[QUOTE="DrinkDuff"]Let me create a scenerio here.
What if I wrote a book over 2000 years ago and then I told everyone that my hand was divinely guided by god and you should believe everything that is written therein because the word of the book is absolute as is the word of God, even though it was really of my own fabrication? And what if it turns out that the purpose of fabricating this message was to get power for the purpose of furthering my own agenda, and got a bunch of people to believe what I want, and do what I want, in a collected, controlled manner? What if the message became popular, was spread across great lengths, and eventually passed down throughout the ages? What if still no one knew that my device for power was still being taught today as a truth of life, a religion as well as philosophy? What if you found out your religion was a 2000 year old hoax created by some power hungry dictator (aka me if I lived 2000 years ago)? I bet you would be pretty disappointed that you were so gullible huh.
blackregiment
Your whole specualtive scenario is without basis for it excludes many historical facts and realities.
In order to believe that the Bible was "made up" by man you would have to accept many things. Let's just look at the Resurrection.
In order for one not to believe that Jesus is God and rose from the dead, one would have to deny the empty tomb and the Resurrection. .
That would mean that the Apostles and early Christians made up the Resurrection story. Why would they endure such persecution for something they knew was a lie? The Apostles and early Christians were stoned, beheaded, boiled in oil, imprisoned, crucified, scourged, fed to lions, clothed in animal skins and then torn apart by wild beasts, tarred and lit on fire, disemboweled, burnt at the stake, etc., rather than recant their faith.
An explanation would be required as to why the Jewish Priests and Roman authorities that wanted so much to stamp out early Christianity, as evidenced by their persecution of Christians, chose not to display Jesus' body to disprove the claims of the followers of Christ that he had arose from the dead.
Also needing to be explained would be why the Apostles were bold enough to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem, the very city where Christ was crucified, to crowds that lived during those events and could have easily disputed the resurrection claims publically.
Finally, one would need to explain why the early church grew so quickly in a pagan world, especially when it was under intense persecution.
Dr. Simon Greenleaf, Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University and author of A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, examined the value of the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ to ascertain the truth. He applied the principles contained in his three-volume treatise on evidence. His findings were recorded in his book, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. Greenleaf came to the conclusion that, according to the laws of legal evidence used in courts of law, there is more evidence for the historical fact of the resurrection of Jesus Christ than for just about any other event in history.
He was an atheist that came to Christ after honestly and openly reviewing all of the evidence.
Now let's look at the Bible.
The Bible is God's progressive revelation to mankind with the central figure being the true living God, revealed through Jesus Christ the Messiah. Understanding the truths it reveals and applying them to our lives and beliefs is the most important thing we will ever do in our lives. We can ignore it, disbelieve it, or pretend it isn't true, but we cannot change it. Our opinion of the truth of the Bible does not determine whether it is the truth or not.Moral relativism is a lie that many have bought into to their own peril.
The entire Bible is the inerrant, inspired, preserved, revelation from God of Himself, His interaction with and plan of salvation for His creation with Jesus Christ as the central revelation.
The Bible is composed of 66 separate books, written over approximately 1,600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors, from all walks of life, written in three different languages, on three different continents, all in perfect agreement and revealing a consistent message, the path to salvation in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 65 AD.
There is no other book that has ever come close to this remarkable achievement and wisdom. Anyone that reads and studies it and cannot see the inspiration and work of God in the Bible just doesn't want to. Try getting 40 people in the same room or on the same internet thread to agree on something and it will be clear that the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, and preserved Word. Anyone can pick a verse out of the Bible and try to discredit it but when one openly and honestly looks at all of the evidence for the truth of the Bible in its entirety, only one that chooses to remain in rebellion to the Lord will reject it. It has been said, even by secular psychologists, that if one studies the Sermon on the Mount, in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew, the excellence of the wisdom, guidance, and life lessons of the words and teachings of Jesus in just those verses, surpasses the totality of all advice ever written in the history of man by all psychologists and sociologists that ever lived. Many concede that if all the advice ever written by those experts were condensed down, into one document, the wisdom for living in Jesus' teachings would dwarf them in significance. This is overwhelming evidence for the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible as well as the divinity of Christ.
In the Old Testament
The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah
The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah
The books poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah
The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah
In the New Testament
The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah
The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah
The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah
Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah
God has not revealed His entire plan and everything regarding the natural world to man. Man could not possibly comprehend it with our finite mind. He has revealed what He, as our Creator, wants us to know.
The truth, whether anyone wants to accept it or not, is that without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through faith in Him as your Lord and Savior, one is lost. God has lovingly provided a path to salvation in Jesus Christ but He will not force anyone to accept His plan. He respects your free will to choose him or reject Him.He does not want a single person to be lost but he will not force Himself on anyone. The choice is your and yours alone. Make your choice freely and God will be faithful in giving you the destiny you choose.
That's why its a speculative scenerio, and not fact. You missed my point a little bit. I am actually agnostic, but the fact that the only evidence of God is in the bible is disconcerting, especially when all of it could just be a hoax or fictional nonsense. My scenerio is not historically accurate but it doesn't need to be to display my point, because I wasn't trying to prove that He doesn't exist. I am only trying to explain why you can't use the bible in a logical argument for God's existence. You are refusing to acknowledge the other side of the argument, where as I have. I am impartial to religion (until someone forces it on me anyway). He could exist and He could not. You do realize that you cannot prove that the ressurrection took place? Assuming that it did not happen is actually a lot more logical considering the circumstances. The ressurection could have been a trick. A fake stand-in for Jesus could have been used to bend the will of the people to the will of the Apostles (or maybe something even more elaborate took place). In pure philosophical sense, in order to assume that the ressurection took place you would have to assume that God exists, that Jesus was the son of God, and that the Bible is the word of God. Through deductive reasoning, all I have to do is assume that God does not exist, and then by default I can assume that there was no ressurection.
I am a logical person and as such, I refuse to believe in something that does not have concrete infallible evidence to back up its existence. Religion does not have that, and its absolute reliance on faith is its downfall. I'm not saying that faith is bad, but exactly where would we be if we didn't rely on logic (God-given or not)? We wouldn't have science, which has "blessed" us (and I use that term loosely for obvious reasons) with almost all of our modern conveniences. As long as I believe in science and logic I cannot believe in religion as told by the bible until real evidence is presented.
I wish I was as knowledgeable as you are on the subject of christianity, and even religion in general so I could elaborate, but I'm not that knowledgeable, so I don't think I can continue this argument on the same level that you are. You make some good points, but I don't think its enough to convince me of either stance.
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