1) Hey " It is I"...MJ did punch Steve kerr in a fight(fair or not) it happened in practice!

2)MJ did not go through all generations.....He didn't get past the Celtics and Lakers until their teams were in the decline. The Pistons went through the MJ Bulls for 2 straight rings. None of the teams the Bulls beat for rings including Utah) were better than the Bird Celtics, Magic Lakers or Dr.J 76'ers(with M. Malone, Cheeks, Toney, B. Jones..etc). MJ's/Bulls peaked at the time the other great teams declined.

By the way remember when Kobe lit MJ up for some ridiculous point total..... by half time, and the win, probably not. 

3) "Kobe is a black hole player"   What! Kobe averages 5.4 assists a game(good for a 2 guard) on a crappy team. An assist is a 2 man thing, the other player has to make the shot. Kobe has Kwame"fumble fingers" Brown to pass to, he has no Kerr/Paxson yet he still gets 5.4 assists per game (and also chips in 5.6 rbs, also good for a 2 guard). The Kobe is a ball-hog argument does not hold up. For the record MJ career assist = 5.3 which is only less than 1 more than Kobes career so far, even with the limited minutes Kobe played early on.

4) "Kobe has no clue how to play defense" .....I guess thats why he's been voted to the all-defense teams several times.

5) "Kobe doesn't create fear/frustration in his opponents" OMG!! Kobe has been called the best and most feared player in the game by other coaches, players and analysts, period!

Its ok to love/like MJ or consider him the best, but please don't act like he came into the NBA a great defender, great leader, winning rings and playing in harmony with his teammates and coach from day 1. IT DID NOT HAPPEN LIKE THAT!

Truth: MJ came into the NBA with the biggest ego, selfish, gunning, wanting to prove himself, alienated some teammates, and coach(who got fired), was not a good leader, was not known for defense, shot a lot, thus scored a lot, but was frustrated by more seasoned and complete TEAMS. Until those teams declined and MJ finally got a good team of complimentary players around him and went on a tear winning 6 rings with one of the best all-round players ever (Scottie Pippen), one of the better P forwards(Horace Grant), 2 of the best sharp shooters(Kerr/Paxson), one of the best rebounders/defenders/garbage men ever(D. Rodman), a decent center (B. Cartwright), great coach, unigue system (triangle)...etc. They all clicked as a team, result 6 rings. MJ did not do that with Sam Vincent, Stacey King, Granville Waiters...etc. He had to wait, like kobe does until the right mix of players are acquired. Sorry to be so long but it takes that to dispel the myths about MJ, a very great player nonetheless, maybe the best, impossible to say.

No, he did not puch them. He threw the ball at his (S. Kerr) face for continously messing up the plays they ran in practice. [QUOTE="yrag31"]yeah but worst teamate ever did you know he punched Steve Kerr and Will Perdue in their practice back then...It_is_I

 Yes MJ did punch Kerr, look it up. Early on MJ was a ballhog, clashed with coach and teammates, tanked a game...etc.

 As mentioned there is no single greatest player of all time, just the latest, like it or not thats Kobe Bryant. Enjoy his B'ball talent without comparing him to MJ

No, he did not puch them. He threw the ball at his (S. Kerr) face for continously messing up the plays they ran in practice. [QUOTE="yrag31"]yeah but worst teamate ever did you know he punched Steve Kerr and Will Perdue in their practice back then...It_is_I

 Yes MJ did punch Kerr, look it up. Early on MJ was a ballhog, clashed with coach and teammates, tanked a game...etc.

 As mentioned there is no single greatest player of all time, just the latest, like it or not thats Kobe Bryant. Enjoy his B'ball talent without comparing him to MJ

"Long range ability does not make a player "better". Jordan had about the best mid range jump shot EVER."

I didn't say being a better long range shooter makes Kobe a better all-round player than MJ.  I said Kobe is a better "scorer"..... because his long range ability gives him an edge over MJ as far as scoring goes. They both can get to the basket and have great mid-range shots. 

Comparing skill for skill is the only way to compare them, all other accomplishmenst are based on quality of teammates. If people can say defense is what makes MJ better its only fair to point out where Kobe is better than MJ skill-wise.

Out of several points I made why pick that small point to comment on, please comment on my OTHER points in my last post,..PLEASE ! 

[QUOTE="dkhw"][QUOTE="andyboiii"]I just watched kobe hit 65 points in a laker win today, the man is god like nickdastick

So why is it that scoring a lot of points means you're great? Kobe is good but he lacks in so many areas. He isn't a leader at all which is something that all teams need and he shoots a horrid %. I could make a lot of points too if you gave me over 50 shots a game because if I only make 35% of them (18 shots more of less) I will have around 42 pts (6 of those are 3's) without shooting any FT's but 35% is pathetic! He and AI do that all the time. They score a high number but they have a % that is just pathetic! LeBron scores plenty but he helps his team get into it too. He's a much better team player overall which is huge. Not to mention he shoots a better percentage and is already reaching marks faster than Kobe did.

Kobe does not shoot 35% or a "horrid fg% for a 2 guard and someone who shoots as many 3's as he does., check it out. Kobe is a good leader, and has sacrificed for his team, teammates speak highly of him, he even hangs out with them now, plus he has led an injury ridden, youngest team in the NBA to a + .500 winning percentage in the tougher conference.

 The first part of his career MJ was exactly what the Jordan Jockers hate in Kobe. MJ was a great talent, but considered a ballhog, clashed with his coach(Doug Collins) who was fired, tanked a game when critized for shooting too much, didn't get along with some of his teammates...etc.

 MJ did'nt make anyone better, he had to wait until he got better players around him. Why didn't MJ make Stacey King, Sam Vincent and Granville better???  Kobe Can't turn Kwame Brown into Dennis Rodman, no more than MJ could turn Stacey King into Horace Grant. Kobe can't make Smush Parker shoot like Steve Kerr no more than MJ could make Sam Vincent shoot like John Paxson! Some players got better when MJ retired, they were scacrificing their game while playing with MJ.

Kobe came on to an established team that didn't need to play a rookie out of highschool, MJ had the green light on a bad team from day 1. Thats why he sored more, he shot more, more than anyone since Elgin Baylor. If Bird and others shot as much as MJ they would have scoring titles also.

Skill for skill MJ has the edge on defense over Kobe, but Kobe is a better scorer due to his long range ability. For minutes played their assist averages are about the same.   Enjoy Kobe  one of the best players you will ever see!

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/   Please check this out !!!!

"Regardless of what you might think, the only that matters is that Jordan has achieved a hell of a lot more than Kobe. Despite the fact that Kobe is a great player, he has a lot of catching up to do."

Sorry to cloud the issue with those facts, but regardless of what you might think, MJ did not get those acheivements in a vacuum, or on his own. He was the most talented part of well put togehter TEAMS. When he did not have a well put together team he scored a lot because he shot a lot, he has the 2nd higest FGA in history Eigin Baylor is first by a hair. But AGAIN, during those times MJ was not the great leader you think he was. HE WAS VERY SELFISH!!!!

Kobe does not have to catch up to anybody. Kobe should do the best he can with the team he's on and the current level of competition in the league. Kobe is no less a player because he hasn't matched MJ stat for stat or ring for ring. If they played in parallel universes, on the same teams, in the same era, with the same coach, with the same level of competition, under the same rules...only then can you compare their accomplishments fairly.

All I'm trying to tell all of you is MJ had his Day, he was a GREAT player, maybe the greatest. He also had several negatives that people want to forget, but choose to remember in Kobe.

Kobe is a great talent, he may or may not win another ring, but I'm telling you in Kobe Bryant you are seeing one of the GREATEST B-Ball players you will ever see, enjoy it. 

I never said making a tougher j is the only criteria for greatness. When comparing the B-Ball skills of MJ and Kobe, Kobe's J is better than MJ's period ! Don't read more into it. Some keep saying MJ is better skill-wise because of his tougher D, its only fair to point out where Kobe is better than MJ, right???!

 Because some don't care about history doesn't make it unimportant. MJ did not invent B-ball, he saw other greats before him and built on that.

"but when it comes to the best overall player in NBA ever, this means (offense, athleticism, defense, team-defense, leadership, passion for the game) hands down it's all MJ". 

MJ is not better offensively than Kobe, Kobe is as atheletic as they come, MJ has the edge on D, team D is not a consideration unless each player has the same supporting cast, Kobe's passion for the game is UN QUESTIONABLE!, that leaves "LEADERSHIP"

MJ only "became" a "good leader" when he had a good team around him, before that he was known as a selfish ballhog, coach killer!. Kobe has the the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NBA, that has had major injuries to STARTERS, but STILL HAS his sub-par team ABOVE 500 AND 2ND IN HIS DIVISION, in the tougher conference, his teammates and coach speak highly of him and his LEADERSHIP...but still no love for Kobe!.... sickening! 

MJ never made his teamates better! Kerr and Paxson came into the league with one skill, shooting! They left with that one skill! Playing with MJ didn't make them better defenders, rebounders, shot blockers, etc.

Pippen was a good all round player in college, when MJ first retired Pippen became 1 of 2 players IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA to lead his team in 4 catagories(points, rbs, assists and steals), Dave Cowens was the other.

BJ Armstrong made the all-star team for the 1st time when MJ retired. Horace Grant made the all-star team for the first time when he was traded to Orlando. They were better players away from MJ.

D. Rodman was already a great rebounder/defender/garbage man before he came to the Bulls and MJ. Playing with MJ didn't make him an offensive force, Rodman just did what he always did!

Players have to have talent and improve on it themselves. Why didn't MJ make Stacey King, Granville Waiters, or Sam Vincent better??? He couldn't , he was frustrated and had to wait until they got better players!

 Kobe can't turn Kwame Brown into Carl Malone no more than MJ could turn Stacey King into Dennis Rodman! Kobe can't make Smush Parker shoot like Steve Kerr no more than MJ could make Sam Vincent shoot like J. Paxson.

See why history is important! It makes you a better/fairer judge of whats really going on. MJ does get too much credit, which is why its fair to say he's OVER- RATED! The Bulls simply found the best cast and team formula/chemistry to put around his great talent, that's why they won! His t-mates sacrificed their games for the center piece MJ(as they should have) but MJ didn't make them better players.

When MJ first retired the Bulls only lost 2 MORE GAMES THAN THE PREVIOUS SEASON! The Bulls winning had more to do with the team formula and having the right complementary players in place. If/When Kobe gets that watch people sing his praises as a leader, but fair minded people can see he is doing fine as a leader with what he has now. 

"Yes, Kobe can make the tougher jump shots especially the three. I agree with that."

Thanks, thats what I'm looking for honest debate/opinions. I'm not saying Kobe is better because of his long range ability, just that he is better than MJ in that area. That can off-set the one reason most say MJ is better ...defense. During his middle years MJ was more tenacious on D, but Kobe is no slouch on D either.

I agree also that U can't compare careers, its all relative.  I just don't like hearing Kobe get so much hate in general when he has grown as a player and person. He is a supreme talent standing on the shoulders of MJ, who stood on the shoulders of Dr. J, who stood on the shoulders of Connie Hawkins, who stood on the shoulders of Elgin Bailor.... 

"MJ also has put up incredible, just straight-up outrageous shots (like coming from the foul line to dunk a missed FT). MJ has made more difficult shots than Kobe. Also, you foget that MJ played in a much more defensive oriented era, but still managed to score over 30 6 straight years. But this doesn't take away anything from Kobe. Kobe also has to play in a ridiculously star-ridden Western Conference, having to go up against super teams like Dallas, Houston, SA, and Suns. "  

As far as difficult shots I was speaking of jumpers, especially long range. MJ could not stroke the long J like Kobe with guys all over him. I haven't forgotten anythng about the MJ era. Tougher D, maybe, also no zone to deal with back then. The league is trying to play tough D on Kobe but can't deal with him.

MJ didn't make Title runs until the Celtics and Lakers were in the decline. MJ has a higher scoring average only because he had the green light from day 1. Surely you can see this.

MJ didn't make anyone better. His teammates sacrificed their games so MJ could shine in a system designed around him.