So is the only argument left against PC "I don't like it"?

I mentioned in my first post that its not fun to play against KB/M with a controller so if you prefer a controller console is a better option. I also differentiated that while the KB/M is better, the deficiency of the controller changes the way the game plays so neither is objectively better to play as it comes down to preference. So you didn't understand the distinction between which control is better and how that affects overall game play.

I understand reading is difficult for you...

Where the hell does ron even get these benchmarks from? Everytime its from some different hole in the wall.

Maybe they're from AMD :D

Yah one is an objectively better control scheme. But that affects gameplay which is subjective. So its subjective which control scheme plays better because it affects all players. I get it. You have poor reading comprehension and fail to understand nuance.

@ronvalencia: Don't know about Killer Instinct but for FM7 the Xbox ONE X doesn't use MSAA at all, according to DigitalFoundary the Xbonx ONE X uses some kind of special costume AA solution, so don't know what you are getting at. That build on the other hand is capable of using MSAAx2 at 4k with its GTX 1060 and still deliver 60fps at that resolution, here is another video from SantiagoSantiago that demonstrates this (skip to 10:07):

You keep saying the Xbox ONE X has a GPU similar to a GTX 1070 but the results clearly show that its around the level of a GTX 1060.

PC can use both kb/m and controller better than console for more games, so who cares?

oh and lol XBOX ONE runs several games at 30 fps. NO THANKS!

@CanYouDiglt:

3 times, 3 times I posted the same video, this is the last time, from this point on I see anyone claiming a $500 4k capable PC build is not possible I will assume they are retarded. Sorry but the only thing impressive about the Xbox ONE X is its name, its an over exaggerated name, kind of like "Thunder Cougar Falcon Bird".

This is stupid. He's using a used dell to make it competitive.. in fact I didn't feel like waiting to figure out how much he spent on the used PC. He spent most of his budget before I figured it out, I just stopped caring after he spent most of his budget on upgrades. So I'm assuming this dell he got... near free.

edit: 89.99... thats alot cheaper than most market price which is + 200 in most cases. This is not a "normal" option for most people.

@waahahah:

And I'm not gonna bother with your weak criticism, You wanted a $500 PC, and I got you one, now shut up and accept you were wrong.

@toonarmy20:

HAHAHA wow you are dumb! you DO realize that if i wanted to build a PC that is a like for like with an Xbox ONE X i would have to strip down a lot from the PC? I'd get rid of an open operating system like windows 10 and turn it into a restricted system like the Xbox OS, meaning no 3rd party software like MS Office, SPSS, ArcGIS, VLC and lots more, I'd also have to make it a build that has a single unit board, meaning i cannot swap CPU,s GPUs, RAM, etc for increased performance! the only thing I would be able to "upgrade" is the HDD, which is still a bad deal for Xbox because it means I would only have a single SATA port, meaning i can only have 1 HDD, and thats just BASIC PC functionality, in terms of gaming experience, i would have to get rid of backwards compatibility, mouse and keyboard support, the software market would be locked to a single distributor, meaning a controlled market, meaning no more steam sales, do you even understand why consoles are consoles and PCs are PCs? Jesus you have so much to learn! your peasantry poisoned your mind! XD

and also you can record game play with various software already available, like Nvidia shadow play for example. FOR FREE, There is literally NOTHING a console can do that a PC can't, you're fighting a losing battle here, so quit while you can.

AMD's EQ AA uses MSAA sampling as it's baseline AA with extra custom sampling pattern.

On PC, MSAA 8X is needed to match X1X's EQAA 4F8X .

This is basic AMD GPU 101.

Both RX-580 and GTX 1060 fails 60 fps average.

SantiagoSantiago's video used MSAA 2X and has made excuses for avoiding MSAA 4X and 8X.

VEGA 56 handles MSAA 8X with ease. VEGA 56 beats GTX 1070. NVIDIA needs to release GTX 1070 TI.

Your video's GTX 1060 has flaws since it didn't match X1X's FM7 wet track MSAA 4X (base AA for EQAA 4F8X) and Killer Instinct Season 3 results.

Furthermore, RX-580 is already strong at TitanFall 2 and Call of Duty IW.

From http://www.babeltechreviews.com/rx-vega-64-rx-vega-56-first-benchmarks/

The question is why do pc owners, ( the majority of them 87 %) buy consoles if they are, the consoles, so "useless"???

The answer is that most of us need as many platforms as possible to fulfill our passion for gaming, and all the tech crap ( power, fps etc...) won't change that.

@ronvalencia: Dont see Nvidia having to release the 1070ti while 56 still costs the same or more as 1080 in most places, comparing rx56 to 1070 is bit pointless

It's not about running out of ammunition. It's about preferences and i do prefer gaming on consoles.

The level of arrogance here is umbelievable! Can't you PC gamers simply accept a different opinion?

AMD has no controls over retail prices and mining has caused price increase i.e. basic supply and demand factors.

GTX 1070's 256 bit GDDR5-8000 setup is physically different from GTX 1080's 256bit GDDR5X-10000/11000 setup.

VEGA 56's HBM v2 setup is physically the same as VEGA 64's HBM v2 setup hence both reaching 484 GBps target.

NVIDIA GPUs has thier own price increase. http://wccftech.com/nvidia-graphics-cards-see-price-increases-starting-month-due-memory-shortage/

For the US market, VEGA 56 can be OC (core and memory with 484 GBps) to rival VEGA 64's results hence market factors has caused VEGA 56 to reach GTX 1080's price range.

For the Australian market, VEGA 56s are priced with GTX 1070s. https://au.pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=369,367,404&sort=price

For the French market, VEGA 56s are priced with GTX 1070s. https://fr.pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=369,367,404&sort=price

@PAL360: No.

that's some extreme cases and in france it's +10€ for 1080 from vega56, before the amd prices drop down(if they do) there's simply not much point comparing 56 with 1070 when they aren't in the same price segments in most places.

@Juub1990: Of course you can't. It was a rhetorical question :p

Vega 56's 5.9G triangles rasterization rate is higher than GTX 1070's 5G triangles. DF bench-marked Vega 56 with 484 GB/s memory bandwidth OC and it landed close to GTX 1080.

Vega 56 with Vega 64's clock speed increases triangles rasterization rate between 6.2 to 6.7G triangles which nearly rivals GTX 1080's 6.9 G triangle rate.

GTX 1070's 256bit GDDR5-8000/9000 setup has zero chance to match GTX 1080's GDDR5X-10000/11000 setup.

just because one has reason they don't want to game on PC doesn't mean they're hating on it

I'm not wrong, this isn't an option for everyone, its called lucking out and finding a stupidly cheap old pc and upgrading it with better parts. Xbox one x will be available for everyone at 500 regardless of situation. So no this isn't a weak criticism. This isn't a 500 4k PC because its heavily circumstantial.

@ronvalencia: On PC, MSAA 8X is needed to match X1X's EQAA 4F8X .

Watch the DF video again, they clearly stated that MSAAx4 was too much for the Xbox so the devs are using a costume AA solution, and it clearly shows that its weaker than MSAAx4 when they zoomed in on the image, so it cannot be better than MSAAx4 and most certainly not on par with MSAAx8, I'm not interested in pictures of theoretical performance benchs, I'm only interested in real world results so don't waste my time with your pictures, you got actual benchs from the Xbox ONE X vs a budget PC biuld with a GTX 1060,1070 or an RX 580? then show me, otherwise GTFO, also I have already said, I have witnessed the bench tests from DF, again, no way that box has a GPU that matches a GTX 1070, a GTX 1070 can actually do MASSx8 at the Ultra pre-set WITH v-sync on, sorry but you are talking shit.

Xbox One X, the PC alternative.

My ass circumstantial, its very easy to find used parts, especially in places like ebay, willhaben or craig's list, all you need to be is dedicated and have very low standards.

Here's a reason:

PC gamers are as annoying as religious fundamentalists. Why are PC gamers always trying to validate their preference and force it on other people?

I dont PC game because I dont like PC gamers. PCs are cool. The community of players on PC are as pretentious as the organic/non-gmo crowd.

ebay is circumstantial, and I already pointed out the 89.99 for a PC with an i5 is super rare. The market price like I mentioned is $150 to $200 more on ebay currently. So yes this is circumstantial, not everyone will be able to get a PC for less then 100 and be able to upgrade it with high end parts... 89.99 is essentially giving the PC away compared to "normal" prices. Its stupid to think that this isn't circumstantial. You can't just walk into a store and get a PC this price. Even your own video points out the reliability of PC prices... like seriously you posted that 3 times and no one wanted to adress it because its self evident how stupid it is.

And even then builds like this are stupid, harder to upgrade later, and generally a waste of money unless your getting a pc for giveaway price. They don't have warranties and reliable as reliable... most of those PC's are refurbished.. So your making a compromise to get used/refurbished prices.

Well then you should have said that I should downgrade a PC to console levels, in that case no its not possible, you cannot strip down functionalities from PCs, but I don't think any honest person would even think this is a rational (let alone a GOOD) argument in favor of the Xbox, you would just look like an idiot.....

I know the build is stupid, I never said its a good build (after all its specs are modeled after console......) I posted that video to show that it IS possible to build a 4k PC for $500, not that I would recommend it, the Xbox ONE X is a shit console for 4k and is best used as a 1080p system imo, it will struggle to support future games and by the time the next Xbox roles out we would be able to build budget PCs that can do 4k at 60fps for next gen games. The purpose of the video was to simply show that it IS possible to build a budget 4k system and I posted it here to prove it, but despite providing evidence you still slapped the olive from my hand, so at least i know I'm correct.

As for the "harder to upgrade later" comment, I can't BELIEVE you had the nerve to say that, because you can TOTALLY upgrade an Xbox ONE X right? at least it CAN be upgraded. Sure rich got lucky with the sandybridge i5, but even an i5-750 can perform well on 4k as well, and thats a LOT cheaper than an i5 sandybridge, and thats just intel, AMD has plenty of budget CPUs that perform very well for a very cheap price, I could build a PC for $500 if I wanted to, posting that video was just easier than having to look for parts myself.

Yep, same here for me.

I feel you. I don't like judging the validity of anything from the community, and I've had well over a decade of experience with PC gaming and I have formed opinions from my experiences. Yet my experiences with PC gamers in the past few years (both online AND IRL) has always been straight-up toxic, and it has certainly made me downplay the fact that I am a PC gamer alongside a console gamer.

Really, the gaming community is toxic as a whole... The fact that within the gaming community I downplay being any level of a PC gamer says a lot.

@oflow: I don't like console gamers because they generalize too much.

The "possible" is circumstantial what don't you get? Finding and getting parts that cheap aren't going to be easy or possible. Just because one person landed on a bit of luck doesn't mean the other 99% of people will.

Your point is stupid.

You can't believe I brought up upgrading? Consoles are different, they don't need to be upgraded. But if you want to upgrade that shit dell, it may cost you more in the long run, needing a new psu/mobo/ram before getting an upgraded video card when its too old. That case will be hard to fit a larger video card as well. Your getting cheap upfront parts now and potentially buying more later. IE your postponing the cost to be able to keep upgrading it and your total is going to be significantly more in the long run then just buying a base system that is worth keeping a generation or two.

Its just a waste of money to try to compete with consoles just to have a comparative price. You'll avoid buying 800-900 PC just to end up needing to upgrade it later and rebuy 80% of it. PC's have a different value proposition.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-forza-motorsport-on-project-scorpio-the-full-story

"The crazy story here is that we've gone over our PC ultra settings and for everything that's GPU-related, we've been able to max it - and that's what we're running at, 88 per cent," says Tector, pointing to the utilisation data at the top of the screen. Right beneath it is theanti-aliasing setting - 4x, or rather 8:4x using the Radeon EQAA hardware AA.

X1X can handle MSAA 4X.

The following screenshot (running at XBO settings at 4K + PC's textures) for DF's Scorpio reveal was from FM7 since the artwork doesn't exist in FM6.

EQAA 8:4X is built on top of MSAA 4X with a fake MSAA 8X like result.

Too bad for you

With MSAA 2X, GTX 1060 doesn't have the headroom like MSI Gaming X 980 TI to avoid 46 fps dips.

Forza M7 is very strong for RX-VEGA 56/64 but not strong for older Polaris based RX-580. That's running on MSAA mode for both AMD and NV PC GPUs.

Mainstream RX-Vega 32 would slot between RX-580 and RX-VEGA 56.

Saying KB/M is better for only a few games is wrong, KB/M is better for certain genres (FPS, point and click games, RTS for examples) but there are many genres where controllers are vastly superior (fighting games, platformers,(2d and 3d), beat em ups, for examples) and some genres where it really does not make a difference at all (rpgs for example)

What makes PC superior to consoles in this regard is the choice, you can use the controller that best suits that style of game which is an option that console gamers dont have.

Does any human being need another argument? Why do anything a you simply don't want to? Why justify to others anything you do like?

Yawn. This is System Wars Brosef. Better go on a political debate forum if all you preach is "you're entitled to your opinion". I mean you're right but where is the fun in that?

Not entirely true. Many speed runners use keyboard on Super Meat Boy and still get just as fast or faster time than controller speed runners.

@toonarmy20: You really don't know what a vapour cooling heatsink is, do you?

Let me enlighten you.

These have been in PC's for well over a decade maybe even 2, only very low end CPU's and GPU's have static heatsinks because they don't build up much heat in the first place. How to effectively dissipate the heat from your system is one of the first lessons any PC builder, especially anyone who overclocks, learns about.

On your other points

Everything on a PC is online, I don't have any removable physical disc readers on my PC they are old, near obsolete technology that take up space and create noise. Even Hard Drives are fast becoming obsolete, just a few more years before they are completely replaced with Solid State Drives.

You don't need an Xbox One controller for PC, you can use any controller. A couple of examples on Wednesday my mates and I were playing the Forza 7 Demo on my PC with a 360 controller (which came with my old Xbox 360) then we played Gears of War 4 split screen with the same 360 controller and the DS4 controller from my PS4. The DS4 controller will work with Forza as well.

For game capture just run Shadowplay (if you have an Nvidia GPU), or one of a myriad of other free video capture programmes. Bandicam, for example, will record 4k at up to 120fps

Now please stop embarrassing yourself

https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und-verkaufen/d/intel-i5-750-4gb-ram-intel-mainboard-8600gt-221294477/

I looked for an i5-750, then I found one that included a motherboard and 4GB of RAM and a GT 8600, all for €70, (thats less than $89.99) Took me literally 2 minutes.

http://www.ebay.at/itm/AUFRUSTKIT-Bundle-i5-2500k-MSI-P67A-C45-12-GB-RAM-G-Skill-Ripjaws-OCZ-500W-/222652672155?hash=item33d722289b:g:wcUAAOSwXLpZxAJ3

i5-2500k with motherboard, 12GB RAM and a 500W PSU €65 which includes shipping, (again thats less than $89.99) took me another minute to find it

Like I said, easy and there were plenty of cheap deals (especially with the i5 750) and I didn't even get to AMD, so I will re-iterated: I'm correct, you are wrong. Its funny that you would even think its difficult to find cheap old parts, do you even know what most people do with their old PCs? they sell them, and between now and 2010 is a very very VERY long gap, with LOTS of old parts for the taking, the thing is, most people buy new parts, so there is a large supply but low demand on old parts, thats why its super easy to find things like used DELL computers, heck if I wanted to i could go to a friend's place and offer to buy his old DELL PC for a super cheap price and turn it into an xbox killer if I wanted to, its just that consoles are weak and most PC gamers prefer to have machines that perform DECENTLY at the very least, so of course it would cost more, better hardware costs more than weaker hardware, go figure!

and lol if you are going to say that PCs have different value propositions then why even bring up the argument "you can't build a 4k PC for $500 like the Xbox"? (I know YOU didn't per say but given the fact that you are pointlessly resisting my comment I will assume that you agree with idiots like TOONARMY20?)

@GarGx1: The idiot doesn't know what vapor cooling is and really has no reason to bring it up, its just a point he thought he can use against PCs, he himself doesn't actually care about that, I mean lol since when do console peasants care about cooling solution? what significance does that even have to do them? "Yo I got a PS4 Pro yo and it can do 4k yo! oh yeah! well I got an Xbox ONE X yo! and it has VAPOR COOLING YO!" XD so freakin stupid!

@ronvalencia: using an article from april? really? you do realize the FM7 demo came out this month? I thought I told you I'm only interested in real world data, not theoretical bullshit, and LOOOOOOOOOOOL at the dipping! You took a screenshot of the PC dipping for an instance and are using that as source reference? how pathetically narrow minded, you know I could also take a screenshot of the Xbox ONE X dipping to those levels and go "AH HA!" as well? I'm just not petty enough to go through the effort, sorry but i can't take you seriously any more, I'll just wait for the full game to come out, the benchmarks being released and then I will look back in this thread and proceed to laugh at you.

Dude I didn't say you can't find these, I said they aren't worth the value compared to consoles because of compromises, and not EVERYONE will be able to find these. They aren't being manufactured for mass consumption anymore... are your stupid or something? Youll also need to find a good case for $10 for both of those.

The reason why PC's have a different value proposition is both of those choices will incur a costly debt later or you'll have to buy more crap. Your comparison is stupid, your comping reduced costs parts to retail *brand new*. The fact that its brand new at $500 means every other avenue of buying it will be cheaper once its released, open box/refurbished/used will all be ways you can buy an xbox one x and be just as circumstantial as well since those don't have tons of availability.

Just because you can get something down to the same price doesn't mean its the same value.. and thats what people mean when they say you can't build a $500 that compares to xbox one x. You just can't without making compromises or finding parts dirt cheap. Which I'll point out xbox one x will inventively have cheaper ways of buying so now you'll have to make more compromises in power where xonex you won't. Your video and your argument is a good example of how stupid PC gamers can be trying to make a comparative cost argument. You'll compare the cost of shit parts on ebay to someone walking into bestbuy and buying a console at full price....

edit: I also live in america where it seems prices on ebay are more expensive, and there aren' that many options.

There are a lot of PC gamers on these forums, a lot have not got involved with any system wars discussions / fan boy rants etc.

Ps4 and Xbox fanboys are just as insufferable