Congressman shouts "Liar" to Pres. Obama during speech to nation

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#201 deactivated-59d151f079814
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[QUOTE="jer_1"]

[QUOTE="LanceA63"][QUOTE="Maniacc1"]

Absolutely dispicable and rude behavior. I cannot even begin to explain how innapropiate shouting the word "liar" to the President of the United States during a joint speech to Congress is. He's already released an "apology" statement. This is getting out of hand. When are people, espcially those we elect to represent our states, going to start showing respect to the President? :roll:

Clip (Towards the end)

It was Joe Wilson from South Carolina by the way.

completely agree, civil discourse is a lost art these days. How can we expect these folks to ever accomplish something significant on behalf of the American people?

More socialism on behalf of the people? No thanks! The people don't want this sham and it's quite obvious at this point, just thinking about this government running our health care is a frightening proposition. I can only hope gov'care fails miserably (as it appears to be doing on its own) and the free market can do what they can easily, and less intrusively, do better than the government.

The hell are you talking about, Obama's health plan isn't taking over health care what so ever.. He is only adding a much needed publich option.
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jer_1

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#202 jer_1
Member since 2003 • 7451 Posts

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could, for once, have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives and simultaneously keep big-brother off their backs.

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Theokhoth

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#203 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could for once have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives.

jer_1

And who does the penalizing? Who takes the rights from the corporations?

Oh, right, the government.

You don't even know what the hell a free market is. What you just espoused was SOCIALISM.

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Engrish_Major

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#204 Engrish_Major
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It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could for once have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives.

jer_1
So the post office and public schools are "incrementalism"? When exactly did Obama say that he would take away private insurance companies?
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#205 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could for once have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives.

jer_1
That is a slippery slope fallacy intill you prove otherwise it will remain incorrect.. Furthermore going after corporations? Do you understand what a lobbyist is? These corporations have legions of top lawyers that the government would have to fight to get any where kind of penaltites you are talking about.. A public option is the best choice.. Seriously stop going on with socialism because all it maeks you sound is the typical loonies who are crying out about this.. Did you know that sense Obama took office that still over 99% of all businesses are private? Hell its hilarious that people think he is going to take gun rights when he is one of the few presidents IN DECADES which gave more freeodm to gun rights when he legalized ownership of guns in national parks? This amount of ignorance is the real enemy..
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#206 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="jer_1"]

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could for once have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives.

So the post office and public schools are "incrementalism"? When exactly did Obama say that he would take away private insurance companies?

Don't forget the Police department, fire departments, roads, health code organizations in making food safe etc etc.. People are really stupid to even consider what Obama doing as a threat to our nation.. Because clearly they have no clue what they talk about.
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#207 Jaguar_Shade
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Is GW starting to look like the bees' knees yet?SolidSnake35
only if he'll look through another pair of binoculars with the lens cap on again.
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#208 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could, for once, have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives and simultaneously keep big-brother off their backs.

jer_1
Actually many of those things are being done regarding "preexisting conditions" and so forth when it comes to the current health care plans.
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Engrish_Major

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#209 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Is GW starting to look like the bees' knees yet?Jaguar_Shade
only if he'll look through another pair of binoculars with the lens cap on again.

Not to mention that Obama's 10 year healthcare plan is still cheaper than the wars that Bush started, and they'll actually do American citizens some good as well...
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jer_1

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#210 jer_1
Member since 2003 • 7451 Posts

[QUOTE="jer_1"]

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could for once have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives.

Engrish_Major

So the post office and public schools are "incrementalism"? When exactly did Obama say that he would take away private insurance companies?

It could be stated that the post office and public schools are case in point of why NOT to have a gov'care system! :lol: Though public schools sure do churn out a lot of automatons. This would amount to incrementalism starting with the option, eventually phasing out the choice leaving gov' run health care. There even a few clips where he has stated this in the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2loAUyCFvtA

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#211 FragStains
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I would love if he came out and said, "Hey folks, I'm going to remove archaic laws that prevent interstate insurance buying. This will increase competition, lower prices, and allow responsible citizens to choose the best plan for their family. I'm outta here!!!" He then high fives Biden in the gourd, fake punches Pelosi in the gut and cartwheels out of the chamber.
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Engrish_Major

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#212 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="jer_1"]

It could be stated that the post office and public schools are case in point of why NOT to have a gov'care system! :lol: Though public schools sure do churn out a lot of automatons. This would amount to incrementalism starting with the option, eventually phasing out the choice leaving gov' run health care. There even a few clips where has stated this in the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2loAUyCFvtA

The way that you took the analogy doesn't work with health care though. Unlike with schools and the post office, the government will NOT run the hospitals and doctors. It is just giving an option to replace the middleman, which in my opinion, should not be someone looking to profit.
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#213 chessmaster1989
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[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="jer_1"]

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could for once have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives.

jer_1

So the post office and public schools are "incrementalism"? When exactly did Obama say that he would take away private insurance companies?

It could be stated that the post office and public schools are case in point of why NOT to have a gov'care system! :lol:

Actually, no, problems with the public school system tend to arise from a lack of funding.

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LJS9502_basic

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#214 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180110 Posts

I would love if he came out and said, "Hey folks, I'm going to remove archaic laws that prevent interstate insurance buying. This will increase competition, lower prices, and allow responsible citizens to choose the best plan for their family. I'm outta here!!!" He then high fives Biden in the gourd, fake punches Pelosi in the gut and cartwheels out of the chamber.FragStains
Ah yes......allowing interstate insurance buying would be a step in the right direction for lowering premiums. Makes one wonder why the government DOESN'T do it.

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jer_1

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#215 jer_1
Member since 2003 • 7451 Posts

I would love if he came out and said, "Hey folks, I'm going to remove archaic laws that prevent interstate insurance buying. This will increase competition, lower prices, and allow responsible citizens to choose the best plan for their family. I'm outta here!!!" He then high fives Biden in the gourd, fake punches Pelosi in the gut and cartwheels out of the chamber.FragStains
I love this idea. The fact that these laws exist only seem to point to the wishes of greedy corporations and their attempt to vampirically draw more money out of the people. This law is utter garbage.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#216 deactivated-59d151f079814
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[QUOTE="FragStains"]I would love if he came out and said, "Hey folks, I'm going to remove archaic laws that prevent interstate insurance buying. This will increase competition, lower prices, and allow responsible citizens to choose the best plan for their family. I'm outta here!!!" He then high fives Biden in the gourd, fake punches Pelosi in the gut and cartwheels out of the chamber.LJS9502_basic

Ah yes......allowing interstate insurance buying would be a step in the right direction for lowering premiums. Makes one wonder why the government DOESN'T do it.

Lobbyists.. Its all about who has the most money in the end who decides..
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Baranga

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#217 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

Incredible how The Paranoid Sty1e in American Politics still applies today. Can't link, google it.

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MarcusAntonius

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#218 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

What the congressman did was rude. But let us stop the phony outrage over this. Bush was booed during his speeches and I specifically recall Democrats standing up and cheering when Bush spoke of failure to reform Social Security. Shame on McCain for making idiotic comments like, "In all my years, blah. blah, blah...."

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#219 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
For those who are wondering whether Obama was lying when he was called a liar during an address to the nation: [quote="HR3200"] SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

He was not. For those wondering if there is any possible way that Congressman Wilson's remarks aren't a lie, here's one way to spin them. [quote="Brendan Nyhan"] Obama is clearly referring to the false claim that health care reform would provide free health insurance to illegal immigrants. Many people may interpret Wilson's outburst as a defense of this claim (it's impossible to know what he was thinking). However, as Rob correctly points out, Obama's reforms would apply to everyone - including illegal immigrants - who purchases coverage through health insurance exchanges, including from a proposed government insurance program known as the public option. If you define the public option as insuring someone and describe it as a reform, then Obama's statement could be seen as misleading and Wilson's point could be seen as more supportable.

A good way to interpret this spin and bring it down to earth is provided by Matthew Yglesias. [quote="Matthew Yglesias"] In other words, though the bills would prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance, the proposals on the table don't do anything special to prevent an undocumented immigrant from buying health insurance with his own money. To characterize this as "insur[ing] illegal immigrants" strikes me as about on a par with claiming that Obama's health care plans give ibuprofen to illegal immigrants. After all, nothing in the bill stops illegal immigrants from buying ibuprofen in a store! And the very same FDA regulations that assure citizens and legal residents and tourists of the safety of ibuprofen will also benefit illegal immigrants.

At the end of the day, Obama was telling the truth. Wilson was full of it in addition to being woefully out of place in the halls of Congress while the U.S. President is delivering an address to the nation. Hat-tip to Matt Yglesias
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#220 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

Congressional Research Service:

"Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others note that under §142(a)(3) of the bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner (Commissioner) to administer the "individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits."

Family eligibility for affordability credits: Section 242(a)(2) of the bill provides that "[e]xcept as the Commissioner may otherwise provide, members of the same family who are affordable credit eligible individuals shall be treated as a single affordable credit individual eligible for the applicable credit for such a family under this subtitle." This suggests that if one member of a family is legally eligible, every family member will be considered eligible. This is significant in terms of numbers — the Pew Hispanic Center estimated that there are almost two million families in the United States where illegal immigrant parents have U.S.-born children. That does not include other "mixed status families" – one legal parent, one illegal parent and illegal child, etc.

According to CRS: "There could be instances where some family members would meet the definition of an eligible individual for purposes of the credit, while other family members would not. For example, in a family consisting of a U.S. citizen married to an unauthorized alien and a U.S. citizen child, the U.S. citizen spouse and child could meet the criteria for being a credit-eligible individual, while the unauthorized alien spouse would not meet the criteria. H.R. 3200 does not expressly address how such a situation would be treated. Therefore, it appears that the Health Choices Commissioner would be responsible for determining how the credits would be administered in the case of mixed-status families."

H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in
the Exchange—whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States
temporarily or permanently. Nonetheless, only aliens who could be clas-sified as resident aliens
would be required under the bill to have health insurance.

Obama's claims are disingenuous at best. I seriously wonder if he has read his own bill. A liar, perhaps not. But you can clearly see the ambiguity in terms of whether illegals are covered or not.

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#221 JustusCF
Member since 2009 • 1050 Posts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4228927.stm

It's (D)ifferent I know.

But the first half of Mr Bush's speech focused on domestic policy - and this is where he received loud heckles from some members of Congress.


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#222 Unassigned
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[QUOTE="Maniacc1"]

Absolutely dispicable and rude behavior. I cannot even begin to explain how innapropiate shouting the word "liar" to the President of the United States during a joint speech to Congress is. He's already released an "apology" statement. This is getting out of hand. When are people, espcially those we elect to represent our states, going to start showing respect to the President? :roll:

Clip (Towards the end)

It was Joe Wilson from South Carolina by the way.

He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.
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#223 nocoolnamejim
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[QUOTE="Unassigned"][QUOTE="Maniacc1"]

Absolutely dispicable and rude behavior. I cannot even begin to explain how innapropiate shouting the word "liar" to the President of the United States during a joint speech to Congress is. He's already released an "apology" statement. This is getting out of hand. When are people, espcially those we elect to represent our states, going to start showing respect to the President? :roll:

Clip (Towards the end)

It was Joe Wilson from South Carolina by the way.

He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#224 -Sun_Tzu-
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[QUOTE="FragStains"]I would love if he came out and said, "Hey folks, I'm going to remove archaic laws that prevent interstate insurance buying. This will increase competition, lower prices, and allow responsible citizens to choose the best plan for their family. I'm outta here!!!" He then high fives Biden in the gourd, fake punches Pelosi in the gut and cartwheels out of the chamber.

No, that is not the result of allowing the purchasing of interstate insurance. The kind of "competition" that such a policy would bring would be private insurers competing which amongst them is the best at making a profit - ie who is the best at denying coverage. That is not the kind of competition that the market needs.
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Dman0017

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#225 Dman0017
Member since 2007 • 4640 Posts
whatever happened to talking behind someone's back and quietly undermining them?
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#226 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
Even the people who were booing Obama were outraged, and started booing him. He should grow up and show some self-control.
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#227 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
Even the people who were booing Obama were outraged, and started booing him. He should grow up and show some self-control.Bourbons3
Well he apologized pretty quick so he seemed to pick up on the fact that it was a stupid thing to do.
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#228 fidosim
Member since 2003 • 12901 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Unassigned"][QUOTE="Maniacc1"]

Absolutely dispicable and rude behavior. I cannot even begin to explain how innapropiate shouting the word "liar" to the President of the United States during a joint speech to Congress is. He's already released an "apology" statement. This is getting out of hand. When are people, espcially those we elect to represent our states, going to start showing respect to the President? :roll:

Clip (Towards the end)

It was Joe Wilson from South Carolina by the way.

He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?

He said it didn't cover illegals' families. Children born on US soil to illegal immigrants would count as citizens.
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#229 jazznate
Member since 2008 • 1202 Posts

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could, for once, have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives and simultaneously keep big-brother off their backs.

jer_1

Is incrementalism a fancy word for slippery slope or non seuquitor?

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#230 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Unassigned"] He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.fidosim
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?

He said it didn't cover illegals' families. Children born on US soil to illegal immigrants would count as citizens.

"President Obama: There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. Rep. Joe Wilson: You Lie!" This is about as black/white as these things get. The bill says "no affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." Obama stated "the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally". 2+2 does, in fact, add up to 4. If illegal immigrants have children and those children are U.S. citizens then the children are not here illegally.
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yagr_zero

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#231 yagr_zero
Member since 2006 • 27850 Posts
I saw that. That's just amazing. It's one thing to disagree, but it's another to show no respect to your leader openly in a joint session of Congress on television.
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sammyjenkis898

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#232 sammyjenkis898
Member since 2007 • 28392 Posts
You've to to love South Carolina.. No offense Travo. :P
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#233 fidosim
Member since 2003 • 12901 Posts
[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"] SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?nocoolnamejim
He said it didn't cover illegals' families. Children born on US soil to illegal immigrants would count as citizens.

"President Obama: There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. Rep. Joe Wilson: You Lie!" This is about as black/white as these things get. The bill says "no affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." Obama stated "the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally". 2+2 does, in fact, add up to 4. If illegal immigrants have children and those children are U.S. citizens then the children are not here illegally.

President Obama's "proposal" and the bill that is actually at the forefront of this in congress are two different things. HR3200, with a few exceptions, does not explicitly exclude illegals from most of its provisions.
H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens-whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently-participating in the Exchange.Congressional Research Service
You don't have to call it lying, I suppose. But he did fundamentally stretch the truth.
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#234 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="fidosim"] He said it didn't cover illegals' families. Children born on US soil to illegal immigrants would count as citizens.fidosim
"President Obama: There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. Rep. Joe Wilson: You Lie!" This is about as black/white as these things get. The bill says "no affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." Obama stated "the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally". 2+2 does, in fact, add up to 4. If illegal immigrants have children and those children are U.S. citizens then the children are not here illegally.

President Obama's "proposal" and the bill that is actually at the forefront of this in congress are two different things. HR3200, with a few exceptions, does not explicitly exclude illegals from most of its provisions.
H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens-whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently-participating in the Exchange.Congressional Research Service
You don't have to call it lying, I suppose. But he did fundamentally stretch the truth.

This seems like pretty clear-cut language to me: [quote="HR 3200"] SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

I don't see any stretching of the truth there.
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nocoolnamejim

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#235 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
Here's a good way to look at it. [quote="Matt Yglesias"] In other words, though the bills would prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance, the proposals on the table don't do anything special to prevent an undocumented immigrant from buying health insurance with his own money. To characterize this as "insur[ing] illegal immigrants" strikes me as about on a par with claiming that Obama's health care plans give ibuprofen to illegal immigrants. After all, nothing in the bill stops illegal immigrants from buying ibuprofen in a store! And the very same FDA regulations that assure citizens and legal residents and tourists of the safety of ibuprofen will also benefit illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants can BUY THEIR OWN INSURANCE in the same way they can go into a store and buy their own aspirin. But they aren't covered by this reform because they don't get any ASSISTANCE, monetary or otherwise, in buying their own insurance. To say this bill covers them is a HUGE stretch.
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fidosim

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#236 fidosim
Member since 2003 • 12901 Posts
This seems like pretty clear-cut language to me: [quote="HR 3200"] SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. nocoolnamejim
I don't see any stretching of the truth there.

The President stretched the truth, not the bill. [quote="Congressional Research Service"]Under H.R. 3200, a "Health Insurance Exchange" would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option. The Exchange would not be an insurer; it would provide eligible individuals and small businesses with access to insurers' plans, including the public option, in a comparable way. Individuals would only be eligible to enroll in an Exchange plan if they were not enrolled in other acceptable coverage (for example, from an employer, Medicare and generally Medicaid). 26 H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens-whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently-participating in the Exchange.

He said that "his plan" would not insure illegal immigrants. It does not restrict them from doing so. You Lie!
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nocoolnamejim

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#237 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts
[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]This seems like pretty clear-cut language to me: [quote="HR 3200"] SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. fidosim
I don't see any stretching of the truth there.

The President stretched the truth, not the bill. [quote="Congressional Research Service"]Under H.R. 3200, a "Health Insurance Exchange" would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option. The Exchange would not be an insurer; it would provide eligible individuals and small businesses with access to insurers' plans, including the public option, in a comparable way. Individuals would only be eligible to enroll in an Exchange plan if they were not enrolled in other acceptable coverage (for example, from an employer, Medicare and generally Medicaid). 26 H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens-whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently-participating in the Exchange.

He said that "his plan" would not insure illegal immigrants. It does not restrict them from doing so. You Lie!

If they pay for it out of their own pocket! Just like illegal immigrants could go out and buy a cheeseburger tomorrow because the bill doesn't explicitly do anything to prevent their acquiring cheeseburgers. [quote="Matthew Yglesias"] In other words, though the bills would prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance, the proposals on the table don't do anything special to prevent an undocumented immigrant from buying health insurance with his own money. To characterize this as "insur[ing] illegal immigrants" strikes me as about on a par with claiming that Obama's health care plans give ibuprofen to illegal immigrants. After all, nothing in the bill stops illegal immigrants from buying ibuprofen in a store! And the very same FDA regulations that assure citizens and legal residents and tourists of the safety of ibuprofen will also benefit illegal immigrants.

I've already seen people complain about the length of the bill. How many things do you want the bill to EXPLICITLY forbid? The bill doesn't do anything to PREVENT illegal immigrants from going out and buying machine guns on their own. The president is giving machine guns to illegal immigrants! :P
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#238 mindstorm
Member since 2003 • 15255 Posts

You've to to love South Carolina.. No offense Travo. :Psammyjenkis898
Yeah.. when I found out I had yet another reason to be embarrassed by my state I almost facepalmed...

Apparently, others have noticed the influx of comic material from SC as well. o.0

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#239 Hot-Tamale
Member since 2009 • 2052 Posts

What the congressman did was rude. But let us stop the phony outrage over this. Bush was booed during his speeches and I specifically recall Democrats standing up and cheering when Bush spoke of failure to reform Social Security. Shame on McCain for making idiotic comments like, "In all my years, blah. blah, blah...."

MarcusAntonius

'Reform' isn't the right word here. He failed to 'demolish' Social Security. :)

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#240 TBoogy
Member since 2007 • 4382 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Unassigned"] He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.fidosim
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?

He said it didn't cover illegals' families. Children born on US soil to illegal immigrants would count as citizens.

But if you are born here to a non citizen (like Bruce Lee was) you are considered a citizen anyway.

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MarcusAntonius

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#241 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

[QUOTE="jer_1"]

It starts with a public option yes. It also eventually leads to a government run health care system, nice tactic to use, incrementalism. Why even let their foot in the door? Why not just use the constitution to protect the people instead, start penalizing the hell out of the insurance companies that screw over the people. Stop giving corporations the same rights as people (individuals)! If we could take the rights of the corporations out of the picture, the people could, for once, have the power to make good and safe decisions on their own lives and simultaneously keep big-brother off their backs.

jazznate

Is incrementalism a fancy word for slippery slope or non seuquitor?

No it isn't. In many cases it could be called reasoned analysis. As long as it's explained in detail.

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MarcusAntonius

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#242 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

[QUOTE="Unassigned"][QUOTE="Maniacc1"]

Absolutely dispicable and rude behavior. I cannot even begin to explain how innapropiate shouting the word "liar" to the President of the United States during a joint speech to Congress is. He's already released an "apology" statement. This is getting out of hand. When are people, espcially those we elect to represent our states, going to start showing respect to the President? :roll:

Clip (Towards the end)

It was Joe Wilson from South Carolina by the way.

nocoolnamejim

He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?

Perhaps you missed my post. Liar? Perhaps not. Mistaken and ambiguous, certainly.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27032807&page=21

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On3ShotOneKill

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#243 On3ShotOneKill
Member since 2008 • 1219 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="Unassigned"] He shouted the right word at the wrong time, the apology was needed.MarcusAntonius

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. Where's the lie in what Obama was saying that the reform doesn't cover illegal immigrants?

Perhaps you missed my post. Liar? Perhaps not. Mistaken and ambiguous, certainly.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27032807&page=21

The plot thickens.....

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#244 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
We have a large group of crazies that think that Obama is Hitler a socialist, is not a natural born US citizen, and believes that this will have death panels.. These people don't want proof because no matter how much proof you give them they will still believe the exact same ridiculous things.. They are as bad as the 9/11 conspiracy theory people.
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jer_1

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#245 jer_1
Member since 2003 • 7451 Posts

You could debate whether or not this monstrosity will or will not cover illegals. It likely won't matter once barry starts bringing in his plans for comprehensive immigration reform, which will likely be next in line once he tricks congress into passing health care reform. Just wait, won't have to worry about this argument once he legalizes all of the illegals waiting in line or hiding in the shadows... :arrow:

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#246 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

You could debate whether or not this monstrosity will or will not cover illegals. It likely won't matter once barry starts bringing in his plans for comprehensive immigration reform, which will likely be next in line once he tricks congress into passing health care reform. Just wait, won't have to worry about this argument once he legalizes all of the illegals waiting in line... :arrow:

jer_1
Tricks? The majority is democrat the so called "socialist" party.... It seems far more reasonable proposition than making a 900 mile wall that illegals can easilly get through with basic tools..
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Vandalvideo

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#247 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
I find the high school "ooooooooh" snaps to be more disgraceful.
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jer_1

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#248 jer_1
Member since 2003 • 7451 Posts

[QUOTE="jer_1"]

You could debate whether or not this monstrosity will or will not cover illegals. It likely won't matter once barry starts bringing in his plans for comprehensive immigration reform, which will likely be next in line once he tricks congress into passing health care reform. Just wait, won't have to worry about this argument once he legalizes all of the illegals waiting in line... :arrow:

sSubZerOo

Tricks? The majority is democrat the so called "socialist" party.... It seems far more reasonable proposition than making a 900 mile wall that illegals can easilly get through with basic tools..

I wouldn't call them the socialist party so much as I would acknowledge that there are a few socialist elements within the ranks. There are just a lot of people who feel they need to suck the teet of big mama government... :lol:

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Vandalvideo

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#249 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
I wouldn't call them the socialist party so much as I would acknowledge that there are a few socialist elements within the ranks. There are just a lot of people who feel they need to suck the teet of big mama government... :lol:jer_1
Ironically, there are a few 'fascist'/socialist leaning philosophies employed by modern American Conservatives as well. I swear, the American political landscape is so daft. VIVA LIBERTARIANS!
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MarcusAntonius

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#250 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

We have a large group of crazies that think that Obama is Hitler a socialist, is not a natural born US citizen, and believes that this will have death panels.. These people don't want proof because no matter how much proof you give them they will still believe the exact same ridiculous things.. They are as bad as the 9/11 conspiracy theory people.sSubZerOo

Huh? I didn't realizes the birthers and truthers were at issue here?:?