no actually i'm an orioles fan, but that's why i'm so familiar w/ the AL east
sixringz1's forum posts
No im more baseball than any other sport it's just that people don't talk about it much in these forums. "He's pitched well" is a relative term. I mean if you want to compare him to Halliday, Santana, Greinke, Beckett, etc. than no. But it's been a few years since Penny was blowing everybody away in the All Star game. He's not that guy anymore. But if you take it for what he's worth, he's done well overall, and especially of late. He's given up 12 earned runs in his last 5 starts. That's just over 2 a game. And that's in the AL, and the AL east for that matter. 1 of those games was against the yanks, 2 against toronto and 1 against Texas. Those are 3 of the best hitting teams in baseball. He couldn't do that for the Dodgers even against the minor league offenses that make up the National League West. So yea he's pitched well enough to get some interest at the trade deadline that can help the sox maybe get a left handed reliever or even prospects. It was a zero risk all reward move by Bos and it looks like Theo got another one right.[QUOTE="sixringz1"]
[QUOTE="X360PS3AMD05"]He's pitched well? You must be a basketball guy i guess........
barcx17
I can't believe you have me defending brad penny. lol
Oh yeah, I guess he didn't go 16-4 with a 3.03ERA, 1.31 WHIP, and 135K's in 2007 against the NL West "minor league" offense that included: Todd Helton (17HR, 91RBI), Matt Holliday (37HR, 137RBI), Troy Tulowitzki (24HR, 99RBI), Garrett Atkins (25HR, 111RBI), Eric Byrnes (21HR, 81RBI), Mark Reynolds (17HR, 62RBI), Conor Jackson (32HR, 68RBI), Barry Bonds (28HR 66RBI), Pedro Feliz (20HR, 72RBI), Bengie Molina (19HR 81RBI), Pedro Feliz (20HR, 72RBI), Adrian Gonzalez (30HR, 100RBI), Khalil Greene (27HR, 97RBI), and Mike Cameron (27HR, 78RBI). :|
i was talking about last year. He was injured a lot and pitched very poorly when healthy. If LA thought he could still pitch at that level he'd still be a Dodger. He's not that elite pitcher anymore. I don't think Boston or anyone else that would have picked him up thought to themselves he was gonna go 16-4. And please don't pull out stats of that division cause offensively it's a joke. There's a reason that division has ONE title in the last 20 years. I mean pedro feliz 20 hr 72 rbi's, eric byrnes 21 hr, 81 rbi's, Mark Reynolds 17 hr and 62 rbi,etc. Those aren't elite numbers. Those are average numbers AT BEST in the AL east,. A player like Nick Swisher puts up those numbers on a yearly basis, and he's probably like the 30th best hitter in the AL east RIGHT NOW.The only players you mentioned on that list i'll give you are the Rockies players because other than Helton they all had career years. You can see what they've done since. Atkins is batting .198 right now nearly halfway through the season, Tulowitzki is looking like he's gonna be a bust. back to back poor years after a great rookie season. Holliday is projected to hit 21 hrs and 99 rbi's which is good, but a significant drop for someone like him. Also, bonds, connor jackson, Molina (cause those are good numbers for a catcher) and Adrian Gonzalez. The rest of those players are average hitters in the AL east.
I know you're a Dodger fan but that division is a joke offensively, especially this year. LA should win that division by 25 games. Each team other than LA has 1 MAYBE 2 legit quality hitters. I mean SD has Gonzalez, who else? They don't have ONE regular batting over .270. That's a joke. The Rockies have Helton and Hawpe and Barmes has been solid SO FAR, but that's it. SF has Molina and Sandoval, and a couple solid vets in rowand and winn, but other that Molina NONE of them will hit 20 HR's or drive in 100 rbi's. And finally AZ. This team is a mess. Other than Upton and Reynolds everyone in that lineup is having a terrible year.
The bottom line to all this is that the NL West is a horrilbe hitting division and if Penny couldn't go better than 6-9 with a 6.28 era against them last year who in their right mind thought he could be successful in the AL east. Gammons, Olney, etc all were saying how they thought he would get smashed this year FOR THE SAME EXACT REASON. So if you don't wanna believe me, i'm sure you'll listen to them. He's been solid for the sox and will be good bait come the trade deadline
He's pitched well? You must be a basketball guy i guess........No im more baseball than any other sport it's just that people don't talk about it much in these forums. "He's pitched well" is a relative term. I mean if you want to compare him to Halliday, Santana, Greinke, Beckett, etc. than no. But it's been a few years since Penny was blowing everybody away in the All Star game. He's not that guy anymore. But if you take it for what he's worth, he's done well overall, and especially of late. He's given up 12 earned runs in his last 5 starts. That's just over 2 a game. And that's in the AL, and the AL east for that matter. 1 of those games was against the yanks, 2 against toronto and 1 against Texas. Those are 3 of the best hitting teams in baseball. He couldn't do that for the Dodgers even against the minor league offenses that make up the National League West. So yea he's pitched well enough to get some interest at the trade deadline that can help the sox maybe get a left handed reliever or even prospects. It was a zero risk all reward move by Bos and it looks like Theo got another one right.X360PS3AMD05
I can't believe you have me defending brad penny. lol
[QUOTE="sixringz1"]I won't get into a whole ordeal cause i've beat this topic to death the last couple years. I'll just comment on a couple things. First the "amount of talent" comment. Who in the Bird - Magic era was so great? The majority of the greats all played on the same team (i'll get to that later). I mean you wanna say Dr. J, Moses Malone, cool. But Jabaar and Worthy both played WITH Magic. Mchale and Parrish both played WITH Bird. You can throw Wilkins and Isaiah in there too but they went up with MJ in their prime too. Now lets look at the 90's when Jordan was dominating. Here is a list of some of the names on the First Team All NBA during that time - Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Ewing and Gary Payton to name a few. Every name i mentioned are FIRST BALLAD Hall of Famers and all with MAYBE the exception of Shaq were in their prime.[QUOTE="batman0811"] hey man say what you have to say, and lets see what sense you make, if your talking about my post rip it apart and lets see how stupid it really is
DrakeNOwns
"Jordan didn't win his first title til his 6th or 7th year" Yea and if you take away the marketing ploy that was the Washington Wizards, he also DIDN'T LOSE a title for his LAST 6 seasons. So nearly half of his career was spent winning championships and you are complaining about him not winning in his first few years.
As for the Pippen comment. He was great no denying, but he was not the 2nd best player in the league at any point during those title runs. He may have been the best small forward but not 2nd best player. And i always love how people bring up Rodman's name as if those first 3 titles didn't happen. Those first 3 titles consisted of 2 great players and a bunch of role players - PERIOD. I mean Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Craig Hansen, Cliff Livingston, John Paxon. COme on now.
Next point "when they got to the finals no other teams could handle the double threat of Jordan and Pippen". I'm missing the point on this one. Because they were "too good" they should be penalized? What? I mean the Jazz had Malone and Stockton in 2 consecutive finals but the Bulls handled them. Payton and Kemp were just as dynamic for Seattle in the mid 90's the bulls handled that. I'll just stop on that point cause i'm not sure what you are saying. That's like saying LA should be penalized this year if they win the title because the West was down.
Finally will get to your vote of Magic. I love Magic. I have nothing bad to say about him. But i will counter one of your main points. You talk about Jordan having Pippen, Magic had Jabaar AND Worthy as well as the best perimeter defender of his era in Cooper. So to say he "makes his teammates ten times better than Jordan" is pushing it considering more than half their roster consisted of Hall of Famer's or Perenial All Stars. You could say the same thing about Kobe now. When he had no talent on his team and he struggled to even get the 8 seed, he was looked at as a "bad teammate and someone who can't make anyone better", but now that he has far superior talent he's all the sudden "a great teammate and makes everyone better". He's theSAME PLAYERhe was back then he just trusts this group more. It's not hard to "make your teammates better" when THEY'RE ALREADY GREAT.
I said i wasn't gonna knock Magic cause i like him but you forced me to do this - THE ULTIMATE OWNAGE of this post - Magic Johnson NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER, made an NBA All Defensive team 1st OR 2nd team. You can't be mentioned as the "best" ever when you only contributed on one side of the floor. Then compare that to Jordan who in 9 of hist FULL 12 seasons with the Bulls (not counting 95 when he came out of retirement for the last month of the season) was not only on the All D team, he was FIRST TEAM EVERY TIME!
Sorry about the wall of text, but you asked me to counter. But in the end it's all opinion anyway. You're entitled to yours i wont knock it
In Magic's defense, he did win 2 championships with an aging Kareem. When the Lakers won back-to-back in the late 80's, it was pretty much Magic carrying the team, along with, ofcourse, Worthy's great performances. Those years were also his MVP years as well. So while Magic had a TON of talent, as the talent around him began to decline, he stepped his game up and led his team to back-to-back championships. Also defense was considered much more hard-nosed back in the day compared to the 90's. Also Hakeem had his best years in the late 80's, as did Stockton and Malone. People like Barkley and Drexler had their best seasons in the mid 80's. So the same people you mentioned that were in the 90's had their most dominate years in the 80's, playing against the likes of Magic and Larry. In the 90's, their output, though still outstanding, wasnt like what they did in the 80's, but with aging stars like Larry and Magic, they were finally able to establish themselves. Basically what im trying to say is that the 80's had much more talent, but a lot of them werent able to gain foothold until the 90's. i'll have to respectfully disagree on the part with those players best years were in the 80's. From a statistical standpoint you can make that argument, but from an overall team impact definitely not. Barkley had one MVP and one finals appearance in the 90's. Hakeem had one MVP and 2 titles in the 90's. Malone had 2 finals appearances and 2 MVP's in the 90's. The ONLY time Drexler was 1st team All NBA was in the 90's. The ONLY two times Stockton was 1st team All NBA was in the 90's. I understand your argument cause some of their highest statistical numbers came in the 80's on some of those players, but stats don't define greatness. I mean Jordan's 2 highest scoring years were in his 3rd and 4th season. There's no way you can tell me he was a BETTER or more COMPLETE player during those years than he was in the 90's. And i hate to knock Magic cause i do like him, but you can't avoid the fact that he was a liability on the defensive end. He NEVER even sniffed an NBA All Defensive team. This isn't the NFL where you have a certain group of players for offense and a certain group for defense. You have to do both. He's a great player and the best point guard ever in most peoples eyes, but to be mentioned as "THE BEST EVER" you have to be "THE BEST" on both ends of the floor.i've never had any opinion for cotto either way before this fight. I thought he was an elite fighter but i never rooted for, or against, him. After this fight i'm a fan. He could have easily complained to the ring doctor that his eye was too messed up after the 4th round and the fight would have been stopped and he would have won on points, but he didn't. He's like a welterweight rocky balboa. He might not be as skilled as other fighters but he's tough as hell and has more heart than all of em
ET for Atari. Majority of people on this board are too young to know about this game. It's unfair tosay that it single handidly was responsible for the Video Game crash of the early 80's but it had more of an impact than any other game.
[QUOTE="sixringz1"]I told you a little while ago, i've made a new resolution...Never comment on STUPID posts. There are a lot of them in this forum and that's the stuff that gets me modded. I guess when i argue i have an unfair advantage since i have the need to MAKE SENSE;). I could pick that post apart sentence by sentence but i'm not going to. Hell Mont you should be proud of me, 5 pages worth of posts on this topic and NONE of them are mine. :D If any of that stuff actually was intelligent and made sense i would, but it's impossible to argue with people who think like that. Their opinion is sooooooo far off that they wouldn't see the light no matter how many FACTS you throw at em. hey man say what you have to say, and lets see what sense you make, if your talking about my post rip it apart and lets see how stupid it really isI won't get into a whole ordeal cause i've beat this topic to death the last couple years. I'll just comment on a couple things. First the "amount of talent" comment. Who in the Bird - Magic era was so great? The majority of the greats all played on the same team (i'll get to that later). I mean you wanna say Dr. J, Moses Malone, cool. But Jabaar and Worthy both played WITH Magic. Mchale and Parrish both played WITH Bird. You can throw Wilkins and Isaiah in there too but they went up with MJ in their prime too. Now lets look at the 90's when Jordan was dominating. Here is a list of some of the names on the First Team All NBA during that time - Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Ewing and Gary Payton to name a few. Every name i mentioned are FIRST BALLAD Hall of Famers and all with MAYBE the exception of Shaq were in their prime.[QUOTE="mont13"]
Hummm. think I'll sit this one out and "watch the fall out"! :P Sixringz, where you at???:shock: You're not going to take this are you???
batman0811
"Jordan didn't win his first title til his 6th or 7th year" Yea and if you take away the marketing ploy that was the Washington Wizards, he also DIDN'T LOSE a title for his LAST 6 seasons. So nearly half of his career was spent winning championships and you are complaining about him not winning in his first few years.
As for the Pippen comment. He was great no denying, but he was not the 2nd best player in the league at any point during those title runs. He may have been the best small forward but not 2nd best player. And i always love how people bring up Rodman's name as if those first 3 titles didn't happen. Those first 3 titles consisted of 2 great players and a bunch of role players - PERIOD. I mean Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Craig Hodges, Craig Hansen, Cliff Livingston, John Paxon. COme on now.
Next point "when they got to the finals no other teams could handle the double threat of Jordan and Pippen". I'm missing the point on this one. Because they were "too good" they should be penalized? What? I mean the Jazz had Malone and Stockton in 2 consecutive finals but the Bulls handled them. Payton and Kemp were just as dynamic for Seattle in the mid 90's the bulls handled that. I'll just stop on that point cause i'm not sure what you are saying. That's like saying LA should be penalized this year if they win the title because the West was down.
Finally will get to your vote of Magic. I love Magic. I have nothing bad to say about him. But i will counter one of your main points. You talk about Jordan having Pippen, Magic had Jabaar AND Worthy as well as the best perimeter defender of his era in Cooper. So to say he "makes his teammates ten times better than Jordan" is pushing it considering more than half their roster consisted of Hall of Famer's or Perenial All Stars. You could say the same thing about Kobe now. When he had no talent on his team and he struggled to even get the 8 seed, he was looked at as a "bad teammate and someone who can't make anyone better", but now that he has far superior talent he's all the sudden "a great teammate and makes everyone better". He's theSAME PLAYERhe was back then he just trusts this group more. It's not hard to "make your teammates better" when THEY'RE ALREADY GREAT.
I said i wasn't gonna knock Magic cause i like him but you forced me to do this - THE ULTIMATE OWNAGE of this post - Magic Johnson NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER, made an NBA All Defensive team 1st OR 2nd team. You can't be mentioned as the "best" ever when you only contributed on one side of the floor. Then compare that to Jordan who in 9 of his 12 FULL seasons with the Bulls (not counting 95 when he came out of retirement for the last month of the season) was not only on the All D team, he was FIRST TEAM EVERY TIME!
Sorry about the wall of text, but you asked me to counter. But in the end it's all opinion anyway. You're entitled to yours i wont knock it
was watching live on WGN yesterday. I literally laughed out loud when i watched it. It wasn't even the fact that he didn't know how many outs there were, it was how he just stood there oblivious to what was going on. Absolute comedy
I told you a little while ago, i've made a new resolution...Never comment on STUPID posts. There are a lot of them in this forum and that's the stuff that gets me modded. I guess when i argue i have an unfair advantage since i have the need to MAKE SENSE;). I could pick that post apart sentence by sentence but i'm not going to. Hell Mont you should be proud of me, 5 pages worth of posts on this topic and NONE of them are mine. :D If any of that stuff actually was intelligent and made sense i would, but it's impossible to argue with people who think like that. Their opinion is sooooooo far off that they wouldn't see the light no matter how many FACTS you throw at em.Hummm. think I'll sit this one out and "watch the fall out"! :P Sixringz, where you at???:shock: You're not going to take this are you???
mont13
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