either system, but if we open the argument to backward compatibility then I think PC may have an advantage.

So, are you going to leave or what... lol you've been saying bye bye for the past 4 replies.

Then why the hell are you saying this ''Clearly better than mysourcedarguments *yawn*'' implying I have no source for my arguments.

I don't beleive either one has higher compatibility... that's the bottom line. I had no compatibility issues what so ever on either gaming machines. I heard people having issues with PC and some with console...I had updates issues with games and console, but that's another argument. I don't think this is a strong point for either system, but if we open the argument to backward compatibility then I think PC may have an advantage.

Bebi_vegeta

I provided sourced arguments, I just couldn't be bothered sourcing each and every one for a forum debate. If this were an essay, my sources would be formatted and cited correctly. I wasn't implying or referencing any of your sources with regards to that post. Simply undermining your point regarding "Kk" being my best argument.

So, you believe that each has the exact same compatibility? Alright, fair enough. This debate seems to have run its course.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

Then why the hell are you saying this ''Clearly better than mysourcedarguments *yawn*'' implying I have no source for my arguments.

I don't beleive either one has higher compatibility... that's the bottom line. I had no compatibility issues what so ever on either gaming machines. I heard people having issues with PC and some with console...I had updates issues with games and console, but that's another argument. I don't think this is a strong point for either system, but if we open the argument to backward compatibility then I think PC may have an advantage.

lundy86_4

I provided sourced arguments, I just couldn't be bothered sourcing each and every one for a forum debate. If this were an essay, my sources would be formatted and cited correctly. I wasn't implying or referencing any of your sources with regards to that post. Simply undermining your point regarding "Kk" being my best argument.

So, you believe that each has the exact same compatibility? Alright, fair enough. This debate seems to have run its course.

The ''your best argument yet'' was indeed to get your attention and it worked.

Both have typical games should work out of the box if you have the hardware to run it.

You see what's wrong with this argument... It's the you ''beleive''... yet you beleive something else. Hence why this argument can't end without people agreing that they don't agree, which is why I ask for stats or pools... but it's kind of impossible to have numbers on this subject.

The ''your best argument yet'' was indeed to get your attention and it worked.

Both have typical games should work out of the box if you have the hardware to run it.

You see what's wrong with this argument... It's the you ''beleive''... yet you beleive something else. Hence why this argument can't end without people agreing that they don't agree, which is why I ask for stats or pools... but it's kind of impossible to have numbers on this subject.

Bebi_vegeta

Oh, I agree that it's all beliefs. At the end of the day, it's hard to debate much without stats, however, that was never my intention. I simply put forth a general belief of why people believe consoles to be better, and that I agree with to an extent.

I, personally, very rarely have issues with my PC games. My brother seems to get all of the bad luck.

PC is good, but not everyone can afford a high end PC that produces max graphics. That's why most people play consoles, there are too many PC whores on here.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

The ''your best argument yet'' was indeed to get your attention and it worked.

Both have typical games should work out of the box if you have the hardware to run it.

You see what's wrong with this argument... It's the you ''beleive''... yet you beleive something else. Hence why this argument can't end without people agreing that they don't agree, which is why I ask for stats or pools... but it's kind of impossible to have numbers on this subject.

lundy86_4

Oh, I agree that it's all beliefs. At the end of the day, it's hard to debate much without stats, however, that was never my intention. I simply put forth a general belief of why people believe consoles to be better, and that I agree with to an extent.

I, personally, very rarely have issues with my PC games. My brother seems to get all of the bad luck.

Well we got to some agreement, quite rare to find this on SW lol... see post above.

Yeah, we get it. Everyone who owns a PC is God and anyone who thinks about purchasing a console should be locked up in an asylum.

CooperThief

lol pc is for noobs and virigins, i am 360 4life.

[deleted]

whats a virigins ?

[QUOTE="Another48hours"][QUOTE="campzor"] Also regarding point #2.. worrying if your pc will be capable of running x new gameasylumni

You keep saying that as if Onlive is PC gaming; it isn't. It isn't PC gaming any more than Fish Wrangler or Mafia Wars. You may be using your PC to play, but you don't have to and, in fact, the use of your PC is that of a console, not a PC.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="PC360Wii"]But they cant even play them. you argue that if 1% of my games have problems I shouldnt enjoy the fact that i get so many more because of this very nature? absolutely grasping at straws, id like to give you more credit and believe you dont hold to such a casual, lazy pathetic ideal yourself....Aidenfury19

I argue that games have "guaranteed compatability" for the consoles (thanks to aidenfury above for some better wording), which isn't the case for PC's. At the end of the day, people can buy a new PC game and have issues running/starting the game, whereas this is a far less likely scenario for the consoles. It is an advantage for the consoles.

Skyrim won't launch.

Deus Ex won't launch.

Battlefield 3 won't launch.

The Old Republic launch problems.

-------

These are the kinds of things I am talking about. Even if this was down to user error, it's almost non-existant on consoles compared to PC.

*tips hat*

Precisely. Consoles sacrifice power and flexibility for efficiency and certainty. People who argue against them from the perspective of a PC enthusiast (PCs can do so much more!) are missing the point entirely, people who buy consoles understand that they won't play their DOS games or do CAD work, but they aren't expected to do that. They're expected to play games designed for them and frequently for a previous console generation.

An additional note I would make is that while I find DRM on any platform objectionable, consoles tend to be far less intrusive and draconian in their implementations compared to several PC alternatives (Origin, SecuROM, Star Force, Games for Windows Live).

MS could enforce runtime certificate on PC and make it a "walled garden" device. MS is already enforcing runtime certificates with 64bit drivers i.e. no runtime certificate = program will not run. Unauthorised changes to the program invalidates the certificate.

Exclusives are the only advantage you need. :)

[QUOTE="asylumni"]

[QUOTE="Another48hours"] Onlive.ronvalencia

You keep saying that as if Onlive is PC gaming; it isn't. It isn't PC gaming any more than Fish Wrangler or Mafia Wars. You may be using your PC to play, but you don't have to and, in fact, the use of your PC is that of a console, not a PC.

Um, no. Servers are servers, not PC's.

Exclusives are the only advantage you need. :)

nitekids2004

Are priced for parental purchase.

/thread

PC is good, but not everyone can afford a high end PC that produces max graphics. That's why most people play consoles, there are too many PC whores on here.

HaloPimp978

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="asylumni"]

You keep saying that as if Onlive is PC gaming; it isn't. It isn't PC gaming any more than Fish Wrangler or Mafia Wars. You may be using your PC to play, but you don't have to and, in fact, the use of your PC is that of a console, not a PC.

asylumni

Um, no. Servers are servers, not PC's.

Are priced for parental purchase.

/thread

MK-Professor

or folks on a budget:roll:

The reasons I could come up with:

• Consoles are completely plug and play, don't need to install any OS
• Updates to games are usually automatic. If you have a game on PC that's not on steam or origin, you usually need to go hunt down the latest version
• No need to worry about drivers, chipsets, cooling, CPU speed etc.
• Online system is standardised, meaning almost no issues with online play.

Now with that all being said, if you can handle the extra work a PC comes with, you'll find that gaming is ultimaltly superior to console gaming. On PC you get:

• Customizable hardware, if you can afford it, your PC can be a beast
• Modded games. Skyrim, Doom 3, Counterstrike, etc.. can be modded to enhance the game or even add length to a game, and it's free.
• MMOs. I'm not the biggest fan of MMOs, but there are lots to choose from on PC, one that is surely to your liking. These game add countless hours of entertainment.
• Most console games are on PC and usually a PC has better hardware than consoles, allowing you to enjoy the game with a higher resolution, better sound, better graphics and on the plus side, many PC games are compatible with the 360 controller for windows, so games like Assassin's Creed can be enjoyed with console controls and superior graphics

[QUOTE="meetroid8"]Convenience and simplicity, there is no thought involved when setting up a console. You plug it into the outlet/tv, pop in the disc, and you're done.Another48hours

[QUOTE="asylumni"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] X86 based servers are still X86 PCs. p4s2p0

Um, no. Servers are servers, not PC's.

I never said it can't. Computers are very versatile. What I'm saying is that things are what they are, not what you want them to be to suit an argument. The machines that run Onlive are not PC's, they're servers.