Why Kobe is MVP, but will most likely get robbed, again...imo:

To factor team success into MVP voting is wrong because it doesn't take into consideration things that are beyond the MVP candidates control.

The Lakers even when healthy are an average team at best. Every team has injuries throughout the year but consider this, of the 80 games played:

Chris Mihm(starter) missed 80 games, Lamar Odom(starter) missed 27 games, Luke Walton(starter) missed 23 games, Kwame Brown(replacement/starter) missed 41 games,  V. Radmonovich(contributor who was starting to play well) missed 27 games.

In addition, the replacement for Mihm/K. Brown is a 19 year old kid. The Lakers point guard(Smush Parker) played shooting guard in college and would be a back-up on most other teams.

Yet MVP Kobe Bryant has led that injury riddled/youngest team in the NBA to a .500 ball. Kobe had the Lakers playing very well early in the season, they were several games above .500 even with key players out, but the injuries kept coming, an 8 game road trip and that was it. The losing understandably increased. Phil Jackson said "Kobe we need you to take over". He then played some of the best B-ball EVER seen, possibly single handidly saving the season(making the playoffs). He does  much more than score, and is coming off of knee surgery. Given the above circumstances Kobe is MVP imo.

If the Lakers don't make the playoffs it can't possibly be because of Kobe's play so why penalize him in the M. V. "PLAYER" race? He's the only reason they are anywhere close to 500. If Nash was on the Lakers in place of Kobe, with the injuries they've had, and coach said "Nash, we need you take over and get us some wins) could he have done what Kobe did.?

If Nash and Dirk lost key players (some at the same time), and had the youngest teams, where would they be? Nash and Dirk have vastly superior teammates, therefore they have vastly superior records. Nash or Dirk will get an individual award for the succes of their superior teams but Kobe will be penalized for the lack of success of his far inferior team even though he is the  better player(and his team has succeeded given the circumstances). 

Even last year if not for key shots by Tim Thomas in game 4 the Kobe led Lakers would have swept the Nash(MVP) Suns.

IMO  team-success has too much weight in the MVP voting, ifor me MVP is the best player in the league with the most valuable basketball skill-set, Kobe Bryant.

More to say, but its late.

sixringz1:

The "Kobe for MVP talk" stopped only because the Kobe/MJ comparison became more intense and dominated the thread, with a limited # of participants.

I wasn't one of those who supported KB for MVP solely based on his scoring splurg, but I do support him for MVP, scoring splurg or not.

Before I go further my questions for you are :

1) Do U consider the thought of "KB for MVP based on his scoring rampage" nonsense, or do you believe to consider Kobe for MVP scoring rampage or not as "nonsense" ? 

2) What is your definition of MVP( I don't believe the NBA has clearly defined it) ? 

3) Who do you believe should be MVP and why?

I'm about to take back all I said about Kobe if he does'nt start hittin' somethin! Man, seems like everytime I watch them that's when he has a bad game! :(   ..ha,ha)

Maybe be good for them to miss the playoffs, since I'd be shocked if te ygot out of the 1st rd. And if Kobe is going to play in some international games he won't get much rest for next season.

Missed the 4th quarter(taped, but may not watch it now). Kobe ain't shootin' so good against Phoenisx either...so far.

MJ is good a choice for GOAT as any....just think its impossible to say for sure.

Heard of Ricky Rubio? He's supposed to be the nex't.........

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/rickyrubio.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/ricky-rubio

Lakers loose!!!!, and I get called into work at 2:00am !! crap !!

Lakers just too young, inexperienced, injury prone and lack talent......but Turiaf should get more PT, that guy has heart/hustle and brings energy, even on the bench he's excited. I respect that.

Dear Kevin Garnett,

The climate is much nicer in L.A,...........Please!!!!!!!

"Great post. However, Jordan was more prepared for the idea of team play and leading a team since he played under Dean Smith in North Carolina while Kobe came straight out of high school. So, it's not just the whole MJ had the better cast, Jordan was nurtured to be a leader as he led NC in his college hoop days. Also, I would give slight edge in post moves to Jordan. Their ability and different moves to score back-to-the-basket are on par, however, Jordan was able to get better positioning in the post. I seen too many Laker games where, time to time, Kobe was forced out of the paint and had to catch the ball out of lane and out on th wing. MJ had a knack for holding his own in the paint a tiny bit better than Kobe."

Thanks. Yeah, I knew I left something out. That's why I said I could change scores either way, or add categories. When I listed "inside" I meant drives to the basket. I forgot about "post ups", but I would give an edge to MJ too.

 Yes MJ was more prepared as a leader having college experience, but imo it didn't show until his support cast improved. I would describe MJ as "frustrated" in the early days.  He felt the best option to win was him, probably rightfully so, but in the process he alienated teammates, coach....etc. I stopped in a book store years ago and flipped through a book about those early days. MJ was pretty hard in a negative, demeaning way in the locker room on his teammates.

Even Horace Grant was quoted as saying that MJ said somethings to him that he couldn't take and still fill good about himself as a man. If I remember correctly this after they had won a ring or two(so he must have felt pretty strong abvout it). The book suggested Grant was glad about being traded to Orlando. It also said MJ was pretty brutal to Stacey King also.  I just would'nt describe him as a good leader early on. When they finally got a good mix of talented players around him, then he became one of the greatest leaders of all-time. People say MJ made his teammates better, I think its more true that they made MJ better, by bringing out his innate leadership ability & team play by virtue of the skills they had. Their skill made MJ realize that he could trust them(Pippen, Kerr.....etc) ,MJ didn't "make" any of them imo, they had whatever skills previously. MJ made more of a change in his style of play, trusting players , the system(triangle) and coach...then he became known as a great leader.

 Watching the Lakers/Clippers.....I tend to wacth individual players closely and what they can do. Kobe is just an amazing player!!!! I just don't get why people can't enjoy the skill set he brings. They view him as selfish, but in the first half alone he already has thrown great passes to open teammates who simply missed the shot. That's why assists are a deceptive way to measure unselfishness. Some will call it jocking, but I really think Kobe is an offensive genius. Theres something majestical about the way he gets his shots off and plays in general. Even the shots he misses are "nice", due goes for steal, KB wraps it around his back, raises for the J off the backboard that misses, but it was a beautiful play.

Kobe 3 !!! good, boy is just "bad"!

Since someone asked: Kobe  vs   MJ 
                              
 This is how I would rate them on "B-Ball talent" (The only fair way to compare them,imo)

Average = 1.0,    Good = 2.0,     Great = 3.0,   4.0 = Ridiculous! (Highest score( no 10ths)
                                         .1 to .9 = between the grade    

            Categories:                           Kobe            MJ

1.        Atheleticism                            4.0               4.0
2.        Ball Handling                          4.0               3.5  Come on, give it up for KB                      
3.        Inside game                           4.0               4.0
4.        Mid range                               3.8               4.0  Slight edge to MJ
5.        Long range                             4.0               2.5  Definite edge to KB
6.        Passing                                  2.5               2.5  Neither are Magic, but good
7.        Scoring                                  4.0               3.7  Long range gives KB edge.                  
8.        Free Throws                            2.8               2.8  Fractional difference              
9.        Will (to win/excel)                   3.8               4.0  Whatever, MJ can have it
10.        Defense(man to man)           3.0               4.0 Happy ?
11.        Rebounding                          2.5               2.8
12.        Clutch!                                  3.5               4.0
13.        Leadership                            3.0               4.0 Only cause MJ had a better cast
14.        Total                                     44.9                  45.8

 Comments:

1  Both are top line atheletes, in different ways
2  Kobe does have a better handle. MJ was more likely to fake then, blow by or jump over, Kobe has that and corssover..etc 
3  Both can get to the basket. MJ in a more dynamic, attacking way, Kobe
with a combination of grace, power and athleticism. Both can do what the other does, but they are somewhat different in the overall way they do it. 
4  Slight edge to MJ  because it was more his strength as he got older, but Kobe is right there too.
5  Sorry I won't compromise on this, Kobe's range is RIDICULOUS, he shoots the 30 footer like it's a 20 footer.
10  MJ was more tenacious on D in his prime.
12  I'll give the edge to MJ only because he did it over a longer time, but Kobe has only had  his "own team" for a short while. Kobe is a big time clutch, dramatic shot maker. But that's one of the problems with all this. Were comparing a guy's complete career to a guy maybe 2/3rds through his.
13 Once again, Kobe is on a mediocre to bad team, so he won't be judged as good a leader as the 6 ring MJ Bulls. But for me,  considering his support cast, injuries, conference...etc. Kobe has done well. You can't give someone a jalopy and expect him to make it run like a Mercedes no matter how good a mechanic he is.

I could go up or down on any of these or even change/add categories. Achievement wise MJ has a big lead, talent wise they are close.  In my opinion.......OK your thoughts????????

P.S: Don't know if it will happen but I hope Kobe does win more rings, just to show it doesn't stop with MJ, that its more God. God will bless another young kid with great talent, who may be dribbling a ball right now, thinking of ways to take it to another level. 

"I agree with most of those things u said, but 80% of those things u listed i didn't say.I never said kobe shoots 35%.(I said he shoots a lower %).I already said that Mj was selfish in his early years.If kobe could drive like Mj he would.I also didn't say anything about coaches.U skip one of my ?s.What about the stat that if u include everything(PPG,SPG,blks etc..) Mj has a way higher one in his prime then kobe does now?"

I didn't have time to trace back and see who said what. Thats why I didn't name names, I just know they were said. So whatever part fits whomever, thats who its for. 

 Kobe can/does drive like MJ, just not as much. I can make a similar statement saying, if MJ could shoot from long range like Kobe he would. Its just a differene in their games, the 3 is a bigger weapon for Kobe, than it was for MJ, consequently MJ's fg% is higher. 

As far as MJ's combined stats being higher, cool. But to ignore some of the reasons why and just assume MJ is just "way" better is wrong. Their situations are different, minutes played were different(which is why I broke it down on a minutes played basis, its just more accurate, which reflects tha tthe different is not as great). Kobe stas are "floating" because he's still playing. Your comparing a guys full career to one in progress. The teammates are different: Kobe had Shaq for a while so he wasn't going to drive as much with Shaq taking up space, so not as many dunks/layups, more outside shots, lower fg%. EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE. But you keep debating as if I said Kobe is better than MJ, I didn't. I only listed one area so far where I think KB is better. 

To dkhw: 

Finally!!!, an oasis of reason blooming in the vast desert of illogic, closed mindedness, and unreasonableness! Thanks, dkhw, although youv've been reasonable the whole time, (I was checkin your posts). Notice I've said most of what you said: Kobe is a better scorer, I would give MJ the edge on defense, I don't know if MJ was the more "intelligent scorer" more than 3 pt shooting wasn't his strength so he just did'nt shoot as many, it is a strength of Kobe so he shoots more(just another way to look at it). However I do agree that Kobe should drive more, that would be of my criticisms of his game.

You're also right that these dudes won't be satisfied.....and have been very biased and closed minded, thats why I decided today to stop wasting my time. If someone says Kobe shoots 35%, and are proven wrong you gotta say "you got me on that" When they say Kobe shoots 50 times a game, then are proven wrong you gotta say "you got me on that". When you criticize Kobe for 0 assists, then are shown where MJ did the same you gotta say "you got me on that". When you criticize KB for being a bad leader and claim MJ was a good one from day 1, then are reminded of MJ's selfish years you have to back off that statement.

 When you say Kobe doesn't make his teammates better, MJ did, then are reminded that KB is on a subpar team and that MJ was not a good leader when he had a subpar team then you have to concede the point. When you criticize Kobe for running his coach off, then are reminded of MJ's issues with Doug Collins(who may speak highly of him now, but they had issues back then) then you have to say "yeah, your're right on that"

When you falsely conclude that based on fga% MJ is as good an outside shooter as Kobe without considering the differences in their games and types of shots taken its just wrong(fga% doesn't tell the whole story). When you say The Lakers were not in decline when the Bulls beat them in the finals then are told about no Jabbar, no Cooper, no P. Riley, hurt worthy, hurt B scott, and how they struggelld to make th finals you must admit they wer in decline. The Bulls won fair and square but theLakers were in decline no doubt. Those are just some of the points I've made, all seem logical to me.         To not do any of the above is intellectually dishonest and definitely Jordan Jocking

Anyway since my man did finally say I had a point on KB's fg% in big games , I'll say this...I did over state my position on the Showtime Lakers vs MJ Bulls (72 win). The Lakers may not "wax" them, but imo in a 7 game series its L.A. 4- Bulls 3. Thats simply opinion, its very debatable. Winning 72 against the comp. then, doesn't automatically mean they would beat the Showtime Lakers or Celtics at full strength, thats another level of competition.

While you're checking KB's fg% in other big games, PLEASE  check games in which MJ shot 80%.

Y'all act like I shot MJ, but I mostly posted logical, reasonable thoughts. I haven't even said KB is better. Career acheivements and b-ball skill are different. Heres a more fair artical on Kobe /MJ. Thy guy would pick MJ over Kobe but is fair in giving credit to Kobe when due....which is what I expected here.....

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2007/03/mike-wilbon-and-new-math.html

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2007/03/dan-patrick-mike-wilbon-podcast-part-ii.html

Man !  Can't a guy eat his dinner without the kids wanting to play! I was done with this, but since U asked my opinion on something I will answer later. Now I'm going to eat and watch the news instead of dealings with folks stuck in the 80's-90's! Ther's a new Sherrif in town, his name is Kobe Bryant, get over it. I grew up on Dr. J, my favorite of all-time! He was just as good as MJ in the ABA....but thats another story.....

Anyway, you said in most of Kobe's big games he shot 45%..... I show U 4 games in a row where he shot much better than 45%, and a 5th where he shot 60+. Obviously proving U wrong and you still don't concede the point. This has happened time and time again on this forum, so I'm am wasting my time. I call it intelectual dishonesty.

 The "3" is a dangersous & effective weapon for Kobe, and any fair minded person knows you can't count shooting % the same as someone who doesn't shoot as many. It gives a false indication that some players who did not shoot as many 3's are better than Reggie Miller for example.

All my numbers are good, fair and acceptable.

A proper response is "You got me on that one dude, my bad" . Thats when I loose respect for guys, over and over it has happened.  Now Daddy is going to eat dinner.

By the way, I don't and didn't threaten people with violence. I said you're lucky I'm a nice guy because I could have said something else besides giving MJ a "back-rub".