WiiU (ZombiU), Witcher 2 (360) and Next Gen systems xbox 720 (FF15 Agnes)

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] Cell does assist RSX but not as much as you think, RSX is still a very capable GPU as exclusive games have shown and there's even been developers over Beyond3D say that it's also very competent.mrfrosty151986

Again, exclusive games doesn't negate artwork subjectivity.

On deferred shading, Sony has a white paper on CELL's 5 SPEs ~= Geforce 7800 GTX.

What happens if PS3 has Radeon X1950 (with 128bit, 8 ROPs) instead of Geforce 7800 (with 128bit, 8 ROPs)?

In general, shader programs runs on the GPU within the limitation of the register storage.

Radeon X1950 Pro equiped PS3 would be reducing CELL patches e.g. shader branch, lost compute due to shader stalls from texture fetch operations, full speed 32bit compute, 3DC+ texture compression support, GpGPU (AMD Close-To-Metal) and 'etc'.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

Again, exclusive games doesn't negate artwork subjectivity.

On deferred shading, Sony has a white paper on CELL's 5 SPEs ~= Geforce 7800 GTX.

What happens if PS3 has Radeon X1950 (with 128bit, 8 ROPs) instead of Geforce 7800 (with 128bit, 8 ROPs)?

ronvalencia

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] Not a lot as at this point in there life cycle the systems are currently too bandwidth starved for more GPU power to make that much of a difference. mrfrosty151986

Radeon X1950 has 512 threads (for pixel shader) to expand the register storage and fixes pixel shader stalls with texture fetch operations.

Radeon X1950 is a half way house between Geforce 7 and Geforce 8 i.e. it has similar hardware technology as with G80.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] But they still need memory access to do it, which costs memory bandwidth.mrfrosty151986

We are discussing Wii U, Xbox 360 and PS3. X1950 Pro is for What If scenario i.e. PS3 equiped with X1950 type GPU.

Tthe limitations with Geforce 7 can be applied on NVIDIA RSX i.e. the key hardware design is the same.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] Radeon X1950 has 512 threads (for pixel shader) to expand register storage.ronvalencia

We are discussing Wii U, Xbox 360 and PS3. X1950 Pro is for What If scenario i.e. PS3 equiped with X1950 type GPU.

Tthe limitations with Geforce 7 can be applied on NVIDIA RSX i.e. the key hardware design is the same.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] Dude seriously, stop bringing up PC cards please, we're discussing RSX and Xenos. If you're going to start bring up PC hardware I'll bring my 7950's to the party.mrfrosty151986

We are discussing Wii U, Xbox 360 and PS3. X1950 Pro is for What If scenario i.e. PS3 equiped with X1950 type GPU.

Tthe limitations with Geforce 7 can be applied on NVIDIA RSX i.e. the key hardware design is the same.

"Developers code around them" has limits i.e.

1. have they overcome RSX's pixel shader stalls during texture fetch operations?

2. have they overcome shader branch issue without the aid of CELL?

3. have they overcome shader indexing problem without the aid of CELL?

4. have they overcome vertex shader problem without the aid of CELL?

5. have they overcome tessellation (geometry amplification) problem without the aid of CELL?

Note that LogLuv/Integer HDR and FXAA (post processing AA) works on desktop Geforce 7.

Workarounds usually has compute penalty associated with it.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

We are discussing Wii U, Xbox 360 and PS3. X1950 Pro is for What If scenario i.e. PS3 equiped with X1950 type GPU.

Tthe limitations with Geforce 7 can be applied on NVIDIA RSX i.e. the key hardware design is the same.

ronvalencia

"Developers code around them" has limits i.e.

1. have they overcome RSX's pixel shader stalls during texture fetch operations?

2. have they overcome shader branch issue without the aid of CELL?

3. have they overcome shader indexing problem without the aid of CELL?

4. have they overcome vertex shader problem without the aid of CELL?

5. have they overcome tessellation (geometry amplification) problem without the aid of CELL?

Note that LogLuv/Integer HDR and FXAA (post processing AA) works on desktop Geforce 7.

Workarounds usually has compute penalty associated with it.

You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.

And tessellation? RSX is aout as good at tessellation as Xenos's weak tesselltion unit.

You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.mrfrosty151986

With aid from the Cell.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"]You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.RyviusARC

With aid from the Cell.

mrfrosty151986

But his whole point was that the Xenos could do things the RSX couldn't without the help from the CELL.

Ah yes, a LoosingEnds thread...

ZombiU looks decent for a early Wii U game and does the job of being atmospheric and spooky.

PDZ and Kameo weren't as graphically amazing as you are hyping them to be.

They were initially developed for the first Xbox and then development shifted to the 360.

They look nice for early 360 games, mind, prooving that Rare were, indeed, wizards of visual magic.

Witcher 2 on the 360 looks pretty much like the PC version running on low details and in lower resolution.

The only thing they added was some new lighting but honestly, that doesn't make the game look as good as the PC version running on high-end hardware (still good looking 360 game tho).

And Agni's Philosophy is just a tech demo running on high-end PC hardware of today.

We don't know anything concrete about the next Xbox and if the next FF will really look like this (maybe during interactive cut-scenes, like Uncharted has).

Any questions?

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"]

RyviusARC

But his whole point was that the Xenos could do things the RSX couldn't without the help from the CELL.

You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.mrfrosty151986

With aid from the Cell.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] RSX doesn't really suffer the problems that desktop G70 does because developers code around them, how many times do I have to say that before you let it sink in to that skull of yours?mrfrosty151986

"Developers code around them" has limits i.e.

1. have they overcome RSX's pixel shader stalls during texture fetch operations?

2. have they overcome shader branch issue without the aid of CELL?

3. have they overcome shader indexing problem without the aid of CELL?

4. have they overcome vertex shader problem without the aid of CELL?

5. have they overcome tessellation (geometry amplification) problem without the aid of CELL?

Note that LogLuv/Integer HDR and FXAA (post processing AA) works on desktop Geforce 7.

Workarounds usually has compute penalty associated with it.

You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.

And tessellation? RSX is aout as good at tessellation as Xenos's weak tesselltion unit.

Killzone 2 didn't have HDR hence it avoided RSX's HDR FP + MSAA design issue.

Killzone 3 used MLAA instead of MSAA and hence it avoided RSX's MSAA + HDR design issue.

Crysis 2 is loaded with more technical effects (GI, HDR, DRL) the Killzone 2 and Killzone 3.

With aid from the Cell.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

"Developers code around them" has limits i.e.

1. have they overcome RSX's pixel shader stalls during texture fetch operations?

2. have they overcome shader branch issue without the aid of CELL?

3. have they overcome shader indexing problem without the aid of CELL?

4. have they overcome vertex shader problem without the aid of CELL?

5. have they overcome tessellation (geometry amplification) problem without the aid of CELL?

Note that LogLuv/Integer HDR and FXAA (post processing AA) works on desktop Geforce 7.

Workarounds usually has compute penalty associated with it.

ronvalencia

You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.

And tessellation? RSX is aout as good at tessellation as Xenos's weak tesselltion unit.

Killzone 2 didn't have HDR hence it avoided RSX's HDR FP + MSAA design issue.

Killzone 3, it used MLAA instead of MSAA and it avoided RSX's MSAA + HDR design issue.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"]

You only have to look at games like Uncharted, Killzone and other high profile games to know that they have got around most if not all of the problems.

And tessellation? RSX is aout as good at tessellation as Xenos's weak tesselltion unit.

mrfrosty151986

Killzone 2 didn't have HDR hence it avoided RSX's HDR FP + MSAA design issue.

Killzone 3, it used MLAA instead of MSAA and it avoided RSX's MSAA + HDR design issue.

KillZone 2 doesn't have HDR. Find it in http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/dr_kz2_rsx_dev07.pdf

PS; In addition to deferred render pass, Killzone 2's SPUs runs forward render pass (slide 43). Killzone 2 is a hybrid renderer.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

Killzone 2 didn't have HDR hence it avoided RSX's HDR FP + MSAA design issue.

Killzone 3, it used MLAA instead of MSAA and it avoided RSX's MSAA + HDR design issue.

ronvalencia

KillZone 2 doesn't have HDR. Find it in http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/dr_kz2_rsx_dev07.pdf

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] They both use HDR, just not FP based HDR... there's also been games on 360 which don't do FP based HDR And they don't do MSAA because KZ is run on a deferred based render and frame buffer requirements for MSAA would be silly high. 360 has the same problems,mrfrosty151986

KillZone 2 doesn't have HDR. Find it in http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/dr_kz2_rsx_dev07.pdf

That's the problem with exclusive titles i.e. they don't run with the same datasets with the same image quality targets.

KillZone 2 doesn't have HDR. Find it in http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/dr_kz2_rsx_dev07.pdf

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] Halo 4 doesn't have SSAO or dynamic lights.. developers had to remove those features to get native 720p rendering.mrfrosty151986

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] They both use HDR, just not FP based HDR... there's also been games on 360 which don't do FP based HDR And they don't do MSAA because KZ is run on a deferred based render and frame buffer requirements for MSAA would be silly high. 360 has the same problems,mrfrosty151986

KillZone 2 doesn't have HDR. Find it in http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/dr_kz2_rsx_dev07.pdf

On Crysis 2, Xbox 360 has higher rendering resolution over PS3 i.e. Xbox 360's 1152x720 vs PS3's 1024x720.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] That's the problem with exclusive titles i.e. they don't run on the same datasets with the same image quality targets. ronvalencia

KillZone 2 doesn't have HDR. Find it in http://www.guerrilla-games.com/publications/dr_kz2_rsx_dev07.pdf

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] Halo 3 run at subHD because of the EDRAM....mrfrosty151986

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] It's due to double HDR FP buffers. ronvalencia

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] And? 360 games use Xenon to help Xenos too...mrfrosty151986

WTF is this. Leave me out it.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] It's due to the EDRAM...... they couldn't fit it all in 10mb as the game didn't support tiling.... major design flaw that has caused loads of games to be under 720p. PGR3 was a very early victim of this, also has no AF texturing due to Xenos sucking at it.mrfrosty151986

This again. Only a cow will repeat the mistake by Eurogamer.

In reference to http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry and I quote.

"In the meantime, what we have is something that's new and genuinely exciting from a technical standpoint. We're seeing PS3 attacking a visual problem using a method that not even the most high-end GPUs are using."

Eurogamer didn't factor in AMD's http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/AA-HPG09.pdf

It was later corrected by Christer Ericson, director of tools and technology at Sony Santa Monica and I quote

"The screenshots may not be showing MLAA, and it's almost certainly not a technique as experimental as we thought it was, but it's certainly the case that this is the most impressive form of this type of anti-aliasing we've seen to date in a console game. Certainly, as we alluded to originally, the concept of using an edge-filter/blur combination isn't new, and continues to be refined. This document by Isshiki and Kunieda published in 1999 suggested a similar technique, and, more recently, AMD's Iourcha, Yang and Pomianowski suggested a more advanced version of the same basic idea".

AMD's Iourcha, Yang and Pomianowski's papers refers to http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/AA-HPG09.pdf

To quote AMD's paper "This filter is the basis for the Edge-Detect Custom Filter AA driver feature on ATI Radeon HD GPUs".

Eurogamer's "not even the most high-end GPU are using" assertion would be wrong. From top to bottom GPUs, current ATI GPUs supports Direct3D 10.1 and methods menstioned AMD's AA paper.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] Xbox 360's CPU assistance for the GPU is less than PS3.ronvalencia

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] You would be suprised what developers are doing over memexport. The problem with you is that your an AMD fan boy which it clouding your feelings towards RSX as it's made by Nvidia. Xenos is far from perfect, one of the issues that it tends to suffer the most compared to RSX is texture filtering, RSX while not being amazing at it does handle better then Xenos does. It also suffers from banding in a few games due to be pretty much limited to FP10 HDR compared to FP16 HDR on RSX, but yet you don't mention any of these defects? I've also noticed that you have not talked about how using predicted tiling causes shaders, vertex meshes and other assets to be calculated 3-4x due to overlapping tiles? How about it's poor implementation of EDRAM? And how that causes development problems and has been the main reason why most games run at subHD on 360? You don't talk about any of that and yet only insist on bashing RSX because you either don't like Sony or you don't like nvidia.mrfrosty151986

If you are a senior member on Beyond3D, you missed Sony's correction on Eurogamer's Saboteur MLAA claims.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] WTF is this. Leave me out it. ronvalencia

If you are a senior member on Beyond3D, you missed Sony's correction on Eurogamer's Saboteur MLAA claims.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] Halo 4 doesn't have SSAO or dynamic lights.. developers had to remove those features to get native 720p rendering.mrfrosty151986

Only on certain stages and it doesn't affect the majority of the game. Again, it's a give and take in relation to Xbox 360 vs PS3. Still matches David Shippy's statement on Xbox 360 and PS3 roughtly being equal.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] I would like to see a better response to that post please, you seem to jump at the chance at bashing RSX but yet avoid it when someone lays down had facts about Xenos's faults..... I've been a senior member on Beyond3D now for getting on 6 years and have read all the technical threads and spoken to pretty much every developers that registered on there about both machines strengths and weaknesses so I can run you into the ground if I wish. But it's just too funny though watching you posting crap and thinking you know what you're talking about.mrfrosty151986

If you are a senior member on Beyond3D, you missed Sony's correction on Eurogamer's Saboteur MLAA claims.

You claimed MLAA for Saboteur and Sony corrected this point.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

If you are a senior member on Beyond3D, you missed Sony's correction on Eurogamer's Saboteur MLAA claims.

ronvalencia

You claimed MLAA for Saboteur and Sony corrected this point.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] It doesn't about the origins of the tech, PS3 a version of MLAA and 360 has no AA at all.... despite having a 'faster' GPU. Please respond to to post listing Xenos's flaws and why you have no commented on them.mrfrosty151986

You claimed MLAA for Saboteur and Sony corrected this point.

You still used MLAA with Saboteur.

HDR FP10 issue doesn't significantly affect Xbox 360's GpGPU compute capbility if HDR FP wasn't the target workload.

The problem is with NEC designed eDRAM which contains rendering backend units.

It doesn't about the origins of the tech, PS3 a version of MLAA and 360 has no AA at all.... despite having a 'faster' GPU. Please respond to to post listing Xenos's flaws and why you have no commented on them.mrfrosty151986

You claimed MLAA for Saboteur and Sony corrected this point.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

You claimed MLAA for Saboteur and Sony corrected this point.

ronvalencia

You claimed MLAA for Saboteur and Sony corrected this point.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] And yet you still avoid my Xenos question.... fanboy much And please don't call me a cow, I've never owned a PS3.mrfrosty151986

I doesn't see HDR as part of it's rendering features i.e. it has bloom and other effects.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"] And yet you still avoid my Xenos question.... fanboy much And please don't call me a cow, I've never owned a PS3.mrfrosty151986

Well, RSX has it's own problem with the lack of 3DC+ texture compression support.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] I have corrected your Killzone 2's HDR assertions with a source document.ronvalencia

I doesn't see HDR as part of it's rendering features i.e. it has bloom and other effects.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] You still used MLAA with Saboteur. HDR FP10 issue doesn't effect Xbox 360's GpGPU compute capbility if HDR FP wasn't the target workload. The problem is with NEC designed eDRAM.ronvalencia

There's more then one way to compress things.

I did not see where it stated that it did not have HDR? mrfrosty151986

I doesn't see HDR as part of it's rendering features i.e. it has bloom and other effects.

[QUOTE="mrfrosty151986"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

I doesn't see HDR as part of it's rendering features i.e. it has bloom and other effects.

ronvalencia

But I am curious, is it Sony you dislike or nvidia? Or is it both?